Ongoing Waterloo Debacle

[embers25]

At what point do Network Rail admit that they have completely screwed up Waterloo after the works in August as there have now been points/signal failures every day since it reopened, though todays 1-13 is one of the worst ones. Why are SWR not kicking up more of a fuss as the service is now beyond a joke. This surely has to be one of the biggest cock ups ever and you'd think the press would be all over it.

 

[Feathers44]

At what point do Network Rail admit that they have completely screwed up Waterloo after the works in August as there have now been points/signal failures every day since it reopened, though todays 1-13 is one of the worst ones. Why are SWR not kicking up more of a fuss as the service is now beyond a joke. This surely has to be one of the biggest cock ups ever and you'd think the press would be all over it.

How on earth do you know what sort of fuss SWR is or isn't kicking up? It's hardly likely to be expressed as a twitter slap down between the two organisational!

 

[embers25]

How on earth do you know what sort of fuss SWR is or isn't kicking up? It's hardly likely to be expressed as a twitter slap down between the two organisational!

Bit of an over-reaction. It is not unheard of for TOCs to call NR out and surely NR need to start coming up with a plan B given Plan A has gone so horribly wrong.

 

[Elecman]

What makes you say it's gone horribly wrong and is a debacle? Waterloo is a very intensively worked bit of complex infrastructure. The odd loss of detection would be expected especially after major works have been carried out as the infrastructure settles into the ballast

 

[Foggycorner]

I think completly screwed up waterloo is a bit over the top when the amount of new equipment that was installed and work that was done needs time to bed in there are bound to be failures till the equipment is fine tuned and adjusted which takes time and above all safe access for the staff doing the work

 

[embers25]

What makes you say it's gone horribly wrong and is a debacle? Waterloo is a very intensively worked bit of complex infrastructure. The odd loss of detection would be expected especially after major works have been carried out as the infrastructure settles into the ballast

It's hardly the odd loss. It's issues 2 or 3 times EVERY day for almost 2 weeks, closing at least 4 platforms usually more for several hours at a time and causing significant disruption. If this as Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham it would have made national news. Even by NR standards this is a joke

 

[swt_passenger]

I think completly screwed up waterloo is a bit over the top when the amount of new equipment that was installed and work that was done needs time to bed in there are bound to be failures till the equipment is fine tuned and adjusted which takes time and above all safe access for the staff doing the work

Suggested elsewhere that todays defect was self inflicted during follow up tamping. NRES also suggest it was fixed in about 90 minutes. Mountains out of molehills?

 

[carriageline]

What makes you say it's gone horribly wrong and is a debacle? Waterloo is a very intensively worked bit of complex infrastructure. The odd loss of detection would be expected especially after major works have been carried out as the infrastructure settles into the ballast

Not necessarily. The London Bridge works is an example of an infrastructure project going well. No issues after the August bank holiday works


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[SPADTrap]

I think the question is more 'When do people need to realise that giving a short period of time for major works is shooting ourselves in the foot?'

 

[lincolnshire]

Is it a case that SWTrains is getting paid by Network Rail for running the service since they started work in August and also receiving delay payments for the delays and faults now happening. If they are its all money coming into there coffers and not much maybe going out on delay repay. So it might be worthwhile for them and its Network Rail is getting the flack about the service due to infrastructure problems.

I think you will find that when they upgraded the West Coast Virgin got paid to run the train service while upgrade work was going on and I would imagine its the same in this case.

 

[Olaf]

At what point do Network Rail admit that they have completely screwed up Waterloo after the works in August as there have now been points/signal failures every day since it reopened, though todays 1-13 is one of the worst ones. Why are SWR not kicking up more of a fuss as the service is now beyond a joke. This surely has to be one of the biggest cock ups ever and you'd think the press would be all over it.

There has been a growing intensity of signalling failures on the SWML into Waterloo for nearly a decade now. It has been escalated, repeatedly, with the ORR taking action recently to have NR address concerns. However, the ORR is now also taking flack for it's failures so the heat is going up the food chain.

 

[Elecman]

The ORR should be stripped of all responsibility for the railways. You cannot have it acting as Paymaster and Judge.

It sets the absurd rules for efficiency gains (read funding cuts) then fines NR when failures occur due to backlog in maintenance. Overrules Network Rail when told a specific route cannot take an extra hourly service demanded by a TOC then fines NR when performance collapses on the route due to running the extra services

 

[Olaf]

The ORR should be stripped of all responsibility for the railways. You cannot have it acting as Paymaster and Judge.

It sets the absurd rules for efficiency gains (read funding cuts) then fines NR when failures occur due to backlog in maintenance. Overrules Network Rail when told a specific route cannot take an extra hourly service demanded by a TOC then fines NR when performance collapses on the route due to running the extra services

The problem with the ORR is it's weakness and failure to act. Some of the points you make may be justified, but it bases it's decisions on the information it is proved with, and on cross-industry metrics. NR's costs and inefficiencies where obviously too high at the outset, and the pressure from the ORR to further cut inefficiencies is about to get more intense.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think completly screwed up waterloo is a bit over the top when the amount of new equipment that was installed and work that was done needs time to bed in there are bound to be failures till the equipment is fine tuned and adjusted which takes time and above all safe access for the staff doing the work

Then surely it is a case of managing expectations. Did Network Rail/SWT/SWR tell passengers that they might experience weeks of problems after the blockade as the infrastructure beds in? I think we all know the answer to that.

 

[nlogax]

'Completely screwed up', 'debarcle' (sic), 'biggest cock ups ever'. Fair bit of hyperbole, right there.

Three weeks was probably too short a window of time for this sort of project with threadbare contingency. What we're seeing now is the fallout from that, but seriously - it could have been far worse.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's hardly the odd loss. It's issues 2 or 3 times EVERY day for almost 2 weeks, closing at least 4 platforms usually more for several hours at a time and causing significant disruption. If this was Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham it would have made national news. Even by NR standards this is a joke

Giggle...

Okay, maybe Manchester if the BBC are feeling lazy... but come on now!

 

[High Dyke]

Omg bit of an over-reaction. It is not unheard of for TOCs to call NR out and surely NR need to start coming up with a plan B given Plan A has gone so horribly wrong.

They have a Plan B? :roll:

 

[Hellzapoppin]

The question of access is one which many people aren't aware of. Long possessions/blockades cost a lot of money in handouts to the TOCs and FOCs.
In addition to that week nights or weekend nights can be as low as 5 hours a shift.
I know of 1 area where they get 5 hours every 40 odd days. So as much work needs to be done in as short a time as possible, it only takes 1 hiccup and the plan, which is already tight, starts to slip, add equipment failures into the mix and overruns and delays occur. I expect the guys and gals on the ground are working flat out to get things sorted as quickly as possible so well done to them.

 

[Elecman]

The question of access is one which many people aren't aware of. Long possessions/blockades cost a lot of money in handouts to the TOCs and FOCs.
In addition to that week nights or weekend nights can be as low as 5 hours a shift.
I know of 1 area where they get 5 hours every 40 odd days. So as much work needs to be done in as short a time as possible, it only takes 1 hiccup and the plan, which is already tight, starts to slip, add equipment failures into the mix and overruns and delays occur. I expect the guys and gals on the ground are working flat out to get things sorted as quickly as possible so well done to them.

And those 5 hours get eaten into by waiting for isolations to be granted and returned , so working time will be less

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Before the blockade, when was the last time that there was a major replacement/renewal of the signalling equipment in the Waterloo area (not just replacement of signal heads with LED ones)?

 

[The Ham]

Over the last few weeks I've been more disrupted by failures south of Guildford than those at or near Waterloo, as they tend to be longer lived.

 

[hwl]

Before the blockade, when was the last time that there was a major replacement/renewal of the signalling equipment in the Waterloo area (not just replacement of signal heads with LED ones)?

Mid 1980s from 84 onwards

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Mid 1980s from 84 onwards

Given how many more services run in and out of Waterloo since the mid 80s, could the equipment be starting to reach life expired sooner then was envisaged when it was installed?

 

[MarkyT]

Given how many more services run in and out of Waterloo since the mid 80s, could the equipment be starting to reach life expired sooner then was envisaged when it was installed?

Signalling installations are assumed to have a life expectancy of 40 years. They are periodically assessed for condition and some get renewed early, some last longer. Individual components get renewed as well. Point machines in particular are renewed several times within this 40 years on a typical cycle of around 10 years in busy areas. They are replaced by new or factory refurbished units.

 

[bb21]

I have full sympathy for the OP. Services in/out of Waterloo is currently a complete joke, and I speak with more authority than most of you on this subject.

I don't think they can all be blamed on the August works, but NR seriously need to manage its contractors for the number of "own goal" incidents currently happening.

I also fully agree with the comment about managing expectations. Communication in this area seems severely lacking.

 

[embers25]

Over the last few weeks I've been more disrupted by failures south of Guildford than those at or near Waterloo, as they tend to be longer lived.

I was commuting from Petersfield to Woking but the commute from Exeter to Woking has proved FAR more reliable over the past year so I would agree! Also it is really annoying that when the do divert the Pompey fasts via Fareham, due to the ever increasing number of issues at Liss, they always seem to manage to hold the diverted xx25 from Woking just long enough so it gets stuck behind the xx35 slow via Hedge End and don't let it past it at either Farnborough, Basingstoke, Shawford or Eastleigh for some reason.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Signalling installations are assumed to have a life expectancy of 40 years. They are periodically assessed for condition and some get renewed early, some last longer. Individual components get renewed as well. Point machines in particular are renewed several times within this 40 years on a typical cycle of around 10 years in busy areas. They are replaced by new or factory refurbished units.

Not all interlockings have a life this long - it ranges from 130 years (and counting) down to 22 years for a CBI/IECC.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think you will find that when they upgraded the West Coast Virgin got paid to run the train service while upgrade work was going on and I would imagine its the same in this case.

The situation here isn't comparable to the WCRM and Virgin, at all. That was many years of all round hassle for the TOC, resulting in the adoption of a management contract.

This was just a two week phase during SWT's last period in charge - and a one week problem for the replacement franchise, SWR. The previous so many years of SWT's franchise, and hopefully the rest of SWR's franchise, were not and will not be comparable with this short period.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Not necessarily. The London Bridge works is an example of an infrastructure project going well. No issues after the August bank holiday works


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But apparently lots of issues previously particularly during works to the Southern side. Indeed London Bridge is stated to be one of the big reasons for all the issues on Southern. Must admit I have my doubts as time stats seem to indicate less issues at London Bridge. But there were certain;y days when it was a total disaster.

 

[carriageline]

But apparently lots of issues previously particularly during works to the Southern side. Indeed London Bridge is stated to be one of the big reasons for all the issues on Southern. Must admit I have my doubts as time stats seem to indicate less issues at London Bridge. But there were certain;y days when it was a total disaster.

The early days of the resignalled London Bridge were awful, with daily failures. But most of them were mistakes made during the blockages.

Generally, new equipment doesn't have to 'bed in' at all.

If points and track are tamped, set up etc correctly, that's all that's really required. It's not 'expected' for new equipment to fail. Of course, sometimes faulty equipment can be installed, aswell as things not being used for a while because of blockades etc


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