NRCoC replaced by NRCoT from 1/10/2016

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that they think that "No limit to number of break of journeys on a valid Ticket" is a new condition not in the old NRCoC.

It isn't specifically, so I expect it was added to avoid confusion which has occurred.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That is really good. I hope that it is printed out and made available on all ticket offices. I'm sure it won't be.

It was sent with a copy of the ATOC briefing, by email. The ATOC briefing implied the only differences were changes to compensation and re-ordering of the conditions. You'll notice in the list that Condition 3 is now listed as "Condition 6.3?", indicating that even those who wrote it don't really know where Condition 3 has gone.

I'm sure every Northern ticket office and independent ticket offices have a copy of this an can quickly be printed out if needs be. We all got the E mail with that attachment. ...

The Northern offices will have got it, but how many will have read beyond what the briefing says? Not many I suspect, and because the briefing should contain all the changes (it falls a long way short of that), or at least an indication of them.

....Northern have to replace, as I'm sure all other TOC's have to, all literature with makes reference to the National Conditions Of Carriage. In terms of ourselves that a few hundred forms that now have to be thrown out this week! :roll:

Yep, virtually every Delay Repay and Customer Promise they sent me will go in the bin. Officially I have no stock of them and I should print some out from the internet if required.

Conditionous, Chapter 14 v 2. Thou shalt not need to stop at yonder boundary with thine combination of tickets.

Today. And so it begins....

A: Right. They aren't valid together. You can't do that on this train as it doesn't stop at X.

B: You know the conditions of carriage changed yesterday?

A: Yeah but that hasn't changed, I don't think.... errr

B: Think it has. Condition 14.2 removed the need to stop for all 'area' type tickets.

A: But it's only on rangers, not PTE tickets....?

At that point the argument swiftly ended for other reasons,...

Expect lots more of that.

....however I was able to ascertain after that retail bulletins had gone out - to some staff, at some depots. Nor were there proper retail briefs issued giving guards a summary of the main, relevant changes. When Newsrail Express (the ATOC printed bulletin) stopped being sent out, it seems important things become buried electronically by email.

You're lucky to get emails these days, communication is shocking, even information about the changes to ticket styles are few and far between. And when we do get emails, the lack of any really useful information makes the briefing near pointless.

Do they not email out weekly news bulletin....

Nope, barely get a briefing every month.

....or do they do that buytstaff don't bother to read them? I read all internal communication at work. That's how one knows what's going on....

They should read them, though Guards will obviously depend on Managers receiving the email and posting it on a notice board (which doesn't always happen).

We got told all the Northern customer promise booklets and how to make a complaint leaflets. Also Delay Repay Forms need throwing out we got told. The new leaflets should land today. Although we were told Saturday because Eaglescliffe is open on a Saturday but alas no delivery. :roll:

My Customer Promise leaflets should have been delivered on Saturday (office was open) still not got them. Delay Repay forms are, apparently, due this week, not holding my breath.

Do they send them by train?....

No, by Courier.

I'm sure it will be a waste of water and energy but the paper will be recycled.

Where recycling bins are provided, I'm sure staff will consider that option.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

.



You're lucky to get emails these days, communication is shocking, even information about the changes to ticket styles are few and far between. And when we do get emails, the lack of any really useful information makes the briefing near pointless.






They should read them, though Guards will obviously depend on Managers receiving the email and posting it on a notice board (which doesn't always happen).

I concur wholeheartedly with the first statement.
The dissemination of important and useful retail information at my TOC is next to non-existent. What information is circulated is normally incomplete, late, and very haphazard - some locations and colleagues will get it, others won't.

As for Guards, most of the time the information comes via email. Sometimes on a bit of paper in your pigeon hole. Sometimes just displayed on a notice. There is no real consistency. Some information now gets put onto a staff app on our phones, but this only works when connected to good 3G or 4G, and stuff on there can't be downloaded for offline viewing, so not much use if you want to refer to it enroute where the phone signal is poor - which is most places.

I have got bored of raising the issue over the years and now don't bother as most managers don't seem to either care, have the time, or it isn't their job.

 

[infobleep]

My Customer Promise leaflets should have been delivered on Saturday (office was open) still not got them. Delay Repay forms are, apparently, due this week, not holding my breath.

No, by Courier.

Where recycling bins are provided, I'm sure staff will consider that option.

Let's hope the courier hasn't been waiting around since Saturday to collect the leaflets. That would be expensive. Lol.

I'd expect all offices these days to provide recycling or ha e a very good reason they they cannot.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I concur wholeheartedly with the first statement.
The dissemination of important and useful retail information at my TOC is next to non-existent. What information is circulated is normally incomplete, late, and very haphazard - some locations and colleagues will get it, others won't.

As for Guards, most of the time the information comes via email. Sometimes on a bit of paper in your pigeon hole. Sometimes just displayed on a notice. There is no real consistency. Some information now gets put onto a staff app on our phones, but this only works when connected to good 3G or 4G, and stuff on there can't be downloaded for offline viewing, so not much use if you want to refer to it enroute where the phone signal is poor - which is most places.

I have got bored of raising the issue over the years and now don't bother as most managers don't seem to either care, have the time, or it isn't their job.

Such a shame that some companies and people can't be bothered. Might as well all give up and not bother.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Merseysider]

Well, as expected, there were issues on the 1312 Liverpool LS - Manchester Vic today, with the TPE guard claiming my father's combination of a Merseyside Concessionary Pass and a Greater Manchester Conc Wayfarer was invalid. 'We don't get any money from that'.

Twitter post to TPE

:roll:

(And yes, they are being emailed)

 

[sheff1]

Don't think this has been mentioned before, but 16.1 states:

The Conditions in this section apply to ordinary train Tickets, but may vary for individual products, especially discount and promotional Tickets. The conditions and any exclusions applying to these will be explained when you buy those Tickets.

The following paragraphs then relate to BOJ etc.

'ordinary' is not defined anywhere in the document. The second part of the sentence suggests that 'ordinary' may ("especially") mean tickets which have not been discounted in some way, but 'discount tickets' is not defined either except tangentially in that if you buy one of these things any exclusions will be explained at the time.

Logically then it must be the case that any ticket bought without an accompanying explanation of exclusions must be an 'ordinary' one and hence the conditions in 16 will apply.

It would be a lot easier for everyone if all words with specific meanings were defined in Appendix B. As it stands we can only guess or assume things which is not ideal when considering Term & Conditions.

 

[bnm]

It would be a lot easier for everyone if all words with specific meanings were defined in Appendix B. As it stands we can only guess or assume things which is not ideal when considering Term & Conditions.

No need to guess or assume. The interpretation most favourable to the consumer shall prevail.

14.2 allows the ticket/pass combination JakeF's father held to be used on a service that doesn't call at the split point. That's all that matters. Another condition that may be interpreted as preventing said use cannot trump 14.2.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Well, as expected, there were issues on the 1312 Liverpool LS - Manchester Vic today, with the TPE guard claiming my father's combination of a Merseyside Concessionary Pass and a Greater Manchester Conc Wayfarer was invalid. 'We don't get any money from that'.

Twitter post to TPE

I think the TPE Conductor would be right, though not for the reason stated...By my reckoning, the Merseyside pass is valid as far as Newton-le-Willows (NLW), but the Wayfarer is only valid from Patricroft (PAT), so such a combination would also require you to hold a ticket between NLW and PAT.

I should note, however, that this is based on public information as I'm not at work to check right now, but the maps don't show either NLW or PAT as being in both areas.

 

[sheff1]

I think the TPE Conductor would be right, though not for the reason stated...By my reckoning, the Merseyside pass is valid as far as Newton-le-Willows (NLW), but the Wayfarer is only valid from Patricroft (PAT), so such a combination would also require you to hold a ticket between NLW and PAT.

I should note, however, that this is based on public information as I'm not at work to check right now, but the maps don't show either NLW or PAT as being in both areas.

NLW is in the Wayfarer area:
http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Wayfarer-Rail-diagram.pdf

 

[Kite159]

I think the TPE Conductor would be right, though not for the reason stated...By my reckoning, the Merseyside pass is valid as far as Newton-le-Willows (NLW), but the Wayfarer is only valid from Patricroft (PAT), so such a combination would also require you to hold a ticket between NLW and PAT.

I should note, however, that this is based on public information as I'm not at work to check right now, but the maps don't show either NLW or PAT as being in both areas.

The GM Wayfarer is valid from Warrington and Earlestown so there is an overlap of validity.

The GM rail rover is only valid to Pat.

 

[bnm]

I think the TPE Conductor would be right, though not for the reason stated...By my reckoning, the Merseyside pass is valid as far as Newton-le-Willows (NLW), but the Wayfarer is only valid from Patricroft (PAT), so such a combination would also require you to hold a ticket between NLW and PAT.

I should note, however, that this is based on public information as I'm not at work to check right now, but the maps don't show either NLW or PAT as being in both areas.

The maps I'm looking at do. Both show Newton-le-Willows.

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/Site Documents/MerseyrailNetworkMap.pdf
http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Documents/PDFMaps/Wayfarer-Rail-diagram.pdf

 

[Merseysider]

I think the TPE Conductor would be right, though not for the reason stated...By my reckoning, the Merseyside pass is valid as far as Newton-le-Willows (NLW), but the Wayfarer is only valid from Patricroft (PAT), so such a combination would also require you to hold a ticket between NLW and PAT.

I should note, however, that this is based on public information as I'm not at work to check right now, but the maps don't show either NLW or PAT as being in both areas.

I'm afraid that's incorrect; you must be looking at the wrong map. The GM Wayfarer includes ERL/NLW and is a different product to the Rail Ranger.

 

[LowLevel]

Much the same as on the Cheshire Lines GM passes only go to Glazebrook but the Wayfarer is valid to Warrington.

I'm glad this change has come in to be honest as I was getting fed up with Merseyrail booking clerks trying to be helpful by selling passengers tickets split at Hough Green or Glazebrook and thus technically restricting them to the local services.

Still banging my head against a wall trying to educate them that their clever money saving split at Newton le Willows doesn't entitle them to sail along flashing their passes on CLC services that go nowhere near it though.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Well, as expected, there were issues on the 1312 Liverpool LS - Manchester Vic today, with the TPE guard claiming my father's combination of a Merseyside Concessionary Pass and a Greater Manchester Conc Wayfarer was invalid. 'We don't get any money from that'.

Twitter post to TPE

:roll:

(And yes, they are being emailed)

Probably because the guard wouldn't have been aware that anything had changed.

 

[Merseysider]

Probably because the guard wouldn't have been aware that anything had changed.

Yes, that's probably the case. Unfortunate really.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm afraid that's incorrect; you must be looking at the wrong map. The GM Wayfarer includes ERL/NLW and is a different product to the Rail Ranger.

I stand corrected. I was just looking at the normal TfGM Rail Network Map, which seemed perfectly logical at the time. (Yes, I know logic and the rail industry tend not to go together half the time, but still...)

 

[Loop & Link]

Much the same as on the Cheshire Lines GM passes only go to Glazebrook but the Wayfarer is valid to Warrington.

I'm glad this change has come in to be honest as I was getting fed up with Merseyrail booking clerks trying to be helpful by selling passengers tickets split at Hough Green or Glazebrook and thus technically restricting them to the local services.

Still banging my head against a wall trying to educate them that their clever money saving split at Newton le Willows doesn't entitle them to sail along flashing their passes on CLC services that go nowhere near it though.

When I do that split, I've give them a journey print of what services they can and can't use, so there's no confusion. Some though have just preferred to get there as quick as possible on that xx:12 so it's a full price ticket (not an issue anymore though)

Also it's pointless going via CLC doing the ticket from Hough Green as it's the same price from Hough Green to Manchester as it is from Liverpool Stns so I've always offered the route via the Chat Moss.

We are just trying to be helpful and save them a bit of money!!

Obviously makes life easier now with the new NRCoT

 

[LowLevel]

I know you are and it speaks well of the staff that they are willing to do little things to help their customers. My gripe was simply that people were being sold the splits without being told the restrictions which made it a bit difficult for those of us on board. Hallelujah though - the new terms make it no longer an issue.

 

[Loop & Link]

I know you are and it speaks well of the staff that they are willing to do little things to help their customers. My gripe was simply that people were being sold the splits without being told the restrictions which made it a bit difficult for those of us on board. Hallelujah though - the new terms make it no longer an issue.

No problem

Just making sure we aren't all tarred with the brush

That's it I always say you need to be on a train that stops at NLW so I say you can only get the xx:16/xx:20 for example. If you tell them that there's no chance of it going wrong for anyone! Another one we used to get a lot was Garswood-Blackpool North, (not so much now there are no through trains) I had to point out to someone that none of the Blackpool's stopped at Garswood so it wasn't possible.

 

[rs101]

Just wondering how long TOCs have to replace their ticket stock? I purchased tickets on Monday which state on the back that they're issued subject to NRCoC.. This was from Manningtree station....

 

[causton]

Just wondering how long TOCs have to replace their ticket stock? I purchased tickets on Monday which state on the back that they're issued subject to NRCoC.. This was from Manningtree station....

Probably a long time. It's not been long since we got the last batch of new stock in (ATOCAD01) which has adverts for railcards, NRE, etc on the back, and still says NRCoC...

 

[bnm]

Just wondering how long TOCs have to replace their ticket stock? I purchased tickets on Monday which state on the back that they're issued subject to NRCoC.. This was from Manningtree station....

I doubt they'll be replaced. Just used up.

Follow the advice on the rear and you'll get the new conditions, either at a station or by going to nationalrail.co.uk.

No need to throw away perfectly good ticket stock.

 

[jon0844]

If they're going to replace ticket stock, will the orange bands be reduced in size a bit to better fit the new ticket design?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There is actually no need to replace any literature or tickets unless it presents facts which are wrong. The new NRCoT says:

This document replaces the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Any reference to the
National Rail Conditions of Carriage on websites, Tickets, publications etc. refers to the terms and conditions set out in this document. These Conditions apply in addition to your statutory rights.

 

[furlong]

There is actually no need to replace any literature or tickets unless it presents facts which are wrong. The new NRCoT says:

That won't wash where you are still presented with the contents of the old NRCoC when you ask (e.g. follow the link on the website when making the purchase) and the new document leaves you in a worse position than the old.

 

[najaB]

That won't wash where you are still presented with the contents of the old NRCoC when you ask (e.g. follow the link on the website when making the purchase) and the new document leaves you in a worse position than the old.

Ooh, ooh, can I say it before Yorkie does? Where there is a conflict between conditions the one that is more favourable to the customer must be used.

 

[rs101]

That won't wash where you are still presented with the contents of the old NRCoC when you ask (e.g. follow the link on the website when making the purchase) and the new document leaves you in a worse position than the old.

So why isn't there information displayed at the station to say that all tickets are sold subject to the NRCoT since 1st October? Would it not be common sense to put a poster up or a sticker on the ticket office window and machines?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ooh, ooh, can I say it before Yorkie does? Where there is a conflict between conditions the one that is more favourable to the customer must be used.

So that could well be a term from the NRCoC if that's favourable... Especially when there's no information at point of sale that the stated terms don't apply.

 

[sheff1]

That won't wash where you are still presented with the contents of the old NRCoC when you ask (e.g. follow the link on the website when making the purchase) and the new document leaves you in a worse position than the old.

All the websites I have used to book tickets since 1 Oct have linked through to the new NRCoT.

 

[Deerfold]

All the websites I have used to book tickets since 1 Oct have linked through to the new NRCoT.

And then when you get your tickets via TOD they say they're valid as per the NRCoC. If I Google NRCoC, I get the conditions valid from July 2015 on the National Rail site as my first result with nothing to say they're no longer in use.

 

[Merseysider]

I'm surprised an addendum hasn't been added to the previous Conditions with reference to the new Conditions.