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'ON TIME' but no platform number at Kings Cross

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Railcar

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I Noticed at Kings Cross last week,that the main display on the concourse will show a train to be 'ON TIME' but as that disappears, it is not replaced by the platform number. This is for a train that is departing in , say, 5 minutes. The platform number will be revealed when there is barely enough time to get through the crowds to the platform. Infuriating!
 
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74A

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They say on time even though it may depart up to 5 minutes late.

Previously they would show delayed people would wander off come back a couple minutes after departure time to find out it had already left !
 

jon0844

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Platforms must be set to show manually and are surpressed by default - so as not to cause last minute platform changes. The idea being to keep everyone on the concourse.

Obviously apps can show where the train is, but with a risk that a unit swap might mess things up. But that's a risk most people are willing to take, given how rare that is and that should generally show anyway.
 

GordonT

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Why are so many stations in mainland Europe able (with an acceptable degree of confidence) to advertise on fixed posters within the station which platform each individual departure will leave from and UK is stuck with the wishy-washiness depicted at Kings Cross in the original post?
 

Javelin_55

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Why are so many stations in mainland Europe able (with an acceptable degree of confidence) to advertise on fixed posters within the station which platform each individual departure will leave from and UK is stuck with the wishy-washiness depicted at Kings Cross in the original post?
The plan is of course written for everything to have its proper place but King's Cross a mass of different TOCs, stock types, train lengths, and local/intercity services. Add to this that there is top working and prohibitions on some platforms for some trains - it doesn't take much for everything to get displaced, hence last minute platform alterations (decisions often made entirely by the signaller on approach to the station, so staff only become aware as the customers do)

I can't speak for the rest of Europe but over here this is the price you pay for such a varied transport hub.
 

GordonT

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The plan is of course written for everything to have its proper place but King's Cross a mass of different TOCs, stock types, train lengths, and local/intercity services. Add to this that there is top working and prohibitions on some platforms for some trains - it doesn't take much for everything to get displaced, hence last minute platform alterations (decisions often made entirely by the signaller on approach to the station, so staff only become aware as the customers do)

I can't speak for the rest of Europe but over here this is the price you pay for such a varied transport hub.
I think in many cases stations in other countries have more platform capacity at their disposal and more staff resources on the ground and behind the scenes. In most cases they have wisely avoided fragmentation and avoided allowing the entire basis of operation to become overly accountant-driven.
 

YorkshireBear

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I think it's less to do with the varied nature, Köln for example has the posters and is huge with a variety of services.

I think it's mainly down to station capacities, I have not been to a European major city station that has platform occupancy as high as kings cross. Always plenty of spare platforms so things tend to be able to go as planned.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I think in many cases stations in other countries have more platform capacity at their disposal and more staff resources on the ground and behind the scenes. In most cases they have wisely avoided fragmentation and avoided allowing the entire basis of operation to become overly accountant-driven.
Much more eloquent than what I said, this is what I am getting at, completely agree.
 

Horizon22

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Platforms must be set to show manually and are surpressed by default - so as not to cause last minute platform changes. The idea being to keep everyone on the concourse.

Obviously apps can show where the train is, but with a risk that a unit swap might mess things up. But that's a risk most people are willing to take, given how rare that is and that should generally show anyway.

There's not a "must" but it's certainly best practice at big terminals as the chance of platform changes is much higher. The operator can set there CIS control to "auto" so that as soon as the berth is created of the outbound in the platform it posts on the CIS. However at most terminals this wouldn't be considered good practice, as there is the need for the inbound service to be cleaned, prepped, the passengers to clear the platform and crew to be in position and the potential for overcrowding a platform and causing huge crossfall of passengers.

Some stations still can't show an expected time, it only flips between "On time" and "delayed", even if that delay is just a few minutes. Incredibly frustrating this isn't fixed due to some cost implications and you can appreciate why an operator might not change it to "Delayed" which can cause more panic than a few minutes delay. In the back end system though, the operator needs to ensure it does have a delay otherwise the service will "drop off the screens".

Apps are a problem - often they say "expected" or "predicted" when listing platform numbers but people take them as gospel which can incredibly frustrating for staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Why are so many stations in mainland Europe able (with an acceptable degree of confidence) to advertise on fixed posters within the station which platform each individual departure will leave from and UK is stuck with the wishy-washiness depicted at Kings Cross in the original post?

Are they? What is an "acceptable degree of confidence"? Is there capacity not being completely squeezed out at key times? Every train will have a booked platform at any major terminal for the day as part of the daily station workings. Even a few minutes delay added in can however cause a platform change (which is better than being sat outside the station I think you'd agree) which causes knock-ons for an hour or more.
 
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Javelin_55

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I think in many cases stations in other countries have more platform capacity at their disposal and more staff resources on the ground and behind the scenes. In most cases they have wisely avoided fragmentation and avoided allowing the entire basis of operation to become overly accountant-driven.

I think it's mainly down to station capacities, I have not been to a European major city station that has platform occupancy as high as kings cross. Always plenty of spare platforms so things tend to be able to go as planned.

Excellent points, I'm sure a lot of it is down to this.
With that in mind it seems like madness for King's Cross to have got rid of two platforms!
 

ainsworth74

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Was the plan for all GTR 700s to use the core tunnels? Rather than terminate at Kings Cross?
I think so from memory? The only thing that were supposed to be using Kings Cross were a few peak time extras (to Peterborough I think mostly) and the hourly Kings Lynn service (though some of them were main trainshed anyway).
 

ricoblade

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Platforms must be set to show manually and are surpressed by default - so as not to cause last minute platform changes. The idea being to keep everyone on the concourse.

Obviously apps can show where the train is, but with a risk that a unit swap might mess things up. But that's a risk most people are willing to take, given how rare that is and that should generally show anyway.

On Saturday, the NR app was showing our 16:33 departure from King's Cross as Platform 4 hours before departure. This subsequently disappeared and only came live again (as P4) with about 15 mins to departure.
 

Nova1

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Does this really happen?
...sometimes, but not often

Marylebone have a really small gateline so they never announce platform numbers until really late, or they have them up early. For the high numbered platforms that require a walk all the way up platform 4, they show the train as "boarding area A", to get people through the ticket barriers and waiting near-ish the platforms but not on them.
 

htafc

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...sometimes, but not often

Marylebone have a really small gateline so they never announce platform numbers until really late, or they have them up early. For the high numbered platforms that require a walk all the way up platform 4, they show the train as "boarding area A", to get people through the ticket barriers and waiting near-ish the platforms but not on them.
I see. Thanks!
 

Taunton

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I believe the problem at Marylebone arose (hopefully past tense) after the evening peak, when they were down to minimum staffing, and the member of staff responsible for putting the platform number up was involved in other aspects of dispatch, and got distracted elsewhere. I don't know if the train involved was from those, new, far end ones on the left ... because it was never indicated!

A couple of others on here had the same experience.
 

Horizon22

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On Saturday, the NR app was showing our 16:33 departure from King's Cross as Platform 4 hours before departure. This subsequently disappeared and only came live again (as P4) with about 15 mins to departure.

Because apps go from the base timetable. Sure, most of the time they’ll be correct but it cannot be guaranteed with short notice platform changes or even minor delays.
 

XAM2175

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Why are so many stations in mainland Europe able (with an acceptable degree of confidence) to advertise on fixed posters within the station which platform each individual departure will leave from and UK is stuck with the wishy-washiness depicted at Kings Cross in the original post?
Are they? What is an "acceptable degree of confidence"? Is there capacity not being completely squeezed out at key times? Every train will have a booked platform at any major terminal for the day as part of the daily station workings. Even a few minutes delay added in can however cause a platform change (which is better than being sat outside the station I think you'd agree) which causes knock-ons for an hour or more.
It's a cultural thing as much as it is anything else, at least in Germany/Switzerland/Austria. Anybody who's done more than a token amount of long-distance travel in these countries - and especially Germany, with such a large and complicated network - will have experienced platform changes and altered formations just as happens here.

Nevertheless the operators publish platform numbers and and train formations openly and prominently. In effect they are taking one side of the argument; let passengers go to the platform ahead of time, and let them wait on the platform according to where their car is meant to be, and if it turns out that a change is necessary then that's just the way it is. Culture here as we know, conversely, is to make passengers wait until the platform is certain (and usually not to give formation information at all).

Personally I prefer the former option because it means that you're only left with a last-minute scrum when there's a change, whereas the latter option means there's a scrum practically every time.
 

Andyh82

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It's a cultural thing as much as it is anything else, at least in Germany/Switzerland/Austria. Anybody who's done more than a token amount of long-distance travel in these countries - and especially Germany, with such a large and complicated network - will have experienced platform changes and altered formations just as happens here.

Nevertheless the operators publish platform numbers and and train formations openly and prominently. In effect they are taking one side of the argument; let passengers go to the platform ahead of time, and let them wait on the platform according to where their car is meant to be, and if it turns out that a change is necessary then that's just the way it is. Culture here as we know, conversely, is to make passengers wait until the platform is certain (and usually not to give formation information at all).

Personally I prefer the former option because it means that you're only left with a last-minute scrum when there's a change, whereas the latter option means there's a scrum practically every time.
What is also a factor that has not been mentioned is that if you display platform numbers, people will head to them and start to board, getting in the way of cleaning and before seat reservations have been set up
 

XAM2175

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What is also a factor that has not been mentioned is that if you display platform numbers, people will head to them and start to board, getting in the way of cleaning and before seat reservations have been set up
I can appreciate this, but it's not necessarily impossible to manage, such as by only opening certain doors on the train and having staff ask passengers to wait. Many operators also make announcements to the effect that boarding has not yet begun, and show "DO NOT BOARD" on the information displays (though this requires that they be installed at multiple points along the platform, something also antithetical in much of Britain).
 

VideozVideoz

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I saw this when at Stafford. Not sure I’ve seen it before but could be wrong. It said the same on the platform, sorry didn’t photograph that. Is it common?
 

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skyhigh

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I saw this when at Stafford. Not sure I’ve seen it before but could be wrong. It said the same on the platform, sorry didn’t photograph that. Is it common?
TBC? Yes, fairly common. Usually when the booked platform is already occupied for some reason so they're not sure where it's going to go, or the train for the service has failed so they're waiting to see where the replacement will be found from.
 

Horizon22

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TBC? Yes, fairly common. Usually when the booked platform is already occupied for some reason so they're not sure where it's going to go, or the train for the service has failed so they're waiting to see where the replacement will be found from.

Normally the platform would just be left blank in such an instance no?
 

Broucek

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Why are so many stations in mainland Europe able (with an acceptable degree of confidence) to advertise on fixed posters within the station which platform each individual departure will leave from and UK is stuck with the wishy-washiness depicted at Kings Cross in the original post?
In theory. I got caught out recently in Germany...
 

OxtedL

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In theory. I got caught out recently in Germany...
Yeah, I've found Cologne Hbf to be an absolute nightmare for late notice platform alterations as soon as there's any disruption (which is most days!) for example
 

Taunton

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Because apps go from the base timetable. Sure, most of the time they’ll be correct but it cannot be guaranteed with short notice platform changes or even minor delays.
Well the timetable itself cannot be "guaranteed", but that doesn't stop it from being made available.
 

jon0844

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Yeah, I've found Cologne Hbf to be an absolute nightmare for late notice platform alterations as soon as there's any disruption (which is most days!) for example

Not possible. No country besides the UK ever has train delays or disruption. ;)
 
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