They're not branded Gatwick Express, they're branded "express". And I cannot see any reason for the distinction other than a brazen attempt to charge more. Especially when it can be argued that Southern Only tickets must be valid on it.
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Oops Gatwick Express is not fastest
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They're not branded Gatwick Express, they're branded "express". And I cannot see any reason for the distinction other than a brazen attempt to charge more. Especially when it can be argued that Southern Only tickets must be valid on it.
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swt_passenger
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The line diagrams in the latest RUSs seem to show 8 tph Thameslink through Gatwick, ie 4 from Brighton as now, and 2 each from Horsham and Three Bridges. However the latter may well be running via Redhill and not transferring to the fast lines until south of Croydon - so may not be as competitively timed as the Brightons.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Thanks for confirming.
I appreciate that these things are still a bit "up in the air" (if you'll excuse the pun...) but there's even less need for a dedicated Gatwick "express' if Thameslink is twice the frequency...
...especially as Thameslink will connect with Crossrail (so links to much of London)
This isn't actually a southern issue. Govia have been trying to cut the gat ex and incorporate it into the Brighton express since taking both franchises. They have debranded as much as possible (442s are 'express'. They do not say Gatwick anywhere on them) and there was even talk of merging the gat ex drivers and train crew with south central Victoria drivers but the DfT won't allow it. Therefore they have to keep the service separate from the other BML services.
ushawk
Established Member
I do use the Gatwick Express in the morning peaks from Gatwick to Victoria as i change there from a London Bridge train (Victoria is closer to my work), its usually only half full.
I think Southern should just abolish the GatEx brand and incorporate it into Southern and just advertise it as a non-stop service and should also let Southern Only tickets be used, a lot of airport passengers dont even use it due to the difference in the price (which clogs up the other trains), defeats the object of having it really. Maybe cut it down to 2 tph and run it with 1x422 in the off-peak and 2x422 in the peak so then additional paths get freed up.
I think Southern should just abolish the GatEx brand and incorporate it into Southern and just advertise it as a non-stop service and should also let Southern Only tickets be used, a lot of airport passengers dont even use it due to the difference in the price (which clogs up the other trains), defeats the object of having it really. Maybe cut it down to 2 tph and run it with 1x422 in the off-peak and 2x422 in the peak so then additional paths get freed up.
lookingforit35
Member
Correct. The 442s were originally rolled out with "Gatwick Express" proudly showing in large letters on the sides of the front and rear carriages, in the recognised gatex font. Then the "Gatwick" wording was removed, leaving just the slightly odd term "Express".
swt_passenger
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After the latest ruling maybe they should reduce the wording to "Excess", and explain it is about the fares...
NightatLaira
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I personally think it should remain as a non-stop service from Victoria to Gatwick with the current frequenices and timings - the train's especially built for the route with additional luggage space and a proper luggage van. Even if it has to crawl through Clapham and East croydon - the added hassle of adding in a stop there combined with the complications of commuters trying to use it as well would outweigh the benefit.
What would be more sensible though is if they removed the premium ticket prices. Then if you could board a Gatwick Express with a cheap fare ticket you'd actually get people using it more! And I believe this would apply to first class as much as standard. Then they wouldn't be running around empty all the time, and FCC routes to London Bridge/ St Pancras International would have boosted capacity...
What would be more sensible though is if they removed the premium ticket prices. Then if you could board a Gatwick Express with a cheap fare ticket you'd actually get people using it more! And I believe this would apply to first class as much as standard. Then they wouldn't be running around empty all the time, and FCC routes to London Bridge/ St Pancras International would have boosted capacity...
I think it should call Gatwick, East Croydon, Clapham (set down north, pick up south - not call peaks) then Victoria.
Then most other [EDIT: Victoria, not Thameslink] trains through Gatwick (Littlehamptons/Ore/Eastbournes etc.) should be pick up only southbound and set down only northbound.
This and being regular fares
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class377man
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Fair point re KXSP, brain lapse on my part. I still think most people will use Victoria overall, especially until the Thameslink is up and running properly seven days a week.
Won't London Bridge be out of bounds for Thameslink during the rush hour come the end of the programme?
Surreytraveller
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the reason for the removal of the word 'Gatwick' is because the stock is also used on the Brighton Expresses. It would confuse the public even more if 'Gatwick Express' trains were used on services that didn't even stop at Gatwick!
Ah but this could add further confusion as "Gatwick Express" costs extra while the other "Brighton express" (Which is further) does not cost more to travel on.
Caped Crusader
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Errr..not 100% factually correct.
For 3 or more people travelling at peak time the Gatwick Express is cheaper to Victoria than the Southern train due to group fares being valid at any time on the Express.
Single - Gatwick to Victoria Southern £12.50 per person
Single - 3 for 2 or 4 for 2 - Gatwick to Victoria Express £35.80
(For 4 people travelling at peak time the Gatwick Express to Victoria is cheaper than the FCC fare to London Bridge and stations to St Pancras.)
Shocking isn't it
Errr..not 100% factually correct.
For 3 or more people travelling at peak time the Gatwick Express is cheaper to Victoria than the Southern train due to group fares being valid at any time on the Express.
Single - Gatwick to Victoria Southern £12.50 per person
Single - 3 for 2 or 4 for 2 - Gatwick to Victoria Express £35.80
(For 4 people travelling at peak time the Gatwick Express to Victoria is cheaper than the FCC fare to London Bridge and stations to St Pancras.)
Shocking isn't it
This is just getting silly. I can see why people think the national fares struture is confusing when the fare structure of just one TOC on one route is confusing
Caped Crusader
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From Gatwick to London Bridge there are 4 fares available and there also are 4 Gatwick to London Zone 1-6 Travelcards.
FCC only, Southern only, Not Gatwick Express and Any Permitted.
Such a simple journey so many choices
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lookingforit35
Member
Well not quite. The 442s currently being used were built for use out of Waterloo on the "Wessex Electrics" route. I guess one could argue they were especially "rebuilt" for Gatwick, but there's lots of debate about whether they are actually suited to this service (lack of double doors, insufficient luggage space etc).
bb21
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From Gatwick to London Bridge there are 4 fares available and there also are 4 Gatwick to London Zone 1-6 Travelcards.
FCC only, Southern only, Not Gatwick Express and Any Permitted.
Such a simple journey so many choices
I must say that Southern Only is offered on this flow, given that SN prices the inter-available fare.
Dare i say that I find the 442s much more comfortable before their refurbishment?
RobShipway
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When I lived in Bournemouth back in the 1990's I used to find that the Class 442's where very comfortable with a smooth ride, but having seen photos of the insides since they were rebuilt it does look to me as if they are more cramped with the seating capacity than they were before.
I agree that the GatEx service, should just remain a non stop service from Gatwick to Victoria which surely is what previously did make it the fastest service into London?
I agree that the GatEx service, should just remain a non stop service from Gatwick to Victoria which surely is what previously did make it the fastest service into London?
shinkansen1966
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swt_passenger
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The whole point of the programme at London Bridge is to give Thameslink 18 tph through London Bridge station at all times. There will be two dedicated platforms, and the Bermondsey flyovers provide two dedicated non conflicting tracks for Thameslink's services from the SN and SE routes through to Blackfriars...
OTOH during the later stages of the London Bridge rebuild Thameslink will likely be diverted via Elephant and Castle all day...
Minstral25
Established Member
Dare I say that the Gatwick and Brighton Expresses ought be merged.
It's already done in the rush hour but extend this all day will mean 4 fast trains to Brighton from Victoria and also with Thameslink four from London Bridge. The way it is currently going hourly there will be 4 Thameslink, 4 Gatwick Express and 4 from Victoria (if southern get there way to make it 4 from 3 current). If the Gatwick Express and Victoria are merged then there will be 4 spare paths an hour going through the East Croydon Bottleneck to the benefit of many overcrowded services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be fair to the 442's they were rebuilt for the Brighton GatEx extension services which are outer suburban commuter trains really. The 460's could never have coped with these services due to lack of seats. Now they are used on the regular services just to Gatwick they are not ideal but as both ends are terminus's it sort of works as dwell times are unimportant.
It's already done in the rush hour but extend this all day will mean 4 fast trains to Brighton from Victoria and also with Thameslink four from London Bridge. The way it is currently going hourly there will be 4 Thameslink, 4 Gatwick Express and 4 from Victoria (if southern get there way to make it 4 from 3 current). If the Gatwick Express and Victoria are merged then there will be 4 spare paths an hour going through the East Croydon Bottleneck to the benefit of many overcrowded services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be fair to the 442's they were rebuilt for the Brighton GatEx extension services which are outer suburban commuter trains really. The 460's could never have coped with these services due to lack of seats. Now they are used on the regular services just to Gatwick they are not ideal but as both ends are terminus's it sort of works as dwell times are unimportant.
shinkansen1966
Member
So I do. And judging by comments here, so do many others.
As I understand it, after pressure from the owners of Gatwick Aiport, the DfT did not want merger of the services.
Yep it makes absolute sense, path-wise. One pair could be non-stop to Brighton, and one could stop at a couple of places.
The extra paths could even be for relief services to Hove for example, which could also stop at Gatwick to help spread airport passengers and their luggage around more Southern services.
The extra paths could even be for relief services to Hove for example, which could also stop at Gatwick to help spread airport passengers and their luggage around more Southern services.
shinkansen1966
Member
I agree, I agree, I agree.
Trouble is Gatwick Airport want a dedicate airport services for their passengers rather than having to share with commuters. Never mind the fact that fleets of passengers prefer the budget airline shuttle vans.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Can you imagine if Manchester Airport took the same attitude? And the supine railway gave them what they wanted?
(Or Southampton/ Birmingham/ Liverpool etc?)
Not having a go at you, am criticising Gatwick Airport
87015
Established Member
The problem is that if you merge the two you either have to add a stop with a large dwell time on the Brighton fasts and loose a load of line capacity, or leave it as the usual dwell time and watch performance on the Brighton mainline sink like a stone as station overtime goes through the roof.
Manchester Airport, or any of the others mentioned, have never had a dedicated francishe, Gatwick did, so it's no wonder they didn;t want to lose it. I expect concessions were made to soften the blow, depsite the fact that it has just confused the issue.
swt_passenger
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I found a consultation about this on the old DfT website a while back that explained that the DfT's original main proposal was to bin the service completely.
BAA (as it was then) seemed to think the train permanently waiting in the platform was essential - so they came up with most of the funding for the new platform layout at Gatwick in order to get round all the arguments about line capacity, with the eventual layout allowing for GatEx trains to terminate and turnback between the up and down fast lines.
I suspect this cash input is what swayed DfT into keeping the offpeak service as it is...
BAA (as it was then) seemed to think the train permanently waiting in the platform was essential - so they came up with most of the funding for the new platform layout at Gatwick in order to get round all the arguments about line capacity, with the eventual layout allowing for GatEx trains to terminate and turnback between the up and down fast lines.
I suspect this cash input is what swayed DfT into keeping the offpeak service as it is...
BR thought it was a useful tool to help direct airport passengers to the Express, rathe rthan have them crowd on to already busy services from the coast.
To be honest, I can see the sense in that, but I'm not sure why the airport operator should be so concerned about railway matters, except for the fact that they would find it useful for their own marketing as a rival to Heathrow.
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