Off-peak ticket used during peak time

[EmbedShampoos]

Stations involved: Burley Park to Leeds (duration of approx 4 minutes)
Ticket used: Off-peak ticket, return, From Burley Park to Leeds. Off-peak ticket was bought due to muscle memory and the rush of purchasing the ticket before the train arrived. Cost of ticket is £2.55 with 16-25 railcard.
Railcard: 16-25, expiry date 08/09/2025. I am 24.
When ticket was purchased: Approx 08:50 using TransPennine Express App
Train used: 05/09/2025 Burley Park 08:53 - Leeds 08:58 https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=136839268

Encounter:
I arrived at the barriers of Leeds approximately 09:00. Attempted to scan ticket, which returned a request to seek staff assistance.

Spoke to nearby staff member requesting assistance, under impression that error code was caused by a need to validate railcard. Showed staff member railcard, and staff member requested to see the ticket, which I did. Staff noticed that the ticket I had purchased was an off-peak ticket. I expressed my surprise and apologized, asking her what I could do.

Another staff member was called over. I showed him my ticket once again, and he requested my railcard, which I also displayed. He requested my ID, which I provided. Approximately 2 minutes after providing my ID, I was provided with a Penalty Fare Notice with a charge of £104. The staff member suggested I visit penaltyservices.co.uk to make my case in an attempt to reduce the penalty fare.

I thanked the staff member and pulled out a notebook to take notes. I was unable to validate my notes with the staff member as the staff member was, by then, handling another passenger, and did not engage me. I requested to exit the barriers approximately 09:07 and was let out.

Next Steps:
Visit penaltyservices.co.uk to make my case in an attempt to reduce the penalty fare. Intended focus when making my case will be on the nature of the mistake and the low value of the fare. Unsure what exact evidence I can provide, or if I am missing anything glaringly obvious. Due to many of the other posts posted on this forum being horror stories involving people unable to properly navigate the procedures of Penalty Fares, I decided to post on this forum before submitting my appeal to penaltyservices.co.uk.

Satisfactory outcome: A reduction of the penalty fare to a value similar to the price of a Anytime return ticket between Burley Park and Leeds (£4).

If more information is required please do not hesitate to let me know. I will do my best to reply to this thread.

 

[JBuchananGB]

On the face of things the Penalty fare has been issued correctly. Your Muscle Memory has cost you £54 if you pay promptly. Feel free to upload the PF docket here with personal details redacted, just in case anyone can think of a technicality. £4 is the Undiscounted Anytime Single fare from Burley Park to Leeds. Your Off-Peak ticket was not valid for the outward part of your journey. You could of course use it for the return part as long as you did not intend to travel between 1601 & 1829.

 

[jamiearmley]

I must ask : you purchased your ticket at 08:50. You bought an off peak day return, and applied your 16-25 Railcard discount.

The off peak day return is not valid until 09:30.

You cannot use your Railcard on anytime, or off peak tickets before 10:00am, Monday to Friday, unless the tickets value exceeds £12.

In order to purchase your ticket, you will have had to ignore the following trains on your search result:

08:53
09:15
09:41
09:51
in order to purchase a ticket for the 10:14, which is the first train in the list of results presented to you on the app which would have been both off peak, and allow your Railcard discount.

This would have involved scrolling down a little.

That's impressive muscle memory.

Further, over the summer, all the apps have been adjusted to display a warning about the minimum fare rule applying to your Railcard. Since the 1st September, when the minimum fare rule came back into force after the summer break, your app will have displayed this warning.

You haven't been penalty fared for an off peak ticket in peak time - indeed, you cannot be penalty fared for an off peak ticket in peak time. The only remedy for that is an excess.

It looks very much like you have been penalty fared for choosing a later train on the app, and travelling earlier, in order to circumvent the minimum fare rule which applies to your Railcard .

 

[Puffing Devil]

Based on the details you've shared, it appears the penalty fare was correctly issued in this situation.

Normally, if you have a ticket that is simply not valid for the time of travel, the staff would issue you an excess fare to cover the difference between your off-peak ticket and an Anytime ticket.

However, in this case, the ticket could not be excessed. The 16-25 Railcard's terms and conditions have a minimum fare of £12 for journeys made before 10:00 a.m. on weekdays. Because your ticket cost £2.55, it was invalid on this basis alone. Since you were travelling with an invalid ticket, the only correct course of action for the staff was to issue a Penalty Fare Notice.

For this reason, none of the points you have mentioned are official grounds for an appeal. It would be worth sharing a photo of the Penalty Fare notice as there may be an error in the paperwork itself.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

On the face of things the Penalty fare has been issued correctly. Your Muscle Memory has cost you £54 if you pay promptly. Feel free to upload the PF docket here with personal details redacted, just in case anyone can think of a technicality. £4 is the Undiscounted Anytime Single fare from Burley Park to Leeds. Your Off-Peak ticket was not valid for the outward part of your journey. You could of course use it for the return part as long as you did not intend to travel between 1601 & 1829.

Based on the details you've shared, it appears the penalty fare was correctly issued in this situation.

Normally, if you have a ticket that is simply not valid for the time of travel, the staff would issue you an excess fare to cover the difference between your off-peak ticket and an Anytime ticket.

However, in this case, the ticket could not be excessed. The 16-25 Railcard's terms and conditions have a minimum fare of £12 for journeys made before 10:00 a.m. on weekdays. Because your ticket cost £2.55, it was invalid on this basis alone. Since you were travelling with an invalid ticket, the only correct course of action for the staff was to issue a Penalty Fare Notice.

For this reason, none of the points you have mentioned are official grounds for an appeal. It would be worth sharing a photo of the Penalty Fare notice as there may be an error in the paperwork itself.

Thank you very much for your time and input. I have attached the relevant Penalty Fare notice.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

I must ask : you purchased your ticket at 08:50. You bought an off peak day return, and applied your 16-25 Railcard discount.

The off peak day return is not valid until 09:30.

You cannot use your Railcard on anytime, or off peak tickets before 10:00am, Monday to Friday, unless the tickets value exceeds £12.

In order to purchase your ticket, you will have had to ignore the following trains on your search result:

08:53
09:15
09:41
09:51
in order to purchase a ticket for the 10:14, which is the first train in the list of results presented to you on the app which would have been both off peak, and allow your Railcard discount.

This would have involved scrolling down a little.

That's impressive muscle memory.

Further, over the summer, all the apps have been adjusted to display a warning about the minimum fare rule applying to your Railcard. Since the 1st September, when the minimum fare rule came back into force after the summer break, your app will have displayed this warning.

You haven't been penalty fared for an off peak ticket in peak time - indeed, you cannot be penalty fared for an off peak ticket in peak time. The only remedy for that is an excess.

It looks very much like you have been penalty fared for choosing a later train on the app, and travelling earlier, in order to circumvent the minimum fare rule which applies to your Railcard .

The TPE app has it's peculiarities, but the "favorites" feature is one that I welcome, and my choice of muscle memory purchase involves this feature, which automatically applies my most frequent settings when traveling from Burley Park to Leeds. I am surprised the other train apps on my phone (such as SWR) do not do this.

Not a lot of room for scrolling, and not a lot of room to show the following:

08:53
09:15
09:41
09:51

> Further, over the summer, all the apps have been adjusted to display a warning about the minimum fare rule applying to your Railcard. Since the 1st September, when the minimum fare rule came back into force after the summer break, your app will have displayed this warning.

If it did, it certainly failed to pop in here today. I suspect, once again, the TPE app has it's peculiarities. I will attempt to screengrab this warning (or lack thereof) during the next peak times, but I welcome you to try it yourself on the Android TPE app (I'm on Android Version 14, One UI 6.1, API Level 34). If you do find the warning on the same route at approximately the same time, please let me know, as that is a sign something on my phone has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Your comment does provide some critical insight - perhaps Northern Rail staff did not believe my muscle memory could have caused this and thought I was making a tall tale.

 

[furlong]

Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

9.5Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling;
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

As such, you were entitled to pay the difference. A Penalty Fare shouldn't be imposed on you in these circumstances: you should appeal on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations quoting this and saying under the contract you were entitled to pay the difference. (If they had evidence you were deliberately trying to avoid paying the correct fare, they could have reported you for prosecution. Regardless, they might now examine your app usage and ticket scan data to look for any problems.)

The train was the late-running 08:46.

Maybe you can reproduce your journey through the app (what you clicked and what it showed you) and demonstrate how this happened? What train times did you select for the search / purchase and why?

The TPE app looks pretty confusing to me. It was past the departure time of the service you were travelling on, so with a search for immediate travel the top one shown would have been the 09:15. When I try now, it highlights the price of advance tickets which are not what you wanted as presumably you didn't know the time of your return and walk-up returns are well hidden. (I see no warning about the minimum fare by the way, at least up to the point of having the ticket in my basket, but for the OP this is just a traditional peak/off-peak situation.)

 

[Haywain]

Stations involved: Burley Park to Leeds (duration of approx 4 minutes)
Ticket used: Off-peak ticket, return, From Burley Park to Leeds. Off-peak ticket was bought due to muscle memory and the rush of purchasing the ticket before the train arrived. Cost of ticket is £2.55 with 16-25 railcard.
Railcard: 16-25, expiry date 08/09/2025. I am 24.
When ticket was purchased: Approx 08:50 using TransPennine Express App
Train used: 05/09/2025 Burley Park 08:53 - Leeds 08:58 https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=136839268

Encounter:
I arrived at the barriers of Leeds approximately 09:00. Attempted to scan ticket, which returned a request to seek staff assistance.

Spoke to nearby staff member requesting assistance, under impression that error code was caused by a need to validate railcard. Showed staff member railcard, and staff member requested to see the ticket, which I did. Staff noticed that the ticket I had purchased was an off-peak ticket. I expressed my surprise and apologized, asking her what I could do.

Another staff member was called over. I showed him my ticket once again, and he requested my railcard, which I also displayed. He requested my ID, which I provided. Approximately 2 minutes after providing my ID, I was provided with a Penalty Fare Notice with a charge of £104. The staff member suggested I visit penaltyservices.co.uk to make my case in an attempt to reduce the penalty fare.

I thanked the staff member and pulled out a notebook to take notes. I was unable to validate my notes with the staff member as the staff member was, by then, handling another passenger, and did not engage me. I requested to exit the barriers approximately 09:07 and was let out.

Next Steps:
Visit penaltyservices.co.uk to make my case in an attempt to reduce the penalty fare. Intended focus when making my case will be on the nature of the mistake and the low value of the fare. Unsure what exact evidence I can provide, or if I am missing anything glaringly obvious. Due to many of the other posts posted on this forum being horror stories involving people unable to properly navigate the procedures of Penalty Fares, I decided to post on this forum before submitting my appeal to penaltyservices.co.uk.

Satisfactory outcome: A reduction of the penalty fare to a value similar to the price of a Anytime return ticket between Burley Park and Leeds (£4).

If more information is required please do not hesitate to let me know. I will do my best to reply to this thread.

Have you a history of travelling from Burley Park to Leeds and an address that would suggest that is a realistic journey for you? This is a very popular ticket for people travelling into Leeds and avoiding the correct fare so your case will be looked at with justifiable suspicion.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel:



As such, you were entitled to pay the difference. A Penalty Fare shouldn't be imposed on you in these circumstances: you should appeal on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations quoting this and saying under the contract you were entitled to pay the difference. (If they had evidence you were deliberately trying to avoid paying the correct fare, they could have reported you for prosecution. Regardless, they might now examine your app usage and ticket scan data to look for any problems.)

The train was the late-running 08:46.

Maybe you can reproduce your journey through the app (what you clicked and what it showed you) and demonstrate how this happened? What train times did you select for the search / purchase and why?

The TPE app looks pretty confusing to me. It was past the departure time of the service you were travelling on, so with a search for immediate travel the top one shown would have been the 09:15. When I try now, it highlights the price of advance tickets which are not what you wanted as presumably you didn't know the time of your return and walk-up returns are well hidden. (I see no warning about the minimum fare by the way, at least up to the point of having the ticket in my basket, but for the OP this is just a traditional peak/off-peak situation.)

The ticket was not valid because the minimum fare for the railcard was not met. If no railcard had been used, then an excess would be a valid course of action.

The question of "excessing up" is a key point. The National Rail Conditions of Travel state that a passenger must hold a valid ticket for their journey. A ticket that has been discounted below the minimum fare is not valid for travel during the restricted time.

The general principle is that if a passenger's ticket is invalid, they are treated as if they had no ticket at all.

While some railway staff may show discretion and offer to "excess up" the ticket to the minimum fare, they are not obligated to do so. The decision to "excess up" is at the discretion of the train company's staff, and passengers are not entitled to this option.

In this case, a Penalty Fare is the correct outcome.

 

[furlong]

Minimum fare is irrelevant here (but even if it was, 9.5.1 would still apply - the railcard imposes its own time restriction).

The code is ND:
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 or after 16:00 and before 18:30.

It was before 09:30. It's a straightforward use of an off-peak ticket at a peak time. The railcard just adds another parallel time restriction of 10:00. Both were breached and both are covered by 9.5.1.

We don't know if this was the case here, but moreover (as covered in the famous cases in the press last year), as it's September, and there was no restriction in August, it's not unusual for people to see the "wrong" fare in the app and assume it's a glitch in the app and scroll down to find the price they were expecting.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel:



As such, you were entitled to pay the difference. A Penalty Fare shouldn't be imposed on you in these circumstances: you should appeal on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations quoting this and saying under the contract you were entitled to pay the difference. (If they had evidence you were deliberately trying to avoid paying the correct fare, they could have reported you for prosecution. Regardless, they might now examine your app usage and ticket scan data to look for any problems.)

The train was the late-running 08:46.

Maybe you can reproduce your journey through the app (what you clicked and what it showed you) and demonstrate how this happened? What train times did you select for the search / purchase and why?

The TPE app looks pretty confusing to me. It was past the departure time of the service you were travelling on, so with a search for immediate travel the top one shown would have been the 09:15. When I try now, it highlights the price of advance tickets which are not what you wanted as presumably you didn't know the time of your return and walk-up returns are well hidden. (I see no warning about the minimum fare by the way, at least up to the point of having the ticket in my basket, but for the OP this is just a traditional peak/off-peak situation.)

Thank you for your comment. Commentator Puffing Devil mentioned that the use of the Railcard made the ticket invalid.

As for what Train Times I picked, I did not pick a time. The new TPE app has a "favorites" feature, which automatically applies my most frequent settings when traveling from Burley Park to Leeds without selecting a date. A convenient feature, until now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2025 ==

Have you a history of travelling from Burley Park to Leeds and an address that would suggest that is a realistic journey for you? This is a very popular ticket for people travelling into Leeds and avoiding the correct fare so your case will be looked at with justifiable suspicion.

Yes I do. I can, quite easily, provide proof of address in the Burley Park area. One of the offices I visit is near the Leeds Station area, but I am unsure how to prove that I work there as I do not have any posted mail towards that address.

The following is my history of travelling from Burley Park to Leeds, usually setting off around 12:00.

 

[reb0118]

I concur, I suspect this is because of the minimum fare circumvention.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Minimum fare is irrelevant here (but even if it was, 9.5.1 would still apply - the railcard imposes its own time restriction).

The code is ND:
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 or after 16:00 and before 18:30.

It was before 09:30. It's a straightforward use of an off-peak ticket at a peak time.

Would the Anytime ticket bought with a railcard for this journey be valid? No.

Excessing up to an invalid fare is not possible.

Excessing up a railcard ticket below the minimum fare is not possible.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

On the face of things the Penalty fare has been issued correctly. Your Muscle Memory has cost you £54 if you pay promptly. Feel free to upload the PF docket here with personal details redacted, just in case anyone can think of a technicality. £4 is the Undiscounted Anytime Single fare from Burley Park to Leeds. Your Off-Peak ticket was not valid for the outward part of your journey. You could of course use it for the return part as long as you did not intend to travel between 1601 & 1829.

Based on the details you've shared, it appears the penalty fare was correctly issued in this situation.

Normally, if you have a ticket that is simply not valid for the time of travel, the staff would issue you an excess fare to cover the difference between your off-peak ticket and an Anytime ticket.

However, in this case, the ticket could not be excessed. The 16-25 Railcard's terms and conditions have a minimum fare of £12 for journeys made before 10:00 a.m. on weekdays. Because your ticket cost £2.55, it was invalid on this basis alone. Since you were travelling with an invalid ticket, the only correct course of action for the staff was to issue a Penalty Fare Notice.

For this reason, none of the points you have mentioned are official grounds for an appeal. It would be worth sharing a photo of the Penalty Fare notice as there may be an error in the paperwork itself.

Thank you for your reply. I have attached the PF below. Apologies for the delayed response, my original comment is still awaiting moderator approval since 22:30 but I've been able to make other replies since 23:25, and I don't want to give the impression I am intentionally ignoring your valuable comments.

 

[reb0118]

Yes I do. I can, quite easily, provide proof of address in the Burley Park area. One of the offices I visit is near the Leeds Station area, but I am unsure how to prove that I work there as I do not have any posted mail towards that address.

I wouldn't worry about this at present. No allegation has been made in regard to short fareing. However, proof of your address near to Burley Park would suffice in that regard. Even if short fareing were suspected you would not, generally, have to prove what you get up to in Leeds as there would be no dispute that you did in fact arrive at Leeds - it's where you board that matters in these incidences. Strike that thought from your mind.

 

[furlong]

Would the Anytime ticket bought with a railcard for this journey be valid? No.
Excessing up to an invalid fare is not possible.
Excessing up a railcard ticket below the minimum fare is not possible.

The contract requires the difference to be paid. How the train companies handle that is for them. But if offered cash for the difference, they basically either accept it (and if their retail system doesn't handle it, leave the back office to sort it out) or write it off.

Given you used a 'favourites' facility, I suggest you make a recording (or take screenshots) of the complete process and note where it explained to you that the ticket wasn't valid before 10am (which presumably you missed in your haste). Note that if it didn't warn you about the time restrictions on the ticket, there might be an argument that they are unenforceable. During the purchase process the app should have prominently stated that there were time restrictions on the use of the ticket you were purchasing and given you the ability to view those restrictions.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

The contract requires the difference to be paid. How the train companies handle that is for them. But if offered cash for the difference, they basically either accept it (and if their retail system doesn't handle it, leave the back office to sort it out) or write it off.

Given you used a 'favourites' facility, I suggest you make a recording (or take screenshots) of the complete process and note where it explained to you that the ticket wasn't valid before 10am (which presumably you missed in your haste). Note that if it didn't warn you about the time restrictions on the ticket, there might be an argument that they are unenforceable. During the purchase process the app should have prominently stated that there were time restrictions on the use of the ticket you were purchasing and given you the ability to view those restrictions.

I was more than willing to pay the difference. This was not an option offered to me by the staff member.

The TPE app refuses to cooperate with any recording software on my phone, so these screenshots will have to do. It is hard to prove the lack of information - after all it could be argued I could have just chosen not to upload it, or even prove that this is an ordinary customer journey.

I did try scouting out the appeals page on https://www.penaltyservices.co.uk/, and found it only allows 5 images to be uploaded maximum, and no videos allowed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

To any other watchers of this thread, I apologize if the PF is not showing: I have uploaded it twice at 2230 and 2325. Both cases are stuck in moderator review. Please trust me when I say I am not intentionally ignoring anyone.

 

[furlong]

Well I haven't tried the favourites, but I was distinctly unimpressed with the information provided by the app when I tried it earlier so I can well imagine it's not doing a good job of making sure you are aware of all the relevant restrictions when buying a ticket. (There are other apps that manage to do this much better.) If it doesn't clearly explain the 10am restriction during the transaction, then that's certainly worth including as evidence in the appeal. But the primary ground for appeal is what I said earlier - that under 9.5.1 you were entitled to pay the difference. If the app failed to make clear your ticket wasn't valid before 10am - noting in particular that you were buying it before 10am and that the app uses location data so it knew you were at the station - that helps to explain how it happened.

 

[WesternLancer]

As an aside if you renew your railcard before your imminent 25th birthday you will be able to use it over the age of 25 until it expires iirc.

Afaik the 16-25 railcard has slightly more generous use terms than the 26-30 railcard making this advantageous but you should compare the t&c snot be sure.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

Well I haven't tried the favourites, but I was distinctly unimpressed with the information provided by the app when I tried it earlier so I can well imagine it's not doing a good job of making sure you are aware of all the relevant restrictions when buying a ticket. (There are other apps that manage to do this much better.) If it doesn't clearly explain the 10am restriction during the transaction, then that's certainly worth including as evidence in the appeal. But the primary ground for appeal is what I said earlier - that under 9.5.1 you were entitled to pay the difference. If the app failed to make clear your ticket wasn't valid before 10am - noting in particular that you were buying it before 10am and that the app uses location data so it knew you were at the station - that helps to explain how it happened.

Here's my draft appeal to penaltyservices.co.uk. Images uploaded are Proof of Address via bank letter with recent date, Ticket that I bought this morning, 2 screenshots on the TPE app showing that I regularly use the Burley Park - Leeds route, and the copy of notice.

Ticket used: Off-peak ticket, return, From Burley Park to Leeds. Off-peak ticket was bought due to muscle memory and the rush of purchasing the ticket before the train arrived. Order ID: 325502.
When ticket was purchased: Approx 08:50 using TransPennine Express App
Train used: 05/09/2025 Burley Park 08:53 - Leeds 08:58

I arrived at Leeds approximately 09:00. Attempted to scan ticket, which returned a request to seek staff assistance.

Requested assistance from nearby staff, when staff noticed that the ticket I had purchased was an off-peak ticket. I expressed my surprise and apologized, asking her what I could do. The latest TPE app has a "favorites" feature, which automatically applies my most frequent settings when purchasing a ticket for travel from Burley Park to Leeds, without showing the ticket was invalid before 10:00.

Still, I was prepared to excess fare to cover the difference between the off-peak ticket and an Anytime ticket, as I had been made aware by the staff that my ticket is not valid for the time of travel. According to my understanding, under National Rail Conditions of Travel 9.5.1, I am entitled to pay the difference.

I was subsequently provided with a Penalty Fare Notice with a charge of £104, approximately 26 times larger than the Anytime ticket from Burley to Leeds (£4). The staff member strongly suggested I visit penaltyservices.co.uk to appeal, to reduce the penalty fare.

They suggested I mention the contravention was an honest mistake from a regular customer, with a history of using the route legitimately to commute between home and the office during off-peak times. As a result, I am hoping a goodwill gesture can be made to reduce the penalty fare.

I'd be grateful if Penalty Services would reconsider and given the circumstances, reduce the penalty fare to a value similar to an Anytime ticket between Burley Park and Leeds.

Upload limits mean I can't show more evidence, unfortunately.

 

[transportphoto]

Excessing up a railcard ticket below the minimum fare is not possible.

It is possible to excess to the £12 minimum fare though - is there an argument that this should be the correct course of action? (To play devils advocate only.)

 

[gray1404]

Here's my draft appeal to penaltyservices.co.uk. Images uploaded are Proof of Address via bank letter with recent date, Ticket that I bought this morning, 2 screenshots on the TPE app showing that I regularly use the Burley Park - Leeds route, and the copy of notice.

You need to cut a lot of this down. A PF appeal is separate to a customer service complaint. You need to focus on how the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations (actually say that) and specifically stage why. That is the only way your appeal can be upheld.

Comments about being a regular customer and the PF being 26 times higher do not support your appeal. Do not ask them to reduce it to a value similar to another ticket as they cannot do that and you do not need to say that the member of staff said you should appeal.

 

[Snow1964]

The second screenshot (the payment page) does contain a lot of subject to conditions etc messages, which appear to be links.

So legally all the terms and conditions can be applied from a contract (contract to travel basis), however there is also consumer law and the Unfair Contract Terms Act, and failing to display the basic terms or limitations/restrictions can make the term unenforceable.

So if the time restrictions were hidden, and the app offered a ticket for sale (from a list of favourites), even though that favourite wasn't available to use before 09:30 then you would have valid case to claim back any losses from the ticket retailer for selling you a invalid dud.

Strictly it is 2 stages, pay the penalty, and then make claim against the retailer. Not sure how they will see it if they are both the same Company.

 

[WesternLancer]

Here's my draft appeal to penaltyservices.co.uk. Images uploaded are Proof of Address via bank letter with recent date, Ticket that I bought this morning, 2 screenshots on the TPE app showing that I regularly use the Burley Park - Leeds route, and the copy of notice.

Focus on the advice in post #22 from gray1404.

 

[yorkie]

Traditionally, this was not an appropriate/applicable reason to issue a Penalty Fare. I've not seen any formal statement that the rules have changed specifically to include instances of people travelling at an invalid time on a time restricted ticket. However, it's a complex case to argue, and some people may just want the matter go away, and therefore pay the penalty.

In my opinion, unless there is evidence of a deliberate attempt to avoid payment of the appropriate fare, the appropriate course of action is for the customer to be charged the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate undiscounted fare. Retail systems should be able to issue such excess fares; if they cannot, then that's a failing of the system.

If it was me, I'd pay under duress and make a fuss, e.g. contact my MP, lodge an appeal with the Rail Ombudsman, contact Transport Focus, write a formal complaint and escalate all of these to the highest level.

The problem with not paying the penalty fare, is that the problem could get worse.

Either way, if @EmbedShampoos would like a copy of some documentation that questions the use of PFs in such circumstances, feel free to drop me a message.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As an aside if you renew your railcard before your imminent 25th birthday you will be able to use it over the age of 25 until it expires iirc.

Afaik the 16-25 railcard has slightly more generous use terms than the 26-30 railcard making this advantageous but you should compare the t&c snot be sure.

The two main differences between the 16-25 and 26-30 Railcards are that a 26-30 Railcard can't be used on the Caledonian Sleeper and the July & August lifting of the minimum fare doesn't apply.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

You need to cut a lot of this down. A PF appeal is separate to a customer service complaint. You need to focus on how the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations (actually say that) and specifically stage why. That is the only way your appeal can be upheld.

Comments about being a regular customer and the PF being 26 times higher do not support your appeal. Do not ask them to reduce it to a value similar to another ticket as they cannot do that and you do not need to say that the member of staff said you should appeal.

Focus on the advice in post #22 from gray1404.

Thank you to both of your comments. I have revised the draft. Images uploaded are Ticket that I bought this morning, 2 screenshots on the TPE app showing that I regularly use the Burley Park - Leeds route, the copy of notice, and a screenshot of the TPE app favorites section to show the customer journey I went through.

2nd draft:

Ticket used: Off-peak ticket, return, From Burley Park to Leeds. Off-peak ticket was bought due to muscle memory and the rush of purchasing the ticket before the train arrived. Order ID: 325502.
When ticket was purchased: Approx 08:50 using TransPennine Express App
Train used: 05/09/2025 Burley Park 08:53 - Leeds 08:58

I arrived at Leeds approximately 09:00. Attempted to scan ticket, which returned a request to seek staff assistance.

Requested assistance from nearby staff, when staff noticed that the ticket I had purchased from the TPE app was an off-peak ticket. The latest TPE app has a "favorites" feature, which automatically applies my most frequent settings when purchasing a ticket for travel from Burley Park to Leeds, without showing the ticket was invalid before 10:00. I had been effectively sold a dud ticket from TPE.

According to my understanding, under National Rail Conditions of Travel Part C: 9.5.1, I am entitled to pay the difference.

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling;
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

I was subsequently provided with a Penalty Fare Notice with a charge of £104. I disagree with this as the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations, specifically National Rail Conditions of Travel Part C: 9.5.1. Furthermore, I did not deliberately attempt to avoid payment of the appropriate fare, and was sold an invalid ticket by the TPE app.

Upload limits mean I can't show more evidence, unfortunately.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

Traditionally, this was not an appropriate/applicable reason to issue a Penalty Fare. I've not seen any formal statement that the rules have changed specifically to include instances of people travelling at an invalid time on a time restricted ticket. However, it's a complex case to argue, and some people may just want the matter go away, and therefore pay the penalty.

In my opinion, unless there is evidence of a deliberate attempt to avoid payment of the appropriate fare, the appropriate course of action is for the customer to be charged the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate undiscounted fare. Retail systems should be able to issue such excess fares; if they cannot, then that's a failing of the system.

If it was me, I'd pay under duress and make a fuss, e.g. contact my MP, lodge an appeal with the Rail Ombudsman, contact Transport Focus, write a formal complaint and escalate all of these to the highest level.

The problem with not paying the penalty fare, is that the problem could get worse.

Either way, if @EmbedShampoos would like a copy of some documentation that questions the use of PFs in such circumstances, feel free to drop me a message.

Thank you for your reply. I welcome any documentation that is provided my way.

I fully intend to pay the PF under duress before the 26th of September 2025, and in the meantime I shall "make a fuss" by doing the following.

contact my MP, lodge an appeal with the Rail Ombudsman, contact Transport Focus, write a formal complaint and escalate all of these to the highest level.

If there is any recommended templates for doing all of the above, I would be happy to be redirected towards them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

The second screenshot (the payment page) does contain a lot of subject to conditions etc messages, which appear to be links.

So legally all the terms and conditions can be applied from a contract (contract to travel basis), however there is also consumer law and the Unfair Contract Terms Act, and failing to display the basic terms or limitations/restrictions can make the term unenforceable.

So if the time restrictions were hidden, and the app offered a ticket for sale (from a list of favourites), even though that favourite wasn't available to use before 09:30 then you would have valid case to claim back any losses from the ticket retailer for selling you a invalid dud.

Strictly it is 2 stages, pay the penalty, and then make claim against the retailer. Not sure how they will see it if they are both the same Company.

Thank you for your comment. I will focus on making the appeal first, but if no reply is given by 26th Sept 2025, I will pay the penalty under duress, and then make the claim against the retailer. I'm assuming
https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/help/contact-us
is the correct place to make the claim against the retailer.

 

[gray1404]

You should take out the wording say that you disagree with the PF and just say that the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

Also you do not need to send evidence of regular travel such as ticket history. Just stick to the matter at hand on the day in question.

 

[EmbedShampoos]

You should take out the wording say that you disagree with the PF and just say that the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

Also you do not need to send evidence of regular travel such as ticket history. Just stick to the matter at hand on the day in question.

Thank you. 3rd draft:

Ticket used: Off-peak ticket, return, From Burley Park to Leeds. Off-peak ticket was bought due to muscle memory and the rush of purchasing the ticket before the train arrived. Order ID: 325502.
When ticket was purchased: Approx 08:50 using TransPennine Express App
Train used: 05/09/2025 Burley Park 08:53 - Leeds 08:58

I arrived at Leeds approximately 09:00. Attempted to scan ticket, which returned a request to seek staff assistance.

Requested assistance from nearby staff, when staff noticed that the ticket I had purchased from the TPE app was an off-peak ticket. The latest TPE app has a "favorites" feature, which automatically applies my most frequent settings when purchasing a ticket for travel from Burley Park to Leeds, without showing the ticket was invalid before 10:00. I had been effectively sold a dud ticket from TPE.

According to my understanding, under National Rail Conditions of Travel Part C: 9.5.1, I am entitled to pay the difference.

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling;
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

I was subsequently provided with a Penalty Fare Notice with a charge of £104. The Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations, specifically National Rail Conditions of Travel Part C: 9.5.1. Furthermore, I did not deliberately attempt to avoid payment of the appropriate fare, and was sold an invalid ticket by the TPE app.

Upload limits mean I can't show more evidence, unfortunately.