MCR247
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Without them being concerned would we have a line to Heathrow which wasn't funded by the railways?
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Oops Gatwick Express is not fastest
- Thread starter Minstral25
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Without them being concerned would we have a line to Heathrow which wasn't funded by the railways?
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R
RailUK Forums
No, but that may not be a bad thing!
tbtc
Veteran Member
True, so why did Gatwick justify a separate franchise, whilst Stansted Express is part of NXEA/ Manchester Airport gets "common or garden" TPE/Northern services etc?
(and, yes, I'd get rid of Heathrow Express as a stand alone organisation too - especially given the high costs of "micro" franchises)
Heathrow Express isnt a franchise at all, Gatwick airport is nearly twice the size of either Stanstead or Manchester in passenger terms.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I would say Stansted had an express service any more, the difference is the terminal passengers get on first and the commuters fight for the seats that are left!
BAA doesn't 'own' Gatwick anymore, so I wonder if it's time to look at the whole thing all over again?
A train that starts at Gatwick is obviously good for tourists with bags, not having to mix with people already on the train. What formations do they run in? Could one set be locked OOU until it arrives at Gatwick from Brighton, thus mixing two services with just one path/driver?
From Victoria it doesn't matter obviously as it starts there.
A train that starts at Gatwick is obviously good for tourists with bags, not having to mix with people already on the train. What formations do they run in? Could one set be locked OOU until it arrives at Gatwick from Brighton, thus mixing two services with just one path/driver?
From Victoria it doesn't matter obviously as it starts there.
shinkansen1966
Member
The Gatwick Excess price differential is particularly hard to justify.
We can only dream of a time when Gatwick Excess is part of the standard fare structure complete with Network Card discounts, and Heathrow Express accepts Oyster cards and is part of standard TfL fares structure, too.
We can only dream of a time when Gatwick Excess is part of the standard fare structure complete with Network Card discounts, and Heathrow Express accepts Oyster cards and is part of standard TfL fares structure, too.
It would be nice for HEX to simply offer discounts for railcards from TVMs (or indeed, on the train, with the surcharge then added on top). They argue it's not possible as everyone would get a discounted ticket, but every train has a TM!
A poor excuse, but if they won't even do that then there's bugger all chance of them accepting Oyster or becoming part of the zones. BAA must make a mint and would argue they helped fund the service. Only if BAA was ever forced to sell and it became public owned or something might that change.
A poor excuse, but if they won't even do that then there's bugger all chance of them accepting Oyster or becoming part of the zones. BAA must make a mint and would argue they helped fund the service. Only if BAA was ever forced to sell and it became public owned or something might that change.
shinkansen1966
Member
Think OPRAF was replaced by SRA which was later scrapped. DfT now does franchising. Three changes in less than 20 years. And we wonder why costs are out of control !
swt_passenger
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Superseded by the SRA in 2001 IIRC. The job of OPRAF is done by DfT since 2006 - and is regulated by ORR.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Maybe as well as demanding franchises are set for at least fifteen years, we should insist that the Government department in charge of franchising stays the same for at least a similar time?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was careful not to call HEX a "franchise". It must be a waste of resources having a separate organisation for such a small number of trains though
ushawk
Established Member
Should merge the 2 fast Brightons an hour into the 4tph service Brighton trains could leave at 15/45 and the 00/30 could remain non-stop to Gatwick. The Brighton stops can remain the same as the fasts at the moment (fast from Croydon, but obviously having additional calls at Gatwick, which would probably annoy people in Brighton). Maybe even extend one to Eastbourne (could call at Lewes, Haywards Heath, Gatwick then fast to London) - though of course i am dreaming there, maybe one for the fantasy topic.
4tph is excessive for how used it is, maybe that only in peaks, as i previously said.
4tph is excessive for how used it is, maybe that only in peaks, as i previously said.
I used to use Gatwick a lot, but always travelled on GatEx with an ordinary ticket, including Network Awaybreaks when they still existed. This was because I was going right through London, so I believe it was perfectly valid. Thameslink was a valid option, but that would have involved an awkward climb out of KXT with heavy luggage. StP is an altogether better option.
Really, GatEx can no longer justify premium fares. There is no special infrastructure and no real advantage other than having more luggage space. There might be an argument for it if they wanted to keep non-airport passengers away from it, but that does not really apply, since there is no real speed advantage.
I agree with that. All we are really paying for is use of the dedicated tunnel. That tunnel is a cash cow for BAA, which is probably why there is not a dedicated light rail/bus link from West Drayton (which would allow main line expresses to stop there). I don't know about maintenance and operating costs (which must be high) but it surely cannot justify a fare of £9:50 per passenger to use it (standard on HC, just from Hayes). Really, the government should buy the tunnel, sell it to Network Rail and merge HEX with FGW or its successor. They could sweeten that by offering to pay for a light rail link under the M25 to West Drayton (or Heathrow Airport Parkway if they prefer). HEX fares would then go into the standard ATOC fare structure and drop to normal economic levels. This should really happen before Crossrail gets going - i.e. right now.
Really, GatEx can no longer justify premium fares. There is no special infrastructure and no real advantage other than having more luggage space. There might be an argument for it if they wanted to keep non-airport passengers away from it, but that does not really apply, since there is no real speed advantage.
I agree with that. All we are really paying for is use of the dedicated tunnel. That tunnel is a cash cow for BAA, which is probably why there is not a dedicated light rail/bus link from West Drayton (which would allow main line expresses to stop there). I don't know about maintenance and operating costs (which must be high) but it surely cannot justify a fare of £9:50 per passenger to use it (standard on HC, just from Hayes). Really, the government should buy the tunnel, sell it to Network Rail and merge HEX with FGW or its successor. They could sweeten that by offering to pay for a light rail link under the M25 to West Drayton (or Heathrow Airport Parkway if they prefer). HEX fares would then go into the standard ATOC fare structure and drop to normal economic levels. This should really happen before Crossrail gets going - i.e. right now.
I'm sure the FGW TVMs at PAD will issue you discounted HEX tickets.
If so, it's even more stupid they won't at Heathrow. I've flown back many times to see long queues, or at night, an unmanned ticket desk (maybe they're around, but the point is - they're not available to sell a ticket). So off to the TVM to pay full price, or wait for the next train.
It's very frustrating as it's hard to time things to get a train as it is, given the unknowns at an airport (is IRIS working, will the bags come out quickly etc).
It's very frustrating as it's hard to time things to get a train as it is, given the unknowns at an airport (is IRIS working, will the bags come out quickly etc).
It's very annoying this is only available on the level above the platforms. It's a con, basically.
Sign up for the HEx mailing list and they have 40-50% off deals all the time. And they're very flexible with tickets - they're advance but can be used any time within a month! So no need to guess what train you'll need...
Or there are some HEx mirror sites via some of the airlines which are cheaper. I think the ANA one is best...
Sign up for the HEx mailing list and they have 40-50% off deals all the time. And they're very flexible with tickets - they're advance but can be used any time within a month! So no need to guess what train you'll need...
Or there are some HEx mirror sites via some of the airlines which are cheaper. I think the ANA one is best...
Just the queen...
If you want a decent railcard discount, get an HC single to Hayes & Harlington and go to the ticket office there. Takes a bit of energy to haul your luggage up the steps, so it's usually best to buy in advance from somewhere else before you go (or simply to get a return from your station of origin). Travelcards are also valid to Hayes, and you can buy on board on down trains.
I do take HC quite often, but late at night it can mean a lengthy wait and - to be honest - I just want to get home. This is why I end up paying more from the TVM (I won't go so far to pay the stupid premium on the train too).
As long as I plan ahead properly, I'll take HC to the airport wherever possible and just buy a single, with discount, from Hayes & Harlington. It really doesn't cost much at all that way but they do only run every 30 minutes so missing one can impact on the time you have at the airport. I can run late, but my wife likes to be early (and then sit around doing nothing!) and can panic otherwise.
As long as I plan ahead properly, I'll take HC to the airport wherever possible and just buy a single, with discount, from Hayes & Harlington. It really doesn't cost much at all that way but they do only run every 30 minutes so missing one can impact on the time you have at the airport. I can run late, but my wife likes to be early (and then sit around doing nothing!) and can panic otherwise.
NightatLaira
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Fair point - but the Vaders were made for it. I'm all for Airport Express services - I just object to charging extra for them - by doing so, they just make other services crammed which is completely counter-effective.
Imagine how much quieter the Piccadilly line would be west of Earl's Court if Heathrow Express was priced at a fiver from Paddington.
Minstral25
Established Member
Good idea, make them all 12 coach dedicated 377 stock so there is plenty of room and the 00/30 could extend to Eastbourne and Littlehampton respectively. North of Gatwick they could alternate stopping at East Croydon and Clapham so more passengers can use them and clear the local trains.
Stock is all wrong on the BML currently - yesterday I picked up a ex-Portsmouth service - 8 coach 377 service - at Redhill to goto East Croydon for Thameslink. Off Peak at 11am the service was standing room only!
At East Croydon my Thameslink service was 20 minutes late so I watched the other services. The Brighton fast was a 12 coach train less than 20% full - masses of empty seats, the Brighton slow was an 8 coach train and about 75% full and two Gatwick Expresses came through both 5 coach 442's and about 50% full. A Portsmouth train went southbound and again * coaches and fully standing.
I really don't understand why Southern don't run the long trains on the busy services - they seem to have a fixation with making the Brighton/Gatwick services run empty and everything else packed full.
The Problem is that the Portsmouth/ Southampton services dont justify more coaches after Horsham and in an idea world would be non stop from Gatwick to East Croydon. Unfortunately that would introduce a conflicting move to the fast lines at Three Bridges that would reduce capacity.
Its still not clear how the new Thameslink services are going to be accommodated on BML without considerable infrastructure expenditure especially since the coastway services have been pulled from Thameslink.
Its still not clear how the new Thameslink services are going to be accommodated on BML without considerable infrastructure expenditure especially since the coastway services have been pulled from Thameslink.
Minstral25
Established Member
The solution to lack of use south of Horsham perhaps is to add 4 coaches at Horsham just doing the Horsham to London part of the run. They are already joining two trains at this point and the time taken for the extra unit to be attached would be negligible, especially as it could be waiting in the platform for the slow portion to arrive.
In any case they need to look at because even off- peak the trains are standing only north of Gatwick, which is made worse by them using the Gatwick Express platforms (as they are on the slow lines) and thus attracting a lot of airport traffic.
The New Thameslink services will be inserted by removing existing Southern services and replacing with Thameslink.
There aren't any FGW machines at Heathrow Central, only HEX machines.
Not too sure how fully the NRCoC apply to HEX, but if the ticket desk is unmanned you ought to be allowed to buy on board with your railcard at the discounted price.
Will the Gatwick Express change to the fast lines once the current works are finished?
They should do!
I think to logically split travellers and Brightonians would be just to tell them to use different parts of the train. It's not perfect, but people heading to Brighton gravitate to the front anyway - and people with luggage get on anyway.
So if you just had platform staff at Victoria and CJ trying to split them a bit more through announcements etc.... it might be enough if all are 12 car.
I think to logically split travellers and Brightonians would be just to tell them to use different parts of the train. It's not perfect, but people heading to Brighton gravitate to the front anyway - and people with luggage get on anyway.
So if you just had platform staff at Victoria and CJ trying to split them a bit more through announcements etc.... it might be enough if all are 12 car.
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