Old Stock: Reuse / Repurpose / Reserve / Recycle?

[AndrewE]

I also think this craze of trying to turn old EMU's into Diesels/Bi-modes may be very short lived or the even more barking idea of trying to turn a 158/9 into a Diesel Electric Bi-mode

I couldn't agree more

Even if they don't last too well, it will be very hard for their operators to step down in quality terms - so we could well see something like loco+Mk5+DTSO to replace them rather than regional DMUs.

Well, given the general comments about the comfort and quality about Mk4s vs Mk3s I guess that must be a vote for retaining Mk 3s with loco haulage and Driving trailers of some sort! (would wink if I could find the smiley) If the TDM or whatever can be made to work, then an electric loco at one end and a diesel at the other would give us bi-modes, and where there isn't much wiring along a route, why not just cascade whole HSTs?

 

[Non Multi]

Quite unlikely for UK-gauge multiple unit stock IMHO (yes there have been cases - locomotives for which the gauge is not an issue, and a batch of coaches to Canada).

Surplus BR Mk2 coaches went to New Zealand in the late 1990's & early 2000's, many were extensively rebuilt. Even the 141s were exported to Iran.

 

[bastien]

Surplus BR Mk2 coaches went to New Zealand in the late 1990's & early 2000's, many were extensively rebuilt. Even the 141s were exported to Iran.

That's the funny thing - our coaches are just about the same size as metre gauge stock elsewhere (and maybe vice-versa with the Japanese A Train / Class 800s).

 

[MarkyT]

That's the funny thing - our coaches are just about the same size as metre gauge stock elsewhere (and maybe vice-versa with the Japanese A Train / Class 800s).

Indeed. Many colonial railways, particularly in British controlled Africa, were built to the 'cape gauge' of 3ft 6in, very close to metre gauge too. Japan also adopted this gauge, and their structure gauge is very close to ours, including the high platform intrusion, as illustrated in this rolling stock profile drawing :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Rolling-Stock-Gauge-in-Japan.svg
Blue is for early narrow gauge lines, grey is later narrow and green is standard gauge Shinkansen.

Lends weight to the theory the UK operates a narrow gauge railway on standard gauge tracks!

 

[ChilternTurbo]

There used to be camping coaches dotted around the country. Still some at Dawlish Warren I believe.

Not sure if Pacers or 315s would have the same appeal though!

Good use of a redundant ex Virgin Mk3

https://www.sykescottages.co.uk/cot...-Hawsker/Converted-Railway-Carriage-3877.html

 

[Grannyjoans]

319 Flex - talk about flogging a dead horse. I hope it's just a stop-gap until something else comes along, because, you can't really get much lower than that in terms of quality. (class 150 is about the only thing worse, seeing as 142 are to be scrapped)

 

[D365]

319 Flex - talk about flogging a dead horse. I hope it's just a stop-gap until something else comes along, because, you can't really get much lower in terms of quality.

Best not mention the 230 in the same breath then.

 

[Silverlink]

As much as I don’t want the 319flex to fail but I can see it being a complete disaster. Whenever they try and upgrade these old trains it never works...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As much as I don’t want the 319flex to fail but I can see it being a complete disaster. Whenever they try and upgrade these old trains it never works...

I do wonder if the 319flex might've been better with larger, more powerful engines placed above the solebar (with the loss of seats between cab and first passenger doors, a bit like the 210s) and perhaps provision of an extra powered bogie. Whilst this would lose some seats, it would avoid some of the predicted problems with a lack of power on diesel mode. There are probably several things I've overlooked though.

 

[MonsooN]

I'm sure the NYMR did have camping coaches. My Father in Law has been involved in the railway since it started and my wife remembers staying in a converted coach when she was a child (this would have been in the early to mid 1980s)

I like the idea of converting old stock into somewhere to live. I bet there are plenty of disused tracks that could be converted into "train streets" too!

 

[Grannyjoans]

If 319flex actually works I can see them using them for the next 10 years plus because "there is nothing any better available with the very limited money we have". Reminds me of the 142's and how they have lasted so long, how many times has that 142 deadline been extended.

 

[AndrewE]

I do wonder if the 319flex might've been better with larger, more powerful engines placed above the solebar (with the loss of seats between cab and first passenger doors, a bit like the 210s) and perhaps provision of an extra powered bogie. Whilst this would lose some seats, it would avoid some of the predicted problems with a lack of power on diesel mode. There are probably several things I've overlooked though.

I also wondered about suggesting this, after all with 4 coaches available an acceptable engine compartment could probably be built in, and with a side corridor too. I suspect that the fact that all current DMU Depots are built around under-floor engines might be a show-stopper as they would need different access for maintenance, craneage, etc etc.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I also wondered about suggesting this, after all with 4 coaches available an acceptable engine compartment could probably be built in, and with a side corridor too. I suspect that the fact that all current DMU Depots are built around under-floor engines might be a show-stopper as they would need different access for maintenance, craneage, etc etc.

That's a fair point, and possibly one of several cost issues that tipped the scales away from 210s towards Sprinters. Though presumably it would be less of an issue at depots which also do work on HST power cars?

 

[Intercity Exec]

The class 769 Flex design doesn't require larger engines as the whole concept is based around making the train operate as it currently is. The engine is only there to provide a fixed 750v dc supply in the same way as the 3rd rail does and the units will effectively think they are on 3rd rail. The engine will not cycle and will run at a predetermined number of revs to produce this. As a result the engine is being worked as a generator, which is how a Diesel engine works at its best as Diesel engines neither like idling or cycling. The unit is effectively therefore a class 319 with 750v generator equipment bolted on as an independent package, so there are few complications. Corrosion etc will be an issue however, as with any train which has been in service for almost 30 years.

 

[Grannyjoans]

I've heard today that the 319 flex project has hit some difficulties. Apparently the chassis on the end cars isn't strong enough to carry the weight of the engines, as they were never designed to carry that much weight.

 

[Domh245]

The chassis strength is supposedly less of a concern than initially feared by some. However, it seems the big issue at the moment is ensuring that the electrical load is evenly balanced across the 4 generators.

 

[Grannyjoans]

I do wonder if the 319flex might've been better with larger, more powerful engines placed above the solebar (with the loss of seats between cab and first passenger doors, a bit like the 210s) and perhaps provision of an extra powered bogie. Whilst this would lose some seats, it would avoid some of the predicted problems with a lack of power on diesel mode. There are probably several things I've overlooked though.

I don't think Power on Diesel was ever much of an issue with 319 Flex on the services they are going on.

Wigan NW to Stalybridge/Alderley Edge - They will only on be Diesel power between Wigan and Lostock Junction before entering the electrified line from Dec 2018. On the diesel section they are only keeping up with 142's, 150's & 156's with maximum linespeeds only between 50 and 60mph.

I think the main issue is with the Lostock to Manchester section, even on electric power. The acceleration from 0 to 30mph is slow even on electric power and the Stalybridge service is booked to stop at Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley!



Manchester Airport to Windermere is the only other service down for 319 flex. The diesel section of that journey is slow anyway.

 

[AndrewE]

The class 769 Flex design doesn't require larger engines as the whole concept is based around making the train operate as it currently is. The engine is only there to provide a fixed 750v dc supply in the same way as the 3rd rail does and the units will effectively think they are on 3rd rail. The engine will not cycle and will run at a predetermined number of revs to produce this. As a result the engine is being worked as a generator, which is how a Diesel engine works at its best as Diesel engines neither like idling or cycling. The unit is effectively therefore a class 319 with 750v generator equipment bolted on as an independent package, so there are few complications. Corrosion etc will be an issue however, as with any train which has been in service for almost 30 years.

I think the required kiloWatts are what matter more than the fact that the diesel engines will be driving a generator of some sort. The more of them (kW) you need, the bigger the engine has to be, which is why I wondered about one big engine in an engine room supplying the amps that would otherwise have come from the third rail or the output from the 25kV transformer. And I'm sure that the engine will be on a variable throttle depending on how much power is needed, so there's no way they will run at a constant rate, the electronics will convert the generator output to the voltage needed by the traction motor power supply inputs, and the current needed will be dealt with by the engine revs. "Idling and cycling" is what a diesel engine on the railway has to do.

 

[TwistedMentat]

I think the closest you'll be able to get to something like this is some sort of Mk6 type carriage that can be hauled or fitted with pantograph equipment. Then have every line use the same stuff.

That way you can keep it in low level production introducing new technologies while retaining interoperability. So wherever a carriage ends up it can be used.

Is this easy? Oh hell no. It would be a hugely complex thing to maintain and would essentially require the government to actually own all the rolling stock with it being leased to TOCs for each franchise. It would also require a proper long term commitment to initially produce enough to make sense then keep it all at a low level to replace life expired cars. Perhaps through some major rebuild process that zeros out the hours on the carriage.

Doable, sure. But the current system probably makes the most sense for the current way of doing things.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Does anyone think the 319 flex project is going to fail ?

 

[InTheEastMids]

Does anyone think the 319 flex project is going to fail ?

Might be worth defining what you mean by the word "fail" - no trains ever making into traffic? That's definitely a failure, but feels unlikely.

However, if you use Reference Class Forecasting and look at projects with similar characteristics (i.e. relatively expensive upgrades to older assets), and look at the 321 Renatus, HST power doors, 230s etc... or at non-rail projects like (heaven forbid) Nimrod MRA4, I'm seeing a clear pattern of late-ness, over-budget and under-performance. It's worth reading Thinking, Fast and Slow just for that section.

At this point, my inner Daniel Kahneman (writer of the above book) is gleefully pointing out that my list is skewed by Availability Bias, so maybe it's worth people with better knowledge of rolling stock upgrade/repurposing projects to weigh in with other examples?