NR plans to axe 800 signalboxes

[USP45]

Okay,newbie poster so please be nice.

Current grade 3 signaller in my late 30's so it's pretty depressing to think that one day in the next few years i'm likely to be out of a job. But it's hardly a big surprise what has been announced, it's pretty much what the McNulty report said.

What is upsetting is that people think the likes of me will be able to retire on a full pension at the age of 55 .Not a chance in hell , no matter how long I stay a signaller .

That the "The Sun" thinks we are all lazy work shy layabouts, who are leeching off the taxpayer is what really gets me down . I was hired by Network Rail to do a job and I have been doing that job to my upmost best. It's not my fault there are still old Mechanical boxes around , and that people are still needed to work them.
The comment if "if this bunch dare strike , sack the lot and get the unemployed to do their jobs" really does grate.

Yes Network Rail should try to phase out the old boxes, and replace them with modern signalling systems. but people are going to be required to work the new systems and i'm sure NR will want to hold on to as many trained signallers as possible. more signallers working shorter hours for less pay must have benefits for all parties.

Good quote in The Times from a Network Rail spokesperson was "The signallers who are in 40's and 50's are not going to end up out on their ear" .

guess i'm too young to be in that group :cry::cry:

 

[Metroland]

I would guess most of the redundancies could be accommodated at future larger centres and natural wastage would tend to account of many of of redundancies with a 20 year project.

The key would be to get promotion to an area that is likely to have a large centre, the following have been identified as locations:

Didcot, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Romford, Three Bridges, Ashford, Gillingham, Basingstoke, York, Manchester, Rugby, Derby, Birmingham, Cardiff, etc

Keep checking http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5867.aspx for contract awards and proposed schemes. RUS documents also contain some detail, this is assuming you are not told/hear it on the rumour mill in any case.

The other option is to transfer into another grade on NR or the TOCs that is not affected.
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NETWORK RAIL has unveiled plans to close nearly all the 800 signalling centres, panels and boxes which presently control the National Rail network, replacing them with 14 Rail Operating Centres and reducing the signalling workforce by two-thirds, to 2,000.

The changeover will take more than two decades to complete and cost some £1.1 billion.

However, it is expected that the annual savings will amount to at least £200 million by 2030, when 80 per cent of the project should be complete, and £250 million by the 2040s.

Some ROCs will control an entire Network Rail route so that, for example, Didcot ROC will regulate the entire Great Western network in England, from Penzance to Bristol and Paddington, and as far north as the outskirts of Birmingham, where Saltley ROC would take over.

The West Coast Main Line will be run by just four ROCs -- Glasgow (Cowlairs), Manchester, Saltley and Rugby, while East Anglia will be controlled from a new ROC at Romford. The largest ROC will be at York, which will cover north east England from The Wash to the Scottish borders, and also all the East Coast Main Line in England.

Wales will be run by a single ROC at Cardiff, and Scotland by two -- at Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Network Rail says train regulation will become more efficient, thanks to new traffic management and control systems which will improve capacity.

The changes will also be compatible with the spread of ERTMS, because the equipment in the new ROCs will be 'agnostic' about the signalling systems to which they are connected, and in the case of ERTMS will link directly with its layer of train control functions.

But it will be the end of the line for the remaining mechanical boxes and their associated semaphore signals, which will be replaced by modular signals.

The rail unions were briefed about the project earlier this week, and the RMT said it would not accept any compulsory redundancies. A spokesman added: "We expect Network Rail to abide by the current Promotion Transfer and Redundancy Arrangements and in addition we will be seeking a shorter working week, increased annual leave and voluntary retirement at 55."

Network Rail said its discussions with the unions would continue, but that it aimed to avoid any compulsory job losses.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/07/21-4000-jobs-to-go-in.html

 

[Class172]

I was just looking through the West Midlands and Chiltern RUS for May 2011 and it says this:

Worcester area signalling life extension -
There are plans for renewing the signalling
equipment in the Worcester Area (Worcester Tunnel
Jn, Worcester Shrub Hill and Henwick signal boxes)
and at Droitwich Spa signal box. These plans include
life extension of the assets only

Does this mean now that they won't be fully resignalled and the semaphores will stay for now? When is this supposed to happen? I thought the original plan was that they would be going to the WM signalling centre.:neutral:

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Good quote in The Times from a Network Rail spokesperson was "The signallers who are in 40's and 50's are not going to end up out on their ear" .

guess i'm too young to be in that group :cry::cry:

I wouldn't say so... especially if you are prepared to move. I'd even go as far as to say that no signaller currently employed who wants to stay in the industry will lose their job with this new report. The only caveat I would add is that for this to apply, they will have to be flexible, either taking on a longer commute, or moving house.

I'm not sure I would be recommending people join the industry in their 20s now if they expected a job for a life, but those of us already there have little to fear UNLESS you're not prepared for the possibilty of moving, if it was to come to that. There are so many people approaching retirement age who will be seduced by the attractive redundancy packages on offer (in all likelyhood, if Network Rail had any sense) that enough vacancies will be created. In makes sense for NR to (legally) encourage the older generation depart as there is no point appointing a job to a 60 year old who might stay 2 or 3 years over a 30 year old who is fully trained with another 30 years of service left.

 

[The Planner]

Does this mean now that they won't be fully resignalled and the semaphores will stay for now? When is this supposed to happen? I thought the original plan was that they would be going to the WM signalling centre.:neutral:

From what I can establish and have seen from the announcement, I wouldn't bet on earlier than 2020-21 now.

 

[Class172]

From what I can establish and have seen from the announcement, I wouldn't bet on earlier than 2020-21 now.

It's getting later and later... :roll: - I do like semaphores though so I can't moan too much!

 

[Rugd1022]

After running round my train in Worcester Yard today I took a stroll round, photographing all the semaphores.... just in case!

I know some folk hate working under mechanical boxes and aren't keen on Worcester in particular - I love it

 

[Class172]

After running round my train in Worcester Yard today I took a stroll round, photographing all the semaphores.... just in case!

I know some folk hate working under mechanical boxes and aren't keen on Worcester in particular - I love it

I love the Worcester area too! There's an impressive array of GWR semaphores. Droitwich Spa has a nice selection to and it us relatively easy to see most of them by foot.

 

[Rugd1022]

I love the Worcester area too! There's an impressive array of GWR semaphores. Droitwich Spa has a nice selection to and it us relatively easy to see most of them by foot.

Droitwich has one of the few semaphore distant arms left on ex-Western Region metals too, on the up road approaching from Hartlebury.... always get a warm glow when I see it showing green, heading home on 6F43 from Brierley Hill. Will post some photos in the next few days when I get a chance.... off to Crewe shortly to fetch a loco for the Bletchley Drain Train, then down to Cheltenham tomorrow for a ballast

 

[Harbon 1]

I can't see the point of re-signalling the rural routes though. Its just not worth it.

For example, the Derby-Crewe line is almost entirely semaphores, but the mechanical boxes are only handling 2 regular trains an hour. With it apparently costing £1m a mile, its just not worth the hassle on the rural routes.

 

[The Planner]

Gets rid of four boxes with absolute block working, and it would only be replaced with 2 aspect modular signalling anyway I would suspect.

 

[Metroland]

I can't see the point of re-signalling the rural routes though. Its just not worth it.

For example, the Derby-Crewe line is almost entirely semaphores, but the mechanical boxes are only handling 2 regular trains an hour. With it apparently costing £1m a mile, its just not worth the hassle on the rural routes.

I disagree, it would save a lot of money in operating costs (staff, provision of facilities, inspections) would allow many routes to become open for longer than they are now, or act as diversion routes (EG joint line between Peterborough and Doncaster) and much of the older equipment is life expired in any case. There are also a lot less people around these days to maintain antique semaphore signalling.

 

[Jonny]

A few people appear to be getting the words manual and mechanical mixed up.There are a lot of boxes that are manual boxes yet have colour light signals.The fact is its a case of, if its economic to get rid of a box, thats what happens,but a mechanical or manual operation doesn't necessarily equate with inefficiency.It could cost hundreds of thousands to replace a box manned by grade 2 or 3 Signalmen,it would be cheaper with axle counters,but then if that box has points,level crossings etc it becomes more complicated and people would still have to be employed at the power box,even though less in number,they will be higher in grade,and if there isn't going to be an increase in traffic the gains would be negligable,which probably explains why you still have mechanical boxes continuing whilst PSB's from the 1960's are being replaced by their trackerball successors.....

At least at a combined power box, signallers can talk to each other and plan ahead accordingly.
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I disagree, it would save a lot of money in operating costs (staff, provision of facilities, inspections) would allow many routes to become open for longer than they are now, or act as diversion routes (EG joint line between Peterborough and Doncaster) and much of the older equipment is life expired in any case. There are also a lot less people around these days to maintain antique semaphore signalling.

That's another issue, and besides who fancies being stuck on their own in the middle of nowhere for hours at a time?
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Gets rid of four boxes with absolute block working, and it would only be replaced with 2 aspect modular signalling anyway I would suspect.

Possibly, but with some of the new modules it is likely that they will have a "yellow" function that can be activated later if need be; that activation itself could improve capacity. Often, two-aspect is enough if the headway needed is fairly long.

 

[33056]

That's another issue, and besides who fancies being stuck on their own in the middle of nowhere for hours at a time?

You might be surprised at the number of signallers who actually prefer it that way hock:

 

[LE Greys]

You might be surprised at the number of signallers who actually prefer it that way hock:

I wouldn't mind in the least. If I was a signalman, my ideal box would be Blea Moor.

 

[TDK]

Droitwich has one of the few semaphore distant arms left on ex-Western Region metals too, on the up road approaching from Hartlebury.... always get a warm glow when I see it showing green, heading home on 6F43 from Brierley Hill. Will post some photos in the next few days when I get a chance.... off to Crewe shortly to fetch a loco for the Bletchley Drain Train, then down to Cheltenham tomorrow for a ballast

Prees has a semaphore distant signal in the up & down directions and there are quite a few at Shrewsbury

 

[Toots]

That's another issue, and besides who fancies being stuck on their own in the middle of nowhere for hours at a time?

Me....

 

[Metroland]

One of the principal reasons in BR days (apart from saving money) in abolishing mechanical signalboxes was it was very difficult, in some cases, to find suitable people to man these posts. Cumbria was one of the worst locations, with a sparse population, poor roads, and difficult access to some places, where there was no piped water or sewage and the only way to get there was walk!

Looks like the following ROCs will control the following areas:

Didcot: (Thames Valley signalling centre) The entire English western region from Paddington as far as Heyford, Bromsgrove, Worcester area and near Basingstoke and Penzance.

Basingstoke: the entire south west portion of the old Southern Region from Waterloo to near Exeter and Weymouth and Portsmouth.

Gillingham: the SE lines out of London, Charing Cross and London Bridge to Kent coast

Ashford: Channel tunnel lines and connections

Three Bridges: The central part of the Southern from Victoria to Brighton, Arun Valley line, and connections

York: The entire old Eastern region apart from East Anglia and all of the English ECML

Romford: Lines out of Liverpool Street and East Anglia

East Midlands CC (Derby). MML to near Sheffield, bounded by Newark, Allington, Stamford, near Nuneaton, Tamworth, near Stoke and south of Worksop on the Robin Hood line

West Midlands CC (Saltley). West Midlands bounded by: Heyford, lines into Marylebone, West of Worcester, Evesham, East of Shrewsbury, South of Stafford, Tamworth.

Rugby: English WCML and connections, excluding some urban areas

Manchester: NW area , as far east Huddersfield, South to Colwich, West to Chester and Crewe.

Cardiff: All Wales lines plus parts of Marches line and toward Crewe.

Edinburgh: ECML Scots border, East Scotland.

Glasgow: WCML Scots border, West Scotland.

 

[Class172]

Didcot: (Thames Valley signalling centre) The entire English western region from Paddington as far as Heyford, Bromsgrove and near Basingstoke.

...

West Midlands CC (Saltley). West Midlands bounded by: Heyford, lines into Marylebone, West of Worcester, East of Shrewsbury, South of Stafford, Tamworth.

That seems odd, you say upto Bromsgrove, that would mean that there would be a gap in the WMCC between Droitwich and Barnt Green. Or is Worcester going to WMCC?

It seems strange that Bromsgrove is going to the 'GWR' CC and Worcester isn't - not very convenient for running trains, having it disappear of the panel for 10 mins only then to reappear. :neutral:

 

[Metroland]

Worcester will be on West Midland SC, Didcot will probably take over the old Gloucester PSB area as far as just north of Bromsgrove, with WMSC and Didcot fringing at Norton junction - thought it might be further along the Cotswold line. I assume the Oxford area workstation at Didcot will take on the current PSB area and a good proportion of the Cotswold line (eventually).

At least that looks to be the plan at present.

 

[Class172]

Worcester will be on West Midland SC, Didcot will probably take over the old Gloucester PSB area as far as just north of Bromsgrove, with WM and Didcot fringing at Norton junction. At least that looks to be the plan at present.

It still seems odd though that a BHM-HFD train will go WMCC - Didcot - WMCC. What I'd do is just put Bromsgrove in the WMCC and that gets rid of any awkwardness.

 

[Metroland]

They may well do (especially as Bromsgrove is being electrified) it's not really that clear from P7 of the RUS scoping doc


http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ope/west midlands and chilterns rus scope.pdf

 

[Class172]

They may well do (especially as Bromsgrove is being electrified) it's not really that clear from P7 of the RUS scoping doc


http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ope/west midlands and chilterns rus scope.pdf

It will probably get resignalled in the process.

 

[Bonzodog]

Although I understand the need for rationalisation, I wonder what NR will do with the old boxes themselves? I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't a rush to list a number of the picturesque buildings. Shrewsbury, for example, is already listed.

 

[The Planner]

They'll get knocked down as they are a risk. Shirley, Henley in Arden and Bearley were ripped apart pretty quick despite efforts to save them.

 

[Class172]

They'll get knocked down as they are a risk. Shirley, Henley in Arden and Bearley were ripped apart pretty quick despite efforts to save them.

A risk to what? Surely the brick/concrete built ones aren't going to collapse on their own.

 

[The Planner]

Vandalism.

 

[Bonzodog]

A risk to what? Surely the brick/concrete built ones aren't going to collapse on their own.

And they can't knock down Shrewsbury ....

 

[142094]

They'll get knocked down as they are a risk. Shirley, Henley in Arden and Bearley were ripped apart pretty quick despite efforts to save them.

Same happened on the Durham Coast line - matter of days to get rid of most of them. Stopped a repeat of what happened at Cemetery Junction north of Hartlepool which was a constant target for vandals and arsonists.

 

[Class172]

Vandalism.

Yes, but some boxes are hardly accessible, Droitwich Spa, for example is surrounded by railway on two sides; then after that there are high spiked metal fences leading to a Chemical plant on one side and fences and a steep embankment with trees on the other. Then a 20m embankment down to a canal covers the third side. Also Worcester Tunnel Jct isn't easy to get to.