Oops Gatwick Express is not fastest

[Minstral25]

Article from BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14292920

So the fastest way to London isn't. Not only is this service blocking 4 paths an hour to Victoria for virtually no passengers but it is not really an express...

 

[cle]

It's true. I think that with a clear run and honest timetabling the run could be 25 mins? The London Bridge - East Croydon section is vastly over-padded sometimes.

A Charing Cross - Waterloo East - London Bridge - East Croydon - Gatwick Airport - Brighton 2tph service would be good I always thought, as a prestige service.

 

[Failed Unit]

A statement from Southern said: "Southern is disappointed to receive the Advertising Standards Authority findings on the claim that Gatwick Express is the fastest way to central London from Gatwick Airport."

Victoria more central London than London Bridge, depends on your ultimate destination!

London bridge has tube conections to most of the city (or you can walk from Blackfrairs) - Isn't zone 1 central London?

I must admit Gatwick express has lost a lot of its charm but the fact it is called "Gatwick Express" gets the tourists. They could not think of getting a train to Bedford when they want to go to London! Even the Southern regional services are only timetable 2 minutes slower!

 

[tbtc]

I must admit Gatwick express has lost a lot of its charm but the fact it is called "Gatwick Express" gets the tourists

I admit I've only used Gatwick Airport once, but my impression of it is that its mainly UK people using it for holidays abroad (rather than foreign people using it to arrive in the UK), so there's not really the need for a "premium" service attracting rich people coming to the UK?

 

[Minstral25]

Yea - Gatwick Express just gets the tourists and businessmen.

Most Southern and FCC services north of Gatwick are often full of travellers with their bags realising that GatEx is overpriced or wanting to get to Croydon/London Bridge/Clapham Jnct rather than just Victoria.

 

[Failed Unit]

I admit I've only used Gatwick Airport once, but my impression of it is that its mainly UK people using it for holidays abroad (rather than foreign people using it to arrive in the UK), so there's not really the need for a "premium" service attracting rich people coming to the UK?

Thameslink to me is by far the more useful route.

London Bridge (Most Southern services and Jubilee and Northern)
Blackfriars (Circle and District - so does Victoria)
City (Does what it says on the tin)
Farringdon (Circle, Met and Hammersmith and City - Cross-link to come)
St Pancras (the north)

The Southern Local
Clapham Junction is good for changing to most of SWT and other Southern services.

So the destination of Victoria is really for people who are in walking or the Victoria line

 

[telstarbox]

Even the Southern non-express services to Victoria are only a couple of minutes slower, and much cheaper!

 

[Mike395]

Even the Southern non-express services to Victoria are only a couple of minutes slower, and much cheaper!

Indeed, and this in my mind makes me wonder whether we may eventually see Southern being forced to remove the Gatwick Express as a premium service. It's clear that it's a bit of a moneyspinner as it stands, especially with regards to the issue of Southern Only tickets...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Indeed, and this in my mind makes me wonder whether we may eventually see Southern being forced to remove the Gatwick Express as a premium service. It's clear that it's a bit of a moneyspinner as it stands, especially with regards to the issue of Southern Only tickets...

Excepting the SO ticket issue, why would they be forced to remove the Gatwick Express brand? Surely it's no different to the EC Flying Scotsman brand - a premium service.

 

[cle]

I think it's a waste of paths. If it was timetabled at 31 mins with stops at CJ and EC as standard, would the sky fall in for their marketing?

It'd make things much easier, clear platform space at Gatwick and probably improve reliability by harmonising stopping patterns through CJ and EC, i.e. everything stops.

There would be 8-9tph from Victoria to Gatwick off peak so you wouldn't even need their clockface USP because the frequency would negate timetables.

 

[gordonthemoron]

except the EC Flying Scotsman doesn't charge a premium price

 

[Mike395]

Excepting the SO ticket issue, why would they be forced to remove the Gatwick Express brand? Surely it's no different to the EC Flying Scotsman brand - a premium service.

True, that wasnt the best wording in my post there.... I hadnt had any caffeine at that point

What I meant to say is that I think there needs to be more transparency that it's operated by Southern - and I don't think this will happen unless the DfT force their hand on this. They seem to make a point of intimating that the Gatwick Express service is a separate TOC when it isnt....

 

[paul1609]

Article from BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14292920

So the fastest way to London isn't. Not only is this service blocking 4 paths an hour to Victoria for virtually no passengers but it is not really an express...

Err except its carrying close to 6 mulluon passengers a year and was the fastest growing line in Govias latest report.

 

[Failed Unit]

Excepting the SO ticket issue, why would they be forced to remove the Gatwick Express brand? Surely it's no different to the EC Flying Scotsman brand - a premium service.

Depends on how you look it - you don't pay more to use the Flying Scotsman than the standard.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

True, that wasnt the best wording in my post there.... I hadnt had any caffeine at that point

What I meant to say is that I think there needs to be more transparency that it's operated by Southern - and I don't think this will happen unless the DfT force their hand on this. They seem to make a point of intimating that the Gatwick Express service is a separate TOC when it isnt....

I see your point, but personally I do not think there is an issue with that. Obviously they need to sort out whether or not they should accept SO tickets - I suspect that rests on how Gatwick Express is set up with DaFT.

 

[tbtc]

Err except its carrying close to 6 mulluon passengers a year and was the fastest growing line in Govias latest report.

Those valuable paths out of Victoria were "normal" tickets to be accepted too.

Seems strange that you can get four paths an hour from Victoria through Clapham Junction and East Croydon for this relatively quiet (but expensive) service, when other services on that line are needing twelve coach trains because there's no spare capacity.

 

[paul1609]

I havent used the extended Gatwick Express services as I now live in Kent so cant comment on the loadings but during many years commuting to London the real peak capacity issues were from Haywards Heath to East Croydon and on to London Bridge.
East Croydon to Victoria was relativly quiet. Off peak the demand was certainly towards Victoria.
Im under the impression that the realcapacity issues are at Windmill Junction north of Fast Croydon.

 

[embers25]

I wonder if it's only the fastest growing line in that report because of the Brighton extensions and nothing to do with the Gatwick to Vic bit. Given Southern have lost this one its about time someone took them to court over their claim that Southern Gatwick Express isn't valid with Southern Only tickets.

 

[Failed Unit]

One of my offices is about 10 minutes walk from Blackfrairs, most of my collegues still use the Gatwick express simply because the don't know about Thameslink. Likewise they don't know how little difference the Southern service makes timewise, they don't understand that if you just miss the express at 1230 waiting until 1245 just isn't worth it. I shows past Gatwick express marketing was good but I wonder if thameslink (FCC) will be promoting their fastest link to London.

 

[class377man]

I think it's a little misleading as Victoria itself and the Tube and bus routes that run through it are far more convenient than London Bridge for most if not all tourist destinations. It's better for getting to most of the other London terminus stations too. The TL core stations are a pain in the arse as well due to the weekday only operation, Blackfriars being closed and Farringdon being apparently being a nightmare (never actually used it myself).

I think most people would prefer Victoria even if it is a whole two minutes(!) longer.

Having said that, Victoria is a long way from perfect at the moment as well.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think it's a little misleading as Victoria itself and the Tube and bus routes that run through it are far more convenient than London Bridge for most if not all tourist destinations. It's better for getting to most of the other London terminus stations too. The TL core stations are a pain in the arse as well due to the weekday only operation, Blackfriars being closed and Farringdon being apparently being a nightmare (never actually used it myself).

I think most people would prefer Victoria even if it is a whole two minutes(!) longer.

Having said that, Victoria is a long way from perfect at the moment as well.

Bus maybe but tube?

The Victoria line -v- The Northern and Jubilee?

If you want the city London Bridge wins
If you want the West End then Victoria maybe wins.

A day out on say Baker Street I guess all bets are off

 

[cjohnson]

I think it's a little misleading as Victoria itself and the Tube and bus routes that run through it are far more convenient than London Bridge for most if not all tourist destinations. It's better for getting to most of the other London terminus stations too. The TL core stations are a pain in the arse as well due to the weekday only operation, Blackfriars being closed and Farringdon being apparently being a nightmare (never actually used it myself).

I think most people would prefer Victoria even if it is a whole two minutes(!) longer.

Having said that, Victoria is a long way from perfect at the moment as well.

But presumably tourists coming from Gatwick will be more interested in where the station is in relation to their hotel... as I doubt many will head straight to, for example, Buckingham Palace with luggage in tow...

 

[class377man]

Bus maybe but tube?

The Victoria line -v- The Northern and Jubilee?

If you want the city London Bridge wins
If you want the West End then Victoria maybe wins.

A day out on say Baker Street I guess all bets are off

Most people getting off a plane at Gatwick and heading into London aren't going straight to the city, and Victoria is better for the City than London Bridge is for the West End thanks to the Circle/District lines and the walk either across the bridge or from Bank to Monument. Victoria is also better for the museums at South Kesington.

If you want the western side of the Jubilee line I'm pretty sure it's quicker to go to Victoria and change at Green Park than go direct from London Bridge (there isn't much difference either way mind you) and the Bank branch of the Northern line isn't much use for most people other than city workers who'll only be travelling in any great numbers off-peak.

For people going beyond London, Victoria better for Euston, Paddington and Marylebone (although with Euston the difference is negligibe) while LB is better for Liverpool Street and King's Cross is probably as broad as it is long.

But presumably tourists coming from Gatwick will be more interested in where the station is in relation to their hotel... as I doubt many will head straight to, for example, Buckingham Palace with luggage in tow...

True enough. I assume most tourists will pick a convenient hotel for the touristy stuff where again Victoria will likely be more convenient.

With that said the last time I was in London overnight, for a show in Hammersmith, my hotel was near King's Cross as the hotel there was much cheaper. That was only for one night though. To undermine my own point even further I probably would've used Thameslink if it wasn't the weekend

I do prefer Victoria but I suppose it doesn't make that much difference either way. And FCC only is cheaper...

 

[shinkansen1966]

Depends on how you look it - you don't pay more to use the Flying Scotsman than the standard.

Price differential is justified sometimes it is not. I think it's justified with

• Chiltern v Virgin trains to Birmingham
• London Midland v Virgin to Crewe

but not Southern Train's Gatwick Express service. The rolling stock, frequency and journey times offered by Southern Trains for their two types of service between Victoria/Gatwick and onto Brighton are virtually indistinguishable.

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps we should ask what gatwick Express is for? Originally, I seem to recall it mainly being an attempt to segregate passnegers from Central London to the airport and vice versa on to dedicated trains with extra luggage space.

Shortly before privatisation, BR was instructed to introduce selective pricing between London BR and Gatwick. Before this a London to Gatwick ticket could be used on any train (I am willing to be corrected here, my memory may well be faulty!)

Nowadays we seem to have trains branded Gatwick Express that are neither express, nor dedicated to CVictoria and Gatwick only. So why are they branded in this way? I suspect it's mainly for revenue. Therefore I don't see any need or benefit to passnegers in having these services at all!

 

[gordonthemoron]

you are indeed correct Grennback

 

[Failed Unit]

Most people getting off a plane at Gatwick and heading into London aren't going straight to the city, and Victoria is better for the City than London Bridge is for the West End thanks to the Circle/District lines and the walk either across the bridge or from Bank to Monument. Victoria is also better for the museums at South Kesington.

If you want the western side of the Jubilee line I'm pretty sure it's quicker to go to Victoria and change at Green Park than go direct from London Bridge (there isn't much difference either way mind you) and the Bank branch of the Northern line isn't much use for most people other than city workers who'll only be travelling in any great numbers off-peak.

For people going beyond London, Victoria better for Euston, Paddington and Marylebone (although with Euston the difference is negligibe) while LB is better for Liverpool Street and King's Cross is probably as broad as it is long.

Sorry you are not selling the use of Victoria for me,

Thameslink has many other options as I said earlier not just London Bridge (yes I know that London Bridge is the quote for the speed) - Once the underground station is re-opened change at Blackfrairs for the Circle / District east bound. Why would anyone heading to Kings Cross use Victoria when you can use St Pancras?

 

[cle]

And the Jubilee Line Extension provides cross platform interchange at Baker St for Paddington and Marylebone - it's quite an easy journey.

Whereas the changes at Green Park are among the longest in London and awful if you have luggage!

 

[Failed Unit]

And the Jubilee Line Extension provides cross platform interchange at Baker St for Paddington and Marylebone - it's quite an easy journey.

Whereas the changes at Green Park are among the longest in London and awful if you have luggage!

Is London Bridge also step free or is that just the Jubilee line? I know Victoria is awful at the moment to get the tube because of the rebuilding work! Although granted it is better than Blackfrairs!

 

[tbtc]

At the moment Thameslink is four/hour to London. Does anyone know the planned Gatwick frequency once the "Thameslink 2000" expansion takes place?