Off Peak validity on Night Riviera Sleeper?

[adrock1976]

I would imagine it would be whatever applied at the time of purchase. Perhaps somebody could clarify?

Furthermore, does the present day NRCoT mention anywhere that it supersedes any previous conditions, namely the former NRCoC?

 

[spark001uk]

Read the quote at the bottom of my post, quoted from the front of NRCoT. It's on the previous page, post #27.

 

[Richard_B]

I would imagine it would be whatever applied at the time of purchase. Perhaps somebody could clarify?

Furthermore, does the present day NRCoT mention anywhere that it supersedes any previous conditions, namely the former NRCoC?

Read the quote at the bottom of my post, quoted from the front of NRCoT. It's on the previous page, post #27.

I think it maybe Yorkie's most common post since the new conditions were announced but if the old were in force at time of purchase, and the new at time of travel, the most favourable to the customer is applicable. This is rapidly becoming redundant however.

 

[spark001uk]

Another thing about the new condition 14.2, it states the train does not have to stop at the changeover station, but what it doesn't say is whether the train has to pass through that station. I know it doesn't say yes, but it doesn't say no either! So in the case of the Riviera, it may get diverted even right at the last minute, something that has happened before when I've been on board, being booked Taunton, and getting stopped at Castle Cary and routed down through Yeovil. But then I suppose because it's non-stop Reading-Exeter on a Sunday they've no need to advertise the route, so on that night at least, one can't reasonably be expected to find out which way it's going?

 

[Sleepy]

or you could book a berth - doubt the sleeping car attendants have very detailed ticket training ?

 

[spark001uk]

or you could book a berth - doubt the sleeping car attendants have very detailed ticket training ?

Na I think I'll make do in a seat. I have done a berth before but it wasn't quite plain sailing. The bar was closed as they were having problems, then in the morning we wanted to eat breakfast in lounge car - which the leaflet said we could - whilst watching the countryside pass by. However on asking the attendant he said no I've got to eat in the berth now, apparently they've changed it for health and safety reasons! Then got to Penzance and about 5 seconds after the train came to a halt he was hammering on everyone's doors telling them to leave immediately!

 

[Sleepy]

I can only assume lounge car was locked out of use due to a fault that night as it is still advertised as an option for breakfast. The berths are shown as vacate on arrival at Penzance unlike on arrival at Paddington where you can remain on board until 0700 due to the much earlier arrival time.

 

[221129]

Another thing about the new condition 14.2, it states the train does not have to stop at the changeover station, but what it doesn't say is whether the train has to pass through that station. I know it doesn't say yes, but it doesn't say no either! So in the case of the Riviera, it may get diverted even right at the last minute, something that has happened before when I've been on board, being booked Taunton, and getting stopped at Castle Cary and routed down through Yeovil. But then I suppose because it's non-stop Reading-Exeter on a Sunday they've no need to advertise the route, so on that night at least, one can't reasonably be expected to find out which way it's going?

You can't be expected to know which way it is booked to go on any given night.

A further question then, if I was to buy a Devon Day Ranger at £2.50 bought at say 0100 for the 0106 departure for London from Exeter could I use that splitting at Tiverton Parkway with a Tiverton - Taunton return to go to Taunton and then use the down beds on that ticket?

0106 depart EXD
0121 PASS TVP changing from Devon Day Ranger to A TVP-TAU return
0141 Arrive TAU
0235 Depart TAU
0251 PASS TVP Changing back onto my Devon Day Ranger
0513 Arrive at Plymouth

Would that then be valid?

 

[spark001uk]

I would guess so, as both tickets start/end at tiv, and you can use any ticket up to 0429 the next day?

Anyway after all that homework, the guard didn't even come down doing tickets on my trip!

 

[221129]

I would guess so, as both tickets start/end at tiv, and you can use any ticket up to 0429 the next day?

Anyway after all that homework, the guard didn't even come down doing tickets on my trip!

They do try and avoid doing that to be honest do avoid disturbing people.

 

[richw]

You can't be expected to know which way it is booked to go on any given night.

A further question then, if I was to buy a Devon Day Ranger at £2.50 bought at say 0100 for the 0106 departure for London from Exeter could I use that splitting at Tiverton Parkway with a Tiverton - Taunton return to go to Taunton and then use the down beds on that ticket?

0106 depart EXD
0121 PASS TVP changing from Devon Day Ranger to A TVP-TAU return
0141 Arrive TAU
0235 Depart TAU
0251 PASS TVP Changing back onto my Devon Day Ranger
0513 Arrive at Plymouth

Would that then be valid?

Does travel have to complete by 0429 or started by 0429? If the latter then yes that's valid

 

[221129]

Does travel have to complete by 0429 or started by 0429? If the latter then yes that's valid

Well I always thought it was the former however its been pointed out that it is not written anywhere as such.

 

[richw]

Well I always thought it was the former however its been pointed out that it is not written anywhere as such.

National Rail says the following

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day

I would say on that itinerary it can not be completed in time.

I assume an off peak ticket from Paddington to Penzance remains valid after 0429, same thing really?

 

[221129]

National Rail says the following



I would say on that itinerary it can not be completed in time.

I assume an off peak ticket from Paddington to Penzance remains valid after 0429, same thing really?

There is no doubt that a London - Penzance Off Peak ticket is valid all the way to Penzance.

But we are discussing rangers and rovers where there looks like a grey area.

 

[spark001uk]

I assume an off peak ticket from Paddington to Penzance remains valid after 0429, same thing really?

The question I think we're all after solving, is specifically with the rover off-peak validity. Once 0429 passes, are you liable to be booted off at the next stop, or are you allowed to continue to your intended destination.

Edit: ^ What he said

 

[Haywain]

I assume an off peak ticket from Paddington to Penzance remains valid after 0429, same thing really?

I am far from convinced about that. In the general terms and conditions of Off-Peak Returns, for return portions the main reference to 04:29 comes in the following form:

All travel must be completed by 04:29

It is only for an outward journey or a single ticket that travel is permitted after that time even when the journey has been started before that time.

My take is that the same will apply to Rovers and Rangers. Where the restrictions states (for example) not valid before 09:00, I think it is reasonable to interpret that this also means not valid after 04:29, given that 04:29 is recognised as being the end of the railway day.

 

[spark001uk]

I am far from convinced about that. In the general terms and conditions of Off-Peak Returns, for return portions the main reference to 04:29 comes in the following form: It is only for an outward journey or a single ticket that travel is permitted after that time even when the journey has been started before that time.

My take is that the same will apply to Rovers and Rangers. Where the restrictions states (for example) not valid before 09:00, I think it is reasonable to interpret that this also means not valid after 04:29, given that 04:29 is recognised as being the end of the railway day.

Yes but, if you look up Exeter to Penzance on the 0411 from Exeter for example, the booking engines offer an off-peak ticket, which is allowable as the journey begins before 0429. We are trying to ascertain whether the same applies to a rover journey starting before 0429, and whether it becomes invalid as soon as 0429 passes and you have to stop travelling, or whether it remains valid if your intended journey on it was to Penzance for example.

 

[Sleepy]

I am far from convinced about that. In the general terms and conditions of Off-Peak Returns, for return portions the main reference to 04:29 comes in the following form: It is only for an outward journey or a single ticket that travel is permitted after that time even when the journey has been started before that time.

My take is that the same will apply to Rovers and Rangers. Where the restrictions states (for example) not valid before 09:00, I think it is reasonable to interpret that this also means not valid after 04:29, given that 04:29 is recognised as being the end of the railway day.

GwR booking engine will happily let you book super off peak returns to use on the sleeper.

 

[Haywain]

Yes but, if you look up Exeter to Penzance on the 0411 from Exeter for example, the booking engines offer an off-peak ticket, which is allowable as the journey begins before 0429. We are trying to ascertain whether the same applies to a rover journey starting before 0429, and whether it becomes invalid as soon as 0429 passes and you have to stop travelling, or whether it remains valid if your intended journey on it was to Penzance for example.

GwR booking engine will happily let you book super off peak returns to use on the sleeper.

I think it is important to separate time restrictions from usage restrictions in this discussion.

 

[spark001uk]

I think it is important to separate time restrictions from usage restrictions in this discussion.

OK... The difference being?

 

[richw]

I am far from convinced about that. In the general terms and conditions of Off-Peak Returns, for return portions the main reference to 04:29 comes in the following form: It is only for an outward journey or a single ticket that travel is permitted after that time even when the journey has been started before that time.

My take is that the same will apply to Rovers and Rangers. Where the restrictions states (for example) not valid before 09:00, I think it is reasonable to interpret that this also means not valid after 04:29, given that 04:29 is recognised as being the end of the railway day.

Would you care to share the whole paragraph you have quoted. I'll do it for you.

if the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to complete the journey the following morning.

Without doubt on the down sleeper it can't be completed in this time, therefore the ticket can be used the following morning (after 0429)

 

[Haywain]

Would you care to share the whole paragraph you have quoted. I'll do it for you.

Don't bother if you can't do it properly. The paragraphs I quoted from uses 04:29 in a very different context:

Return tickets are valid for travel until 0429 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). All travel must be completed by this time.

And:

If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. < snip > All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day.

These are quite different from the paragraphs to which you refer.

 

[221129]

Don't bother if you can't do it properly. The paragraphs I quoted from uses 04:29 in a very different context:
And:
These are quite different from the paragraphs to which you refer.

But we aren't discussing return tickets?

 

[Haywain]

No. We are discussing Rovers and Rangers. But there seems to be an idea that you can use return ticket validity to determine Rover/Ranger validity. I don't believe that this is the case.

 

[221129]

No. We are discussing Rovers and Rangers. But there seems to be an idea that you can use return ticket validity to determine Rover/Ranger validity. I don't believe that this is the case.

I would agree. The question is does 'Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00' mean if you board a train before 0429 you can use it to your destination, or does it mean it is only valid until 0429 and you have to be off the train by then?

 

[spark001uk]

I think the context we are trying to establish here is either:

A) It's a rover, with no printed destination, so you're off at the first peak stop (post 0429), or
B) It's a rover, and your intended destination is in peak validity, but you began before 0429, so it's valid for the whole intended journey.

 

[221129]

I think the context we are trying to establish here is either:

A) It's a rover, with no printed destination, so you're off at the first peak stop (post 0429), or
B) It's a rover, and your intended destination is in peak validity, but you began before 0429, so it's valid for the whole intended journey.

I think we should stop using peak/off peak wording as it is irrelevant for this type of ticket. What matters is the restriction code, in this case B3

Mondays-Fridays
OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00

 

[richw]

I would argue if I boarded a 0411 train, then I was timed departing before 0429. I have a friend who works as an RPI at GWR, I will do some questioning when I see him next, if we haven't solved by then.

 

[Haywain]

I think we should stop using peak/off peak wording as it is irrelevant for this type of ticket. What matters is the restriction code, in this case B3

Mondays-Fridays
OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00

Having got to the point of forgetting what the question was at the start, I've gone back and checked and, in view of the clear wording of the restriction, would say that the OP would have a valid ticket for his Monday morning journey in conjunction with a ticket to Tiverton Parkway, but it would be more questionable in conjunction with a ticket to Exeter because if the departure time from Exeter being after 04:30.

 

[spark001uk]

Having got to the point of forgetting what the question was at the start, I've gone back and checked and, in view of the clear wording of the restriction, would say that the OP would have a valid ticket for his Monday morning journey in conjunction with a ticket to Tiverton Parkway, but it would be more questionable in conjunction with a ticket to Exeter because if the departure time from Exeter being after 04:30.

This is correct, that's why I got the Tiverton ticket and exercised paragraph 14.2 on it - tho after all that I didn't get checked anyway! However, someone earlier said that because it's a rover valid to any station on the route, it becomes invalid at the first station called at after 0429, and we can't seem to get confirmation on it as yet. As I said before, I asked 2 RPI's once, one said yes and the other no!

From a sensible point of view, I would be inclined to say, I have a ticket valid as far as Tiverton (passed at 0250, off-peak), hooked up to the rover (under para 14.2), and I have selected a journey to Penzance. So it would be valid as it began before 0429.

However, if I wanted to do the journey planner's suggested change at Plymouth, to get the 0600 (MO) XC service to get an earlier arrival into pnz, I would then say it's fair to question its validity from there.

That sound about right? I'd say so.