Off Peak Return - not working the barriers

[blakey1152]

On Monday I travelled from Slade Green to Manchester on an off-peak return, due to delays on the Elizabeth Line I opted to stay on a Southeastern service to London Bridge and change there for the Northern Line to Euston.

Unfortunately, as I had opted to get an earlier train I had arrived at London Bridge just after 9am and the barriers were closed and as I had sort of expected my ticket came up seek assistance
Followed up with a "chat" with one of the staff manning the gates who told me that off peak tickets aren't valid until 9.30am which I said that the time has nothing to do with the validity of the ticket and he called someone else over who said I was wrong and that off-peak tickets aren't valid until 9.30am again, I then referred them the the website that showed the restrictions for code 9I and they eventually decided that "they'll let me through this time", but I'll need to buy another ticket next time!

A quick walk down to the Northern Line and my ticket again would not work the barriers and came up seek assistance, I was told at the barrier that the ticket needs to have a cross symbol on it next to the destination station to enable travel between National Rail stations on the tube network - my ticket did have a symbol on it but it wasn't much of a cross and it wasn't next to the destination station of Manchester Stations.
Already running late by now, I didn't have time for another chat about ticket validity knowing full well that if I was let through that the ticket would also fail at Euston so I ended up using my Contactless card to travel between London Bridge and London Euston.

The itinerary given to me was to use the Elizabeth Line but the ticket states Valid via any permitted route - so I assumed that travelling via London Bridge and the tube was a perfectly acceptable route (as it was before the Elizabeth Line opened!)

Can I claim back the tube fare and if so do I claim it back from TfL or Avanti who sold me the ticket in the first place?

 

[jfollows]

A Slade Green to Manchester off-peak return (see https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SGR&dest=MAN&expert=on&flow=0&multi=0&fare=5&ldn=1&tkt=SVR) is valid both at London Bridge when you were there (the only restriction that's probably relevant is that you can't catch a train timed to depart London Euston before 09:26) and is routed "+Any Permitted" where "+" is the Maltese Cross denoting cross-London tube travel is included in the fare.

Unfortunately yet another example of poor staff training meaning that they make up the rules and then tell you that they'll "let you off this time" as if they're doing you a favour whereas they're simply not doing their jobs properly. I think they set up the barriers to reject all off-peak tickets, but then convince themselves by some flawed logic that because the barrier then rejects the ticket it's because the ticket is invalid and not because they don't know the rules properly.

PS A Slade Green to Manchester "any permitted" ticket is valid via LONDON in the routeing guide, meaning that any valid Slade Green to London route followed by any valid London to Manchester route can be taken. Clearly the route you took is one of these. The route to London is shown on maps CT or NK+VL at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps (basically the obvious terminus stations), as well as the shortest route if that's not shown on the maps.

You should definitely also complain to the people responsible for London Bridge station about their staff because this is not the first time someone has posted here on the issue.

 

[Watershed]

A Slade Green to Manchester off-peak return (see https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SGR&dest=MAN&expert=on&flow=0&multi=0&fare=5&ldn=1&tkt=SVR) is valid both at London Bridge when you were there (the only restriction that's probably relevant is that you can't catch a train timed to depart London Euston before 09:26) and is routed "+Any Permitted" where "+" is the Maltese Cross denoting cross-London tube travel is included in the fare.

Unfortunately yet another example of poor staff training meaning that they make up the rules and then tell you that they'll "let you off this time" as if they're doing you a favour whereas they're simply not doing their jobs properly. I think they set up the barriers to reject all off-peak tickets, but then convince themselves by some flawed logic that because the barrier then rejects the ticket it's because the ticket is invalid and not because they don't know the rules properly.

PS A Slade Green to Manchester "any permitted" ticket is valid via LONDON in the routeing guide, meaning that any valid Slade Green to London route followed by any valid London to Manchester route can be taken. Clearly the route you took is one of these. The route to London is shown on maps CT or NK+VL at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps (basically the obvious terminus stations), as well as the shortest route if that's not shown on the maps.

You should definitely also complain to the people responsible for London Bridge station about their staff because this is not the first time someone has posted here on the issue.

Agreed. Southeastern are the company whose staff man the barriers at London Bridge so the complaint about the incorrect rejection should go to them, though much like any other complaint to one of the TOCs, I'd expect to get a pathetic "ifpology" back at best.

It's worth complaining to TfL to get a refund on your contactless fare.

 

[Kilopylae]

Can I claim back the tube fare and if so do I claim it back from TfL or Avanti who sold me the ticket in the first place?

Yes, you can, and from TfL.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Unfortunately yet another example of poor staff training meaning that they make up the rules and then tell you that they'll "let you off this time" as if they're doing you a favour whereas they're simply not doing their jobs properly.

Unfortunately yet another example of someone slagging off unappreciated, under valued and overwhelmed staff taking a one sided story

When you can remember every ticket code, restriction, NRCOT word for word and stand there doing the job confidently, you’d have the right to say this

As established, at a glance, an off peak ticket would not be valid at that time of day, conversation had (1 sided story given) and you’ve established someone isn’t doing their job properly rather than clarification was needed

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately yet another example of someone slagging off unappreciated, under valued and overwhelmed staff taking a one sided story

When you can remember every ticket code, restriction, NRCOT word for word and stand there doing the job confidently, you’d have the right to say this

If you say something isn't valid, and a passenger challenges you and says it is, then you check it properly, and ideally if you're right you show the passenger the documentation confirming you are because then there can be no argument. Failure to do so is not doing your job properly and should not be defended.

But Maltese crosses are absolutely basic stuff. They never appear in the destination, they appear in the route. I would expect every member of LU gateline staff to know full well about these.

 

[jfollows]

Unfortunately yet another example of someone slagging off unappreciated, under valued and overwhelmed staff taking a one sided story

When you can remember every ticket code, restriction, NRCOT word for word and stand there doing the job confidently, you’d have the right to say this

As established, at a glance, an off peak ticket would not be valid at that time of day, conversation had (1 sided story given) and you’ve established someone isn’t doing their job properly rather than clarification was needed

Given that the original poster pointed the staff at the 9I restriction, I disagree with you, they weren't willing to consider it and maintained that his ticket was invalid in spite of this. So, no, they weren't doing their jobs properly. I don't blame them, I blame their employers.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately yet another example of someone slagging off unappreciated, under valued and overwhelmed staff taking a one sided story

When you can remember every ticket code, restriction, NRCOT word for word and stand there doing the job confidently, you’d have the right to say this

As established, at a glance, an off peak ticket would not be valid at that time of day, conversation had (1 sided story given) and you’ve established someone isn’t doing their job properly rather than clarification was needed

When I worked giving passenger information I did not know everything by heart, but I did know where to look it up.

In this case, not only is the restriction code printed on the ticket, it'll even tell you to go to www.nationalrail.co.uk/9i so there is no dispute. Anyone can access that.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn’t this type of longer distance journey what the “network rule” is all about? Been in place for decades and you’d think would be basic stuff for anyone supposedly taught about ticket restrictions in the southeast?

 

[jfollows]

When I worked giving passenger information I did not know everything by heart, but I did know where to look it up.

In this case, not only is the restriction code printed on the ticket, it'll even tell you to go to www.nationalrail.co.uk/9i so there is no dispute. Anyone can access that.

Absolutely, and there are many hard working, conscientious, diligent staff who work on our railways whom it is a pleasure to meet.
The nature of the problem is that mistakes, errors and incompetence get reported much more widely than people doing their jobs properly.
But there is clearly a subset of people who work on the railways who make up the rules and give incorrect advice to passengers. I suspect it's because they're not properly trained, but maybe they just don't care, or shouldn't be working there in the first place.
They're the minority but they give the majority a bad name. Not least because people who don't feel confident in standing their ground when they've bought a ticket which they consider to be valid are incorrectly told that it isn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t this type of longer distance journey what the “network rule” is all about? Been in place for decades and you’d think would be basic stuff for anyone supposedly taught about ticket restrictions in the southeast?

The "Network Rule" isn't formally written, you look at the restriction code to see if it applies or not. There are odd cases where it doesn't apply (though it mostly does).

 

[Haywain]

Isn’t this type of longer distance journey what the “network rule” is all about? Been in place for decades and you’d think would be basic stuff for anyone supposedly taught about ticket restrictions in the southeast?

I am afraid that the "network rule" is far from universally applied these days and does not exist in writing. Rather it relies on a reading of the restriction code.

 

[DeverseSam]

The "Network Rule" isn't formally written, you look at the restriction code to see if it applies or not. There are odd cases where it doesn't apply (though it mostly does).

Maybe one of us could write something? Like a wikipedia or facebook page?

@Haywain @Bletchleyite @swt_passenger

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe one of us could write something? Like a wikipedia or facebook page?

@Haywain @Bletchleyite @swt_passenger

I think thats not a solution to lack of training though. Many railway gateline staff just can’t or won’t accept they’re ever wrong, cross referencing wiki or FB would just wind them up further…

 

[Haywain]

Maybe one of us could write something? Like a wikipedia or facebook page?

@Haywain @Bletchleyite @swt_passenger

We could, but it wouldn't make it any more official than what we have now.

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe one of us could write something? Like a wikipedia or facebook page?

@Haywain @Bletchleyite @swt_passenger

We’ve already established that staff won’t look at an official NRE link on the public internet that’s printed on the ticket, so what would the point be?

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately yet another example of someone slagging off unappreciated, under valued and overwhelmed staff taking a one sided story

When you can remember every ticket code, restriction, NRCOT word for word and stand there doing the job confidently, you’d have the right to say this

As established, at a glance, an off peak ticket would not be valid at that time of day, conversation had (1 sided story given) and you’ve established someone isn’t doing their job properly rather than clarification was needed

What other side is there to this story - are you suggesting that the OP is lying about the staff saying they would "let you through this time"?

The mere fact that this is the first thing you respond with suggests that you're approaching this situation with the blinkered mindset that the passenger should always be assumed to be in the wrong, and that the minority of staff who give the railway a bad reputation only exist in passengers' imaginations... I'm afraid it is becoming painfully obvious why you find your job such hard work, as you described in your previous thread.

Underappreciated, undervalued and overwhelmed - these terms might be used to describe any member of rail staff at the moment. Why does that make any difference as far as the OP is concerned - should they come to expect a poor standard of customer service?

It's not about remembering everything, in any event. It's about knowing where to find the answer if you're not sure, and being prepared for your initial instinct to be wrong.

I'd expect a member of staff at a busy station such as London Bridge to be aware of the long-established principle that most long-distance Off-Peak tickets are unrestricted for the 'local' element of the journey. But even if they weren't, the restriction code is printed on the ticket, so they could have looked up the applicable restrictions in 2 seconds rather than automatically dismissing the ticket as invalid.

For them to say they will "let you through this time", as if the OP had done something wrong when they had demonstrated that their ticket was valid, is simply not on.

 

[yorkie]

When you can remember every ticket code, restriction, NRCOT word for word and stand there doing the job confidently, you’d have the right to say this

There is no need for anyone to do this.

It's trivial to look up the restrictions, but if staff don't know how or aren't given the tools to do so, the only viable option is to allow people to travel unimpeded as it's not contractually acceptable to declare valid tickets invalid.

As established, at a glance, an off peak ticket would not be valid at that time of day,

That's not at all correct.

conversation had (1 sided story given) and you’ve established someone isn’t doing their job properly rather than clarification was needed

Unless you are making a serious allegation of dishonesty, it is absolutely clear that the job was not done properly.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

That's not at all correct.

A standard off peak ticket with no codes etc would not be valid before 0930 leaving that station, therefore it is correct, at a glance a staff member so would see off peak and make an assumption it’s not correct (probably faced with many people trying to get through earlier with their off peak tickets daily) which leads to…

There is no need for anyone to do this.

It's trivial to look up the restrictions, but if staff don't know how or aren't given the tools to do so, the only viable option is to allow people to travel unimpeded as it's not contractually acceptable to declare valid tickets invalid.

You say it’s trivial yet how else would some learn them all and not then be judged as…

they're simply not doing their jobs properly.

So is it trivial as your posts suggests, is the training inadequate (as another post suggests) in which case, learning all the codes cannot be trivial, potentially lacking equipment/resources to double check but who isn’t lacking something they need on the railway…?

I don’t work gateline but will defend staff there 100%, most dedicate 110% into their role and they deal with 100s and 1000s of people every day, if anything is to blame it’s the massively over complicated ticket system and all it’s fluff. Passenger wants to go from A-B but here are 18 different ways you can do this and one of those depends on what colour socks you’re wearing (yes, I’m being facetious now)

 

[island]

A standard off peak ticket with no codes etc would not be valid before 0930 leaving that station, therefore it is correct, at a glance a staff member so would see off peak and make an assumption it’s not correct (probably faced with many people trying to get through earlier with their off peak tickets daily) which leads to…

You say it’s trivial yet how else would some learn them all and not then be judged as…

So is it trivial as your posts suggests, is the training inadequate (as another post suggests) in which case, learning all the codes cannot be trivial, potentially lacking equipment/resources to double check but who isn’t lacking something they need on the railway…?

I don’t work gateline but will defend staff there 100%, most dedicate 110% into their role and they deal with 100s and 1000s of people every day, if anything is to blame it’s the massively over complicated ticket system and all it’s fluff. Passenger wants to go from A-B but here are 18 different ways you can do this and one of those depends on what colour socks you’re wearing (yes, I’m being facetious now)

Nobody's expecting staff to learn or know everything. All we're asking is that they accept they may be wrong and look things up when needed, and give passengers the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A standard off peak ticket with no codes etc would not be valid before 0930 leaving that station, therefore it is correct, at a glance a staff member so would see off peak and make an assumption it’s not correct..

Do/does any off peak ticket(s) not have an associated restriction code, of some sort (that can be looked up)?

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I suspect that in the minds of some gateline staff, “We’ll let you through this time” is an acceptable way of hedging their bets. They believe that if the passenger is acting correctly and in good faith, they won’t really mind being told such a thing as long as they get through, whereas if they’re “trying it on” then they’ll have to worry about their little “trick” not working the next time.

I don’t agree (that it is acceptable).

 

[pedr]

Surely a ticket with no restriction codes is valid at any time, regardless of the name of the ticket?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Surely a ticket with no restriction codes is valid at any time, regardless of the name of the ticket?

Just to re-phrase my previous post, are there any Off Peak tickets with no associated restriction codes?

 

[Watershed]

A standard off peak ticket with no codes etc would not be valid before 0930 leaving that station

There is no such thing as a 'standard' Off-Peak ticket. Each ticket has a restriction code associated with it; it would be a sweeping and inaccurate generalisation to say that Off-Peak tickets can automatically be assumed not to be valid before 09:30.

therefore it is correct, at a glance a staff member so would see off peak and make an assumption it’s not correct (probably faced with many people trying to get through earlier with their off peak tickets daily) which leads to…

Even the most inexperienced member of staff would see that the ticket is to Manchester, and thus completely different to a ticket to London Terminals. It's not acceptable to justify poor customer service by reference to what other customers may or may not do.

You say it’s trivial yet how else would some learn them all and not then be judged as…
So is it trivial as your posts suggests

It's trivial to check the validity, particularly now that a link to the webpage containing the applicable restriction code text is printed on the ticket.

the training inadequate (as another post suggests) in which case

The training is inadequate because it evidently doesn't cover even the most basic principle - namely that there's no one, uniform definition of "Off-Peak", and that the restriction code should be referred to for exact details.

learning all the codes cannot be trivial,

Nobody is suggesting that any member of staff should be expected to learn all the codes. But if they encounter one they don't know (they would likely be familiar with B1/B3/C4 etc.), they should look it up rather than taking a stab in the dark.

potentially lacking equipment/resources to double check but who isn’t lacking something they need on the railway…?

Lacking a phone with an internet connection? I don't think so...

Passenger wants to go from A-B but here are 18 different ways you can do this and one of those depends on what colour socks you’re wearing (yes, I’m being facetious now)

Whilst the number of different ticket restrictions certainly doesn't help, the principle here of there being no restrictions on the NSE journey on an intercity journey is a long-standing one that has been around for decades, dating back before privatisation and the current complexity of the system.

But even though the complex system means that it's understandable staff won't know every restriction code off by heart, it can't justify the poor customer service that was experienced here.

Surely a ticket with no restriction codes is valid at any time, regardless of the name of the ticket?

That's correct. There are a small number of such fares, most of them priced by Transport for Wales.

 

[yorkie]

A standard off peak ticket with no codes etc would not be valid before 0930 leaving that station

The passenger held a standard ticket.

, therefore it is correct

Everything I - and other fares experts here - have said is correct; the staff were incorrect

, at a glance a staff member so would see off peak and make an assumption it’s not correct (probably faced with many people trying to get through earlier with their off peak tickets daily) which leads to…

They should absolutely not do that!

You say it’s trivial yet how else would some learn them all and not then be judged as.

It's trivial to look it up.

Who learns them all? By all means learn them all if you want, but you still need to double check.

So is it trivial as your posts suggests, is the training inadequate (as another post suggests) in which case, learning all the codes cannot be trivial, potentially lacking equipment/resources to double check but who isn’t lacking something they need on the railway…?

It is trivial to look it up; there is no need to memorize restrictions.

If staff lack equipment, they cannot use that as an excuse to deem a valid ticket as invalid

I don’t work gateline but will defend staff there 100%, most dedicate 110% into their role and they deal with 100s and 1000s of people every day, if anything is to blame it’s the massively over complicated ticket system and all it’s fluff. Passenger wants to go from A-B but here are 18 different ways you can do this and one of those depends on what colour socks you’re wearing

I strongly disagree

(yes, I’m being facetious now)

Then leave it to the experts, who aren't.

 

[DeverseSam]

We’ve already established that staff won’t look at an official NRE link on the public internet that’s printed on the ticket, so what would the point be?

I think printing it out a few copies of the wikipedia page and helpfully giving them out at offending gatelines might help

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2023 ==

A standard off peak ticket with no codes etc would not be valid before 0930 leaving that station, therefore it is correct, at a glance a staff member so would see off peak and make an assumption it’s not correct (probably faced with many people trying to get through earlier with their off peak tickets daily)

Isn’t there a parallel with the Sheffcaster area where the afternoon peak prohibits local Off Peak tickets but not longer distance ones?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Then leave it to the experts, who aren't.

Yes sir!

I’ll expect to see you telling everyone who makes a comment on here now who, is not a fully fledged and qualified expert the same.

Sorry you don’t find a little humour in a post amusing, of course it’s can’t be the OP who is at any fault when travelling off the itinerary they booked and of course blame the staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A standard off peak ticket with no codes etc would not be valid before 0930 leaving that station, therefore it is correct

I hope you aren't an RPI.

There is no such thing. All Off Peak tickets carry a restriction code which dictates validity. There is no default, in every case the code must be checked.

0930 is common but cannot be assumed unless you know that restriction code for certain.

 

[jfollows]

I think printing it out a few copies of the wikipedia page and helpfully giving them out at offending gatelines might help

It's a laudable idea, I admit, but most reports are that even when shown evidence of a ticket's validity the gateline staff refuse to believe it and are adamant that they know better, essentially they stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to anything.