Off Peak validity on Night Riviera Sleeper?

[spark001uk]

Hi, question on off-peak validity on the Night Riviera sleeper. I can see there is a closed thread on a similar (but not quite the same) issue from a number of years back, but this is a bit different anyway, I shall explain. It does get a little technical but please bear with me.

I'm looking at taking the night riviera to Penzance (as seated passenger) departing in the very early morning (dep. 0038) from Reading.
I want to use a combination of an advance single to Exeter SD, then an 8-in-15 day Freedom of Devon and Cornwall Rover for the remainder of the journey.

Now, that Rover has an off-peak validity, so it's not valid before 9am. However, departure from Exeter is 0411, and the online booking sites show off peak tickets as valid, I am assuming that's because the journey begins before the 0429 cutoff. With that in mind, I assume my rover is valid?

So, assuming that is a yes, I now have a down side to that, in that I'm actually looking at planning it for a Monday morning, for which the sleeper unfortunately has different timings to the other nights. It's booked to depart Exeter at 0435, a mere six mins after the 0429 cutoff time! So I assume with that in mind (and that booking sites only show an Anytime ticket for it), my journey from Exeter to Penzance is now going to be classed as peak, and not be valid?

OK so if that's the case - and here's where it gets a little more technical - can I then state that my rover has it's boundary at Tiverton, which the train passes before the cutoff time, at 0250, and cite the famous nrcoc 19(c) which negates the train having to stop there being that one of my tickets is classed as a Leisure pass. This will then effectively bring it into force before the cutoff time and therefore be off-peak?

In fact now I've explained all that, it sounds more complicated than I thought!

I need to try and find an absolute answer if I can, because all I've had so far is contradictory.
I did actually do this exact journey a couple of years back, and I had my tickets checked by an RPI coming through the train in the morning (after Exeter), and he didn't say anything about the rover (although he did initially tell me off as I'd forgotten to fill the date box in!), and then I remember asking an RPI at a station on a seperate occasion just out of curiosity, and they said no it's not valid on the sleeper! Also I remember reading somewhere that the sleeper is off-peak throughout anyway, so all in all I do wonder if all this is a bit of a "grey area".??

 

[221129]

Now, that Rover has an off-peak validity, so it's not valid before 9am. However, departure from Exeter is 0411, and the online booking sites show off peak tickets as valid, I am assuming that's because the journey begins before the 0429 cutoff. With that in mind, I assume my rover is valid?

No. It is not. It is vaild before 0429 however you would need a ticket from the first station the train passes through AFTER 0429. So you can use it from Tiverton - Exeter but you would need a single ticket from Exeter to Penzance.

Your best bet would be to buy a Reading - Penzance Advance. Or travel on a Saturday morning if possible.

 

[spark001uk]

No. It is not. It is vaild before 0429 however you would need a ticket from the first station the train passes through AFTER 0429. So you can use it from Tiverton - Exeter but you would need a single ticket from Exeter to Penzance.

Your best bet would be to buy a Reading - Penzance Advance. Or travel on a Saturday morning if possible.

Ok, so how come the booking engines show an off peak ticket available from exeter to penzance on the usual weekday sleeper that departs Exeter 0411. Shouldn't that be invalid once 0429 passes then?

 

[221129]

No. An Exeter to Penzance Off Peak Day Single is Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 08:33. As the sleeper departs Exeter before 0429 it is valid. As a point to point journey.

However a rover must be valid for every station call. So on the 0411 you could use it between Exeter and Newton Abbot but after newton Abbot you would need a new ticket.

 

[spark001uk]

No. An Exeter to Penzance Off Peak Day Single is Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 08:33. As the sleeper departs Exeter before 0429 it is valid. As a point to point journey.

However a rover must be valid for every station call. So on the 0411 you could use it between Exeter and Newton Abbot but after newton Abbot you would need a new ticket.

Right ok I get it now. So that RPI on the train shouldn't have let it go then. I guess it just depends who it is and how much they know?

 

[221129]

Right ok I get it now. So that RPI on the train shouldn't have let it go then. I guess it just depends who it is and how much they know?

Basically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. It is not. It is vaild before 0429 however you would need a ticket from the first station the train passes through AFTER 0429. So you can use it from Tiverton - Exeter but you would need a single ticket from Exeter to Penzance.

I'd have said the last station before 0429, personally, which might mean one further back - the principle being you cannot be on a train across that time. Is it written down anywhere to confirm which is correct?

 

[221129]

I'd have said the last station before 0429, personally, which might mean one further back - the principle being you cannot be on a train across that time. Is it written down anywhere to confirm which is correct?

Timed to depart after 0429.

 

[yorkie]

However a rover must be valid for every station call.

Out of interest, where is this documented?

 

[221129]

Out of interest, where is this documented?

From National Rail

Valid for travel after 09:00 Mondays to Fridays and at any time of the day at weekends.

Restriction Code B3

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00

 

[adrock1976]

From National Rail

Valid for travel after 09:00 Mondays to Fridays and at any time of the day at weekends.

Restriction Code B3

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00

To clarify, is that code for the Rover, or an Off Peak Day Return (the former CDR in BR days)?

Furthermore, if the passenger uses the rover from a station before 04:29, I have always believed it is acceptable to use it to travel all the way to Penzance, as the journey began before the 04:30 cut off.

In regard to the former CDR fares, how come then I can purchase a Glasgow Central - Preston CDR and travel on the outward leg on the 04:28 London Euston via Trent Valley Railway, even though the train arrives at Preston at circa 06:57?

Perhaps somebody could clarify if that is the case or not in regards to the rover?

 

[spark001uk]

Perhaps somebody could clarify if that is the case or not in regards to the rover?

This is what I am trying to find, as there is plenty of info relating to "point to point" tickets, but nothing solid on rovers.

As I said earlier, an RPI on the sleeper a while back didn't query me on my rover from the off-peak standpoint, and you don't get much more senior than an RPI checking your ticket. But as also said, it depends how good the individual is at their job as well. And I read somewhere that the sleeper was off-peak throughout, though I can't remember where. Is that just a myth, or is there some truth to it?

 

[yorkie]

From National Rail

Valid for travel after 09:00 Mondays to Fridays and at any time of the day at weekends.

Restriction Code B3

Not valid on trains timed to
depart after 04:29 and before 09:00

But if you travel at a valid time, what's to say the ticket is invalidated by the train calling at a station calling at a subsequent station?

 

[spark001uk]

How about this then? The Summary of your rights, at the beginning of nrcoc, states:

You can:
• Start, break or resume your journey using trains on which your ticket is valid
unless you are [B]told[/B] about particular restrictions that apply to the use of your ticket.

So to me, that reads that it's up to the ticket clerk / barrier staff to verbally inform the ticket holder of any restrictions?

I'd say a large proportion of people getting pulled up on this sort of thing just claim "Well nobody told me it wasn't valid".
Only the other day a lady behind me got pulled up on a ticket being used just before 10am on a network card discount, and she said "well they sold me the ticket and I asked when the next train was and they told me 0950". To which he felt he should let it go as it wasn't her fault, and so he did.

I know it's ultimately down to the passenger to know when it's valid, but what's the official stance on being misinformed?

 

[Richard_B]

B3 is the restriction on the rover.

I agree with OPs booking engine results..

Because the Exeter leg starts after 0430 on a Monday it isn't valid, but in a sensible world it would be. Unless the Monday train only gets rammed full at Exeter and all the other nights don't, which I find unlikely..

 

[spark001uk]

B3 is the restriction on the rover.

I agree with OPs booking engine results..

Because the Exeter leg starts after 0430 on a Monday it isn't valid, but in a sensible world it would be. Unless the Monday train only gets rammed full at Exeter and all the other nights don't, which I find unlikely..

This is probably why the RPI allowed it, because technically my intended journey is Reading to Penzance, and I'm providing two tickets to cover it, and as discussed there are a couple of ways of presenting them. Like you say, it's not usually busy, so it'd be a discretionary decision more than anything I reckon.

 

[richw]

I've a GWR rover booklet, and that says the times mentioned above and also says it is valid on any journey when a off peak day return would be valid. An off peak day return is valid on the Tuesday to Saturday morning, but not Monday morning, so therefore the Freedom of Cornwall and Devon is arguably valid on the 0411, but not the 0435 for a journey commencing in Exeter.

Mon to Fri: valid from 09:00 or from when the off-peak day ticket becomes valid if earlier

 

[spark001uk]

I've a GWR rover booklet, and that says the times mentioned above and also says it is valid on any journey when a off peak day return would be valid. An off peak day return is valid on the Tuesday to Saturday morning, but not Monday morning, so therefore the Freedom of Cornwall and Devon is arguably valid on the 0411, but not the 0435 for a journey commencing in Exeter.

Technically, yes. But-

If the journey starts before 0429, does a rover then become invalid at the first station it stops at after 0429? Or does it behave like a point-to-point ticket, ie the ticket is valid when the intended journey starts.?

 

[richw]

Technically, yes. But-

If the journey starts before 0429, does a rover then become invalid at the first station it stops at after 0429? Or does it behave like a point-to-point ticket, ie the ticket is valid when the intended journey starts.?

Point to point, the advise is to check if an off peak day ticket is valid for your journey

 

[spark001uk]

Point to point, the advise is to check if an off peak day ticket is valid for your journey

On any other morning yes, as it departs Exeter 0411. On a Monday it leaves 0435, so technically no, on a point-to-point. However, it passes Tiverton at 0250, so if I intend my rover to start there, even though it doesn't stop there it should be valid under NRCoC 19(c).

 

[Richard_B]

You wouldn't be able to buy an advance to Tiverton though and to do that on an advance to Exeter would be againsnt the rules as it would be ending short. Reading to Tiverton offpeak single is £40.20

 

[richw]

It doesn't normally go via Tiverton on a sunday night/Monday morning. Normally takes the Honiton route Sunday night.

19(c) has been changed in the October 2016 changes, and is no longer 19(c)

It is now 14.2 and definitely valid but you will need to know the route in advance. There will not be advances available to those stations it doesn't stop at. You may need either Tiverton or Axminster.

14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

 

[spark001uk]

You wouldn't be able to buy an advance to Tiverton though and to do that on an advance to Exeter would be againsnt the rules as it would be ending short. Reading to Tiverton offpeak single is £40.20

No, but condition 19 states that you need 2 or more tickets that cover the entire journey, and that the train stops at the station(s) I intend to change tickets, unless one of those tickets is a rover of 3 or more days in 7.

I would be changing tickets at Tiverton, there's no shortfall, it's an overlap. Therefore it satisfies NRCoC in that they "cover the entire journey".

It doesn't normally go via Tiverton on a sunday night/Monday morning. Normally takes the Honiton route Sunday night.

Not lately. Last Sunday it went down the kennet, and this Sunday it's booked via Temple Meads.

 

[richw]

No, but condition 19 states that you need 2 or more tickets that cover the entire journey, and that the train stops at the station(s) I intend to change tickets, unless one of those tickets is a rover of 3 or more days in 7.

I would be changing tickets at Tiverton, there's no shortfall, it's an overlap. Therefore it satisfies NRCoC in that they "cover the entire journey".

As above 19(c) is no longer relevant. The new version is more favourable. The sleeper doesn't stop at Tiverton so 19(c) would make your plan invalid as one of the tickets had to be a season, a Rover isn't a season. 14.2 doesn't require a stop when using a Rover.

 

[spark001uk]

As above 19(c) is no longer relevant. The new version is more favourable. The sleeper doesn't stop at Tiverton so 19(c) would make your plan invalid as one of the tickets had to be a season, a Rover isn't a season. 14.2 doesn't require a stop when using a Rover.

The old 19(c) did also include Rovers of 3 days or more.

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

What I'm not sure of though, is why in the new 14.2 they now state that the last station one ticket is valid must be the same as the first station the other is valid. I would've thought if they overlap it doesn't matter?

 

[Richard_B]

No, but condition 19 states that you need 2 or more tickets that cover the entire journey, and that the train stops at the station(s) I intend to change tickets, unless one of those tickets is a rover of 3 or more days in 7.

I would be changing tickets at Tiverton, there's no shortfall, it's an overlap. Therefore it satisfies NRCoC in that they "cover the entire journey".

That would be fine if you change tickets at exeter. but by changing off an advance at tiverton, you'd be breaking its conditions as it has be used from Origin to Destination printed on the ticket.

What I'm not sure of though, is why in the new 14.2 they now state that the last station one ticket is valid must be the same as the first station the other is valid. I would've thought if they overlap it doesn't matter?

There are other threads with this argument..

 

[spark001uk]

That would be fine if you change tickets at exeter. but by changing off an advance at tiverton, you'd be breaking its conditions as it has be used from Origin to Destination printed on the ticket.

There are other threads with this argument..

Ok, just found one. I may well ask in that thread, but my immediate question would be if the paper stock my ticket gets printed on still has NRCoC written on the back, am I only bound by just that, and not NRCoT!?

EDIT: Found it, they made sure of that one right off the bat.!!

Any reference to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage on websites, Tickets, publications etc refers to the terms and conditions set out in the National Rail Conditions of Travel. These conditions apply in addition to your statutory rights.

 

[Hadders]

my immediate question would be if the paper stock my ticket gets printed on still has NRCoC written on the back, am I only bound by just that, and not NRCoT!?

You won't get away with that as the NRCOT states that any reference to the NRCOC now refers to the NRCOT.

 

[spark001uk]

OK right I think I've sorted it now, I'm a bit late to get a particularly cheap advance now anyway, so I'm going to get a super off-peak return to Tiverton, and a FODC rover. So by combination under 14.2 it's a valid through ticket to Penzance.
It might have been OK from Exeter but I didn't want to take a chance with the post-0429 departure from there. And ironically the ticket is the same price to Tiverton as to Exeter anyway!!

Only thing I might not be able to get now is a seat res on the sleeper, I'll have to call GWR on that one.

 

[Paul Kelly]

You won't get away with that as the NRCOT states that any reference to the NRCOC now refers to the NRCOT.

Doesn't the NRCoC also say that a TOC has no authority to change or waiver the conditions? If the ticket says the NRCoC apply, and the NRCoC say they can't be changed or waivered, how does what the NRCoT says come into it?!