Old Stock: Reuse / Repurpose / Reserve / Recycle?

[najaB]

This is a topic that comes up for discussion from time to time, so I thought it might be useful to have a thread to refer to rather than rehashing the arguments over again.

When new stock is introduced there are basically four options as to what to do with the old:

Reuse
This is the simplest option - cascade the stock to another route or another operator pretty much as-is. Examples of this include the 319s going to Northern or the 170s going from Scotrail to Southern.

Pros: Lowest cost, fastest option.
Cons: May not be suitable for the new route/operator and can result in non-standard fleets (e.g. the 170s that came from Hull Trains to Scotrail had buffet counters)

Repurpose
Similar to the reuse option, it means that the stock continues to be used however it is modified between lives. This can be relatively minor (e.g. reforming units or converting two-class to single class) or major (e.g. adding power doors to Mk3 carriages).

Pros: The stock is best suited to the new route/operator with a consistent fleet. Gives the ROSCO a chance to improve the stock - e.g. bringing non-compliant stock up to modern standards.
Cons: Most expensive option. Can result in significant downtime.

Reserve
Place the stock into storage awaiting future reuse or repurposing. Examples include the 442s and other stored stock around the network.

Pros: Provides a ready reserve of stock that can be put into use at short notice.
Cons: Storage doesn't come for free, and even in the best case there will be deterioration of the condition of the stock over time.

Recycle
Conversion of the stock into spare parts and scrap metal.

Pros: Well, at least the metal has value.
Cons: No chance to make further money from the stock

Different fleets have suffered different fates over time, and not everyone has agreed with the choices made. The classic example is the Class 373s which are facing recycling whereas the GW HSTs are being repurposed. Many posters have decried the loss of 'perfectly good units' in the former case, and others are bemoaning the fact that Scotland is getting '40-year old English cast offs'. The reality is that ROSCOs try options in order and only get to scrapping if there's no viable plan for reuse or repurpose and no prospects on the horizon that make storing the stock a good idea. They'll only recycle as a last resort - either because the stock isn't suited to be reused or it will cost too much to repurpose it.

In the case of the 373s they couldn't be reused as-is (due to gauge-clearance, electrical supply and signalling issues) and would have been too expensive to repurpose, compared to the Mk3s which needed a relatively low-cost rebuild to bring them up to standard so that they could continue to be used on routes that they're already used on.

 

[DarloRich]

my view: Only bin when completely life expired and of no further use and/or it is not cost effective to spend money altering the composition of the vehicle.

 

[broadgage]

Agree, I cant support the scrapping of ANY serviceable rolling stock at a time when so many services are short formed or cancelled for lack of stock, or in need of longer trains.
A modest sized reserve fleet of older trains should be kept for breakdowns and extras.

 

[xotGD]

Another option to add to the list: Export

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A modest sized reserve fleet of older trains should be kept for breakdowns and extras.

That would mean taking crews away from frontline services every few months in order to make sure they retain competency on the "reserve" stock.

Better to simply order a few more than the bare minimum of each fleet: say a TOC needs 47 of a particular unit to provide services, so the DfT may fund a fleet of 50 allowing for maintenance spares. If anything untoward happens to 3 units in close succession you've suddenly got a problem. If the fleet was 53 units there's a bit more contingency: also means that a unit with a minor fault can be swapped out and repaired rather than sent out in an unsatisfactory condition.

That's an over-simplification, of course!

 

[AM9]

my view: Only bin when completely life expired and of no further use and/or it is not cost effective to spend money altering the composition of the vehicle.

... or the cost of keeping it in storage as reserve stock, (i.e. that is a real cost, not free because it's just leaving them on a free bit of track).

 

[bastien]

Another option: park them up and use them as housing. Some kind of self-build scheme perhaps?

 

[Flyingsprinter]

I’ve often thought that there has to be market for a caravan type park but with old carriages instead of caravans. Kit them out to a good static caravan standard and it would be amazing. I’d go! I’d probably end up living there! Especially if it’s next to a heritage railway. That would be the dream.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I’ve often thought that there has to be market for a caravan type park but with old carriages instead of caravans. Kit them out to a good static caravan standard and it would be amazing. I’d go! I’d probably end up living there! Especially if it’s next to a heritage railway. That would be the dream.

There used to be camping coaches dotted around the country. Still some at Dawlish Warren I believe.

Not sure if Pacers or 315s would have the same appeal though!

 

[Flyingsprinter]

Probably would only work with mk2/3 carriages or any unit that doesn’t have 1/3 doors. Maybe a use for class 442’s anyone? And I mean caravan standard with Ensuite and kitchen. I need an ensuite!
Just imagine if north York moors or the worth valley railway had them nearby. A night in a converted train then walking on the Yorkshire moors. Perfection. I’m getting side tracked here. Sorry

 

[Non Multi]

I expect like many of the BR Mk2's to NZ anything unwanted will get exported, then modified or rebuilt.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Probably would only work with mk2/3 carriages or any unit that doesn’t have 1/3 doors. Maybe a use for class 442’s anyone? And I mean caravan standard with Ensuite and kitchen. I need an ensuite!
Just imagine if north York moors or the worth valley railway had them nearby. A night in a converted train then walking on the Yorkshire moors. Perfection. I’m getting side tracked here. Sorry

The obvious candidates would be the Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s once they're dispensed with. Several heritage railways have (or had) decommissioned sleeper cars on site to use as staff accommodation. You'd probably want to merge some of the compartments to provide space for double beds if it was going to work as a commercial venture though.

 

[IainG81]

Some stock that's being replaced is still quite new, you have five 360 units from Heathrow Connect that will soon be available anyone know what will happen to them once TFL have brought in the 345's fully?

 

[Non Multi]

Some stock that's being replaced is still quite new, you have five 360 units from Heathrow Connect that will soon be available anyone know what will happen to them once TFL have brought in the 345's fully?

Owned by Heathrow Airport. May be exported to join the SARL Airport Link Desiros in Thailand.

 

[JohnRegular]

I’ve often thought that there has to be market for a caravan type park but with old carriages instead of caravans. Kit them out to a good static caravan standard and it would be amazing. I’d go! I’d probably end up living there! Especially if it’s next to a heritage railway. That would be the dream.

Whilst cycling through Europe I stayed in a youth hostel in Bonn called Base Camp; they have a warehouse full of old motorhomes to stay in, but we stayed in an old train carriage. Old compartment stock of some sort. It was great! So there is a market!

 

[MarkyT]

There used to be camping coaches dotted around the country. Still some at Dawlish Warren I believe.

The Mk1 camping coaches at Dawlish Warren, known as Brunel Holiday Park, survived the recent sale of the site, and new owners made significant strides in refurbishing the carriages over winter 2016/17 and again this winter. Last summer was the first season under new management and an application was been made to extend the site's limited holiday let season to year-round operations.

Here's the FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/brunelholidaypark/

 

[47802]

my view: Only bin when completely life expired and of no further use and/or it is not cost effective to spend money altering the composition of the vehicle.

Complete nonsense, at the end of the day the train operators look for their best business case, in the case of electric trains, there are plenty of suppliers of electric trains which may offer better performance and lower operating costs, while diesels are more difficult from the point of view of future electrification, possible environmental issues and less suppliers. Consequently you are getting situations where electric trains may have no further use before they are so called life expired but diesels may be the opposite, but so what if there is no further use for a train then scrap it, and it doesn't really matter whether the train is 5 years old or 50 years old.

As for repurposing a train that's ok if you can find a market for it and it reasonably good train, my problem with the likes of the D train and the 769 is that they are fairly ancient trains that don't offer the passenger environment of newer trains your also throwing a lot of money at old trains.

HST's well your not really repurposing those merely upgrading them. and they do at least offer a passenger environment on a par with a modern train, although I personally would scrap them and look for new replacements, but the winners of the Scotrail franchise obviously made a good business case to use them.

 

[richieb1971]

Whilst line speeds around the network never exceed 125mph, I say keep the 125's as long as possible. Even if the 43's get chopped, those carriages are really nice and HST's are still way way up there in terms of a quality ride compared to most of the trains on our network. We are reaching a period right now where the right political decision needs to be made for the future of unexpired stock. No good saying in 5 years time "we could have used those HST's for this that and the other" after they were cut up in some scrappy.

 

[kermit]

I’ve often thought that there has to be market for a caravan type park but with old carriages instead of caravans. Kit them out to a good static caravan standard and it would be amazing. I’d go! I’d probably end up living there! Especially if it’s next to a heritage railway. That would be the dream.

Try Rogart Station on the Far North Line

http://www.sleeperzzz.com/

 

[bspahh]

Whilst cycling through Europe I stayed in a youth hostel in Bonn called Base Camp; they have a warehouse full of old motorhomes to stay in, but we stayed in an old train carriage. Old compartment stock of some sort. It was great! So there is a market!

At Arlanda airport there is a hotel in an old jumbo jet
https://www.jumbostay.com/room/double-bed-ensuite-cockpit/

 

[D365]

... my problem with the likes of the D train and the 769 is that they are fairly ancient trains that don't offer the passenger environment of newer trains your also throwing a lot of money at old trains.

If it’s not taxpayer money then that’s not a problem surely...

 

[47802]

If it’s not taxpayer money then that’s not a problem surely...

It is if I as a customer are offered a third rate product (D train), when perhaps with a better business plan or a determination to improve the product for the region even if the business case isn't that good ie Northern so that something better could be offered.

Now you can argue such as Vivarail is private company so they can offer the product they want in the market place and the Dft and the TOC's can take it or leave it, however I think its fair to say that Personally as a Northerner I found it offensive that Viavrail thought they could palm these trains off onto the North, if I ever met Shooter personally I would have a few choice words for him.

There also seems to be an attitude on here that just because a company builds a prototype train it should be automatically be bought for use somewhere on the network, or If a train is sat in the siding somewhere that should automatically be reused on the UK network.

The other problem when you start significantly messing about with old trains is that the amount of work, time and cost required seems to be significantly underestimated on a regular basis.

 

[najaB]

Personally as a Northerner I found it offensive that Viavrail thought they could palm these trains off onto the North, if I ever met Shooter personally I would have a few choice words for him.

While it is common knowledge on the forum that they were built for Northern, I've not seen anything which indicates that Vivarail specifically intended that to be the only market.

 

[47802]

While it is common knowledge on the forum that they were built for Northern, I've not seen anything which indicates that Vivarail specifically intended that to be the only market.

I'm sure Vivarail would flog them to anybody who wants them, however its was very clear what their target market was especially when they appeared on BBC Look North before the franchise was re-let.

I also think this craze of trying to turn old EMU's into Diesels/Bi-modes may be very short lived or the even more barking idea of trying to turn a 158/9 into a Diesel Electric Bi-mode

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst line speeds around the network never exceed 125mph, I say keep the 125's as long as possible. Even if the 43's get chopped, those carriages are really nice and HST's are still way way up there in terms of a quality ride compared to most of the trains on our network. We are reaching a period right now where the right political decision needs to be made for the future of unexpired stock. No good saying in 5 years time "we could have used those HST's for this that and the other" after they were cut up in some scrappy.

Even if they don't last too well, it will be very hard for their operators to step down in quality terms - so we could well see something like loco+Mk5+DTSO to replace them rather than regional DMUs.

 

[Non Multi]

It is if I as a customer are offered a third rate product (D train)..

When I regularly used the D-stock on the District line, I found it to be a very good metro train, refurbished to a very high standard. They were retired somewhat prematurely from LU, with 10-15 years of life left. Compared to a Northern 153/155 DMU, they're internally less drab and gloomy and from what I've seen online, quieter even when converted to a DEMU.

 

[47802]

When I regularly used the D-stock on the District line, I found it to be a very good metro train, refurbished to a very high standard. They were retired somewhat prematurely from LU, with 10-15 years of life left. Compared to a Northern 153/155 DMU, they're internally less drab and gloomy and from what I've seen online, quieter even when converted to a DEMU.

Well thats your opinion of them which your perfectly entitled to, but thats the fundamental point for me they are a metro train and an old one at that, not a regional DMU. Anyway there is a thread for the D230's and the merits of them or otherwise have been discussed at extreme length so probably best not turn into another D230 thread.

 

[Non Multi]

When I was reading the 'Island Line future' thread, it seems with hindsight that passing over the opportunity to take the MkII '83 Tube stock in the late 1990s, sort out the faults and put them back into service a few years later was a mistake. They now have to live with geriatric '38 stock for an indefinite period or possibly commit to a expensive conversion to light rail. Take your chances when they arise, IMO.

 

[D365]

Well thats your opinion of them which your perfectly entitled to, but thats the fundamental point for me they are a metro train and an old one at that, not a regional DMU.

The point being they can be considered an improvement over a number of Sprinter types, as they will be on the Marston Vale

 

[SHD]

Another option to add to the list: Export

Quite unlikely for UK-gauge multiple unit stock IMHO (yes there have been cases - locomotives for which the gauge is not an issue, and a batch of coaches to Canada).