Opening Doors on the wrong side - Question

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I was travelling on a service from LLandudno, which stopped Deganwy (request stop) there was someone on the platform, guard rushed back to rear doors and tried to open the doors on the wrong side.

A loud buzzer sounded at the same time.

Is it possible for a 158 to know if you are opening the wrong side doors?

I didn't think it was. If not, what was the buzzer and does the guard need to report this, even though the doors didn't open he did put his key in and almost open them

 

[GadgetMan]

The buzzer meant he'd left another door control panel switched on. Only one panel can be active at any time.

As to wrong side door release. You either release them or you don't, nearly released means nothing happened = nothing to report.

 

[LowLevel]

With the exception of possibly the new ASDO stuff on the South Western which I'm not sure of I don't think any train currently running would stop a wrong side door release and definitely not something as old as a 158.

No it doesn't need reporting.

 

[455driver]

I was travelling on a service from LLandudno, which stopped Deganwy (request stop) there was someone on the platform, guard rushed back to rear doors and tried to open the doors on the wrong side.

A loud buzzer sounded at the same time.

Is it possible for a 158 to know if you are opening the wrong side doors?

I didn't think it was. If not, what was the buzzer and does the guard need to report this, even though the doors didn't open he did put his key in and almost open them

Do you know for a fact that the Guard tried to open the doors on the wrong side or are you just assuming that is what happened?

If the guard did open the doors on the wrong side then that is a safety of the line incident and should be reported immediately.

The buzzer was probably because he had left a panel keyed in and then tried to key in at a different panel, that is a minor inconvenience and nothing more.

Would you like to rethink the thread title?

 

[Monty]

With the exception of possibly the new ASDO stuff on the South Western which I'm not sure of I don't think any train currently running would stop a wrong side door release and definitely not something as old as a 158.

No it doesn't need reporting.

None of the ASDO systems currently used on South Western would prevent a wrongside door release, that includes the 707s.

 

[455driver]

You can key in on any panel, it doesnt matter which side, its pressing the open buttons which is the important bit.

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't think any train currently running would stop a wrong side door release

700's through the core section.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Can any existing ASDO system be modified to prevent wrong side releases?

 

[hwl]

Can any existing ASDO system be modified to prevent wrong side releases?

Southern Electrostars got a Correct Side Door Enabling (CSDE) upgrade to the SDO system just under a decade ago. LU S and 09 stock and LO 378s have CSDE from new - all Bombardier stock.

 

[philthetube]

Southern Electrostars got a Correct Side Door Enabling (CSDE) upgrade to the SDO system just under a decade ago. LU S and 09 stock and LO 378s have CSDE from new - all Bombardier stock.

Also 95 and 96 stock from new.

To override it on an S stock is quite a palava, open cab door on correct side to check platform is there, operate correct side cut out switch which is located behind a glass panel then open doors using buttons on cab backwall. To close the cut out switch must be reset before the doors are closed.

If the train is not sure where it is the front three and rear three sets of doors will not open in case of short platforms.

 

[Muzer]

I might be imagining it, but I've heard once or twice guards using one long press on the buzzer ("stop") to be an active message to the driver to stop at a request stop. Perhaps the guard thought the driver wasn't going to stop for some reason? I don't know, I might be talking complete rubbish here.

 

[BestWestern]

I might be imagining it, but I've heard once or twice guards using one long press on the buzzer ("stop") to be an active message to the driver to stop at a request stop. Perhaps the guard thought the driver wasn't going to stop for some reason? I don't know, I might be talking complete rubbish here.

There are various methods in use of advising a Driver of whether or not there are passengers wishing to get off at a request stop. The old way of doing things at our place was to go to the front of the train and tell the Driver verbally, usually by popping one's head around the cab door. Then it was decided that opening the cab door might be a distraction, and so it changed to yelling at the Driver through the bulkhead (not at all distracting...), and then finally it was decided that a buzzer code would be best. Initially it was decided to give 'one' for "you need to stop at the approaching request stop", but of course 'one' already has a meaning, which is "stop very quickly indeed!", and so it was altered to 'two', meaning "you don't need to stop at the approaching request stop unless anybody wants to get on". So yes, you might have heard all manner of request stop chat across the network!

 

[tsr]

Southern Electrostars got a Correct Side Door Enabling (CSDE) upgrade to the SDO system just under a decade ago. LU S and 09 stock and LO 378s have CSDE from new - all Bombardier stock.

Southern's CSDE doesn't apply to all locations and, interestingly, doesn't apply to any stock with conductor door release (171s / 455s), none of which has any safety systems preventing wrong-side release. For the purpose of this discussion, it should also be noted that 377s have never had the ability for door release away from the active driver's cab.

377s on CSDE results broadly in a decent system, and one which would be useful across the board.

 

[Clansman]

Although uncommon, it's possible on a lot of relatively modern stock to open the doors on the wrong side. One such event recently happened on a Scotrail 170 - there was a photo circulating of the incident.

No idea up until what point trains weren't specified with SDO upon construction other than the 170s.

 

[the sniper]

Attempting to key in on the wrong side is by no means the same as opening the doors on the wrong side...

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is the CSDE upgrade to ASDO/SDO generally a hardware upgrade, software upgrade or both?

 

[Eric]

This happened at Bradford Forster Square platform three last year.

I reported it to Northern at the time because of the implications of someone falling off the train and onto the track.

 

[Moonshot]

This happened at Bradford Forster Square platform three last year.

I reported it to Northern at the time because of the implications of someone falling off the train and onto the track.

What happened and how did you report it?

 

[Moonshot]

Attempting to key in on the wrong side is by no means the same as opening the doors on the wrong side...

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Indeed it is. As pointed out , the loud buzz is indicative of 2 DKS switches being live.........on 158s. the DKS is actually located in each door panel which is an unusual feature of 158s but it does mean that doors can be operated from anywhere on the train. On conductor operated trains in general, a guard will have to step out onto the platform first before releasing doors. In the highly unlikely event of a guard actually stepping out of a local door on the wrong side, he or she would be unable to give door release for the obvious reason.

Its worth pointing out that there were 42 door release incidents between October 2010 and March 2013 ( last figures I have ) across the uk network. Almost all of these related to driver operated doors.

 

[physics34]

This happened at Bradford Forster Square platform three last year.

I reported it to Northern at the time because of the implications of someone falling off the train and onto the track.

please be careful when "grassing" up staff.....

 

[TheEdge]

Attempting to key in on the wrong side is by no means the same as opening the doors on the wrong side...

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

It is, its a growing issue sadly in there days of reporting everyone to the authorities despite not knowing what they are reporting (see also dashcams)

Rather like the driver who was reported by a member of the public for passing a red signal and not reporting it. Sadly this dutiful informant wasn't fully aware of the significance of the two white lights under the red signal.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Another fact to try and argue against full DOO. It's harder to unwittingly release the wrong side if the guard opens his local door to find there isn't a platform there.

 

[Bromley boy]

Although uncommon, it's possible on a lot of relatively modern stock to open the doors on the wrong side. One such event recently happened on a Scotrail 170 - there was a photo circulating of the incident.

No idea up until what point trains weren't specified with SDO upon construction other than the 170s.

SDO will release the appropriate number of doors for the location but won't, in itself, prevent a wrong side door release.

We have a "cross the cab" policy which I believe has largely eliminated the problem at my TOC. If the platform is offside you are required by the driving policy to leave the driver's seat and control the doors using the offside switches.

 

[Bromley boy]

Another fact to try and argue against full DOO. It's harder to unwittingly release the wrong side if the guard opens his local door to find there isn't a platform there.

True, although the driver releases the doors on many non-DOO services, with the guard only being responsible for closure and dispatch of the train.

 

[6Gman]

I would be very, very worried if any member of staff wasn't aware of which side was the platform side at Deganwy!

And surprised.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Do you know for a fact that the Guard tried to open the doors on the wrong side or are you just assuming that is what happened?

If the guard did open the doors on the wrong side then that is a safety of the line incident and should be reported immediately.

The buzzer was probably because he had left a panel

keyed in and then tried to key in at a different panel, that is a minor inconvenience and nothing more.

Would you like to rethink the thread title?

Would I like to rethink the thread title.....no

It Is as I said. A question.

To clarify. I was sat at the rear. Looking through the vestibule doors. The guard came, (train had already stopped at Deganwy) put in his key, on the wrong side, loud buzzer went off. He went to correct side and opened doors as per procedure.

 

[craigybagel]

Indeed it is. As pointed out , the loud buzz is indicative of 2 DKS switches being live.........on 158s. the DKS is actually located in each door panel which is an unusual feature of 158s but it does mean that doors can be operated from anywhere on the train. On conductor operated trains in general, a guard will have to step out onto the platform first before releasing doors. In the highly unlikely event of a guard actually stepping out of a local door on the wrong side, he or she would be unable to give door release for the obvious reason.

In addition to this excellent reply, it's also worth pointing out that the positioning of the door controls on a 158 is such that unless you're standing right beside the conductor, you won't be able to see what is going on. If, as seems most likely, the OP was in the saloon, all they will have been able to see is which side of the train the conductor was standing on.

Most likely scenario - conductor operates doors from right hand side (facing forwards) at Llandudno. On departure, conductor forgets to key out of the DKS. At Deganwy, the conductor keys in at a DKS on the left hand side, setting off the buzzer. The conductor then crosses back over to the right side, keys out of that DKS, then goes back to the left to try again.

Happens all the time, nothing to see her, move along.

 

[6Gman]

I was travelling on a service from LLandudno, which stopped Deganwy (request stop) there was someone on the platform, guard rushed back to rear doors and tried to open the doors on the wrong side.

A loud buzzer sounded at the same time.

Is it possible for a 158 to know if you are opening the wrong side doors?

I didn't think it was. If not, what was the buzzer and does the guard need to report this, even though the doors didn't open he did put his key in and almost open them

As has been explained this may well not have been the case.

 

[Loop & Link]

In addition to this excellent reply, it's also worth pointing out that the positioning of the door controls on a 158 is such that unless you're standing right beside the conductor, you won't be able to see what is going on. If, as seems most likely, the OP was in the saloon, all they will have been able to see is which side of the train the conductor was standing on.

Most likely scenario - conductor operates doors from right hand side (facing forwards) at Llandudno. On departure, conductor forgets to key out of the DKS. At Deganwy, the conductor keys in at a DKS on the left hand side, setting off the buzzer. The conductor then crosses back over to the right side, keys out of that DKS, then goes back to the left to try again.

Happens all the time, nothing to see her, move along.

Thank you!

I'd be astounded if this wasn't 100% exactly what happened.

 

[185]

I don't know a single guard who hasn't left the DKS on and tried to key in somewhere else on the train. Anyone who says they haven't is probably lying. Buzzzzzzzzzz. Couple that with the OFF/ON indicator dials on some sets being loose, it's hard to work out if the switch is left on or not.

As for wrong side release, I've never wilfully/accidentally opened a wrongside, however I do know a particular 170 that was renowned for opening the lot every time you released the platform side doors, apparently due to damage in the coupler's electric box. Several guards were stood down until a company finally admitted they had a problem with that set.

For the instance mentioned at Deganwy, I agree the only explanation of a long buzzer on a 158 is 2xDKS on at the same time and nothing to do with no platform present. For a 158, done thoroughly - the start of shift door test, checking all doors work means the offside doors are opened regularly (without passengers on) and the train certainly does not know where it is in relation to a platform.