NR plans to axe 800 signalboxes

[Metroland]

In the latest issue of Rail:

NR is preparing plans to axe 800 current signalboxes, and replace them with ~15 control centres. It was currently keeping the plans under wraps as job losses would be involved and there are 'Trade Union considerations'.

On average a signal box has a wage bill of £300,000 with some only controlling a couple of signals and/or a level crossing.

It is thought that once centre could open each year for 15 years: Derby (EMCC), Gillingham, Cardiff, Saltley (WMCC), Edinburgh, Ashford, Didcot, Glasgow, Romford, Three Bridges, York, Manchester, Rugby, Basingstoke have already been identified as locations.

6 suppliers are bidding for the work, with some lines converted to modular signalling with lightweight signals or ERTMS.

 

[jopsuk]

Surely the unions are well aware that this is an aspiration; that mechanical lever frames belong to the 1800s?

 

[LE Greys]

Frankly, it's about time. Mechanical signalling may look pretty, but it was an anachronism under British Rail and certainly is today. No place on the modern railway for it.

 

[trainfanatic]

NR can make a start on the Joint line P'boro to Donnie next Monday if they want...sooner the better!

 

[swt_passenger]

It was hardly under wraps really - that list comes from the Mc Nulty report - but the regional ASC policy has been around for years, and is actually regularly mentioned in other documents in passing. I just can't believe that signallers don't realise what's going to happen in the long term. I guess they'd be hoping change would be more gradual - and of course they're still recruiting.

As an example, the NR statements accompanying the planning application for the new Three Bridges 'operations centre' to be built next to the new Thameslink depot refers to very large numbers of employees with over a hundred present in each overnight shift. They also discuss how the place could have been built nearly anywhere in East or West Sussex, or in Kent, but Three Bridges was preferred.

Basingstoke is already starting to spread its area wide, with the current changes to the West of England route bringing in Salisbury to Exmouth Jn, and people reckon Wool to Poole is next up.

 

[yorksrob]

It's the continuation of a process that has been going on since time immemorial. Will this mark a speeding up of the process and will there be the initial money available to get it done before any savings come through?

 

[Old Timer]

Yet more Network Rail hype and spin by non-Railwaymen.

I doubt there is the design capabaility let alone the installation skills available to undertake the work, following Network Rail's previous policy of killing the market.

The above does not even factor in any of the other major schemes they are proposing to implement, and for which they have no Contractors staff available - the really good ones having gone abroad to places like Australia and the Far East/Middle East.

 

[Ferret]

Yet more Network Rail hype and spin by non-Railwaymen.

I doubt there is the design capabaility let alone the installation skills available to undertake the work, following Network Rail's previous policy of killing the market.

The above does not even factor in any of the other major schemes they are proposing to implement, and for which they have no Contractors staff available - the really good ones having gone abroad to places like Australia and the Far East/Middle East.

It does strike me as very aspirational - ok, the WCML signalling now gives an idea of what is possible but doing all that nationwide - must be 20 years work there, at a minimum?

 

[MrC]

Basingstoke is already starting to spread its area wide, with the current changes to the West of England route bringing in Salisbury to Exmouth Jn, and people reckon Wool to Poole is next up.

Well beyond the 'people reckon' stage according to Invensys.

 

[ukrob]

Yet more Network Rail hype and spin by non-Railwaymen.

I doubt there is the design capabaility let alone the installation skills available to undertake the work, following Network Rail's previous policy of killing the market.

The above does not even factor in any of the other major schemes they are proposing to implement, and for which they have no Contractors staff available - the really good ones having gone abroad to places like Australia and the Far East/Middle East.

Same old same old.

Do you have anything positive to say about Network Rail, or is it just a massive axe you have to grind - and do so in every single thread about NR?

 

[WatcherZero]

Theyve been closing and merging what something like 6 a year already during normal renewals and optimisations? The process was never in doubt.

 

[Old Timer]

Same old same old.

Do you have anything positive to say about Network Rail, or is it just a massive axe you have to grind - and do so in every single thread about NR?

Why not try doing the investment maths for a start, then when you have done that work out where the men will come from ?

Then when you have done that look back at the posts by Network Rail staff who support the observations I make time and time again.

Just to give you a starter, a recent dewirement required Balfour Beatty to fly staff in from Europe to support Network Rail.

Positive comments are made, indeed were made recently, were I feel they are deserved, though clearly you dont know where they are - which clearly undermines your accusation.

As someone who has worked with and within Network Rail, and indeed with Railtrack before that, and someone with senior links inside, I rather think I am more competent to comment on the internal workings of Network Rail Infrastructurethan those outside the Industry who have no real knowledge, dont you ?

Remember I was pointing out what was going on at a senior level long before you read about it in the newspapers. I also, for the record, was proved right in what I forecast would happen at a senior level within Network Rail after the Conservatives gained power.

I also forecast the continuing reductions in track quality, as any Driver on here will testify to.

If you want to believe the Network Rail hype and spin then do so by all means, but taking off the rose tinted spectacles sometimes does help you know.

 

[ukrob]

Why not try doing the investment maths for a start, then when you have done that work out where the men will come from ?

Then when you have done that look back at the posts by Network Rail staff who support the observations I make time and time again.

Just to give you a starter, a recent dewirement required Balfour Beatty to fly staff in from Europe to support Network Rail.

Positive comments are made, indeed were made recently, were I feel they are deserved, though clearly you dont know where they are - which clearly undermines your accusation.

As someone who has worked with and within Network Rail, and indeed with Railtrack before that, and someone with senior links inside, I rather think I am more competent to comment on the internal workings of Network Rail Infrastructurethan those outside the Industry who have no real knowledge, dont you ?

Remember I was pointing out what was going on at a senior level long before you read about it in the newspapers. I also, for the record, was proved right in what I forecast would happen at a senior level within Network Rail after the Conservatives gained power.

I also forecast the continuing reductions in track quality, as any Driver on here will testify to.

If you want to believe the Network Rail hype and spin then do so by all means, but taking off the rose tinted spectacles sometimes does help you know.

Avoiding the question and making assumptions about who other people are and what they do doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. But I apologise for missing your praise of NR. I must have missed that.

 

[Old Timer]

Avoiding the question and making assumptions about who other people are and what they do doesn't wash with me I'm afraid. But I apologise for missing your praise of NR. I must have missed that.

I have fully answered your question, you simply choose to ignore the answer because it does not suit.

 

[Aictos]

So signal boxes on the Fen line could close then, ie Kings Lynn, Magdalen Road/Watlington, Downham Market and Littleport with their areas coming under a panel in a extended Cambridge PSB signalbox?

As well as the line to Ipswich and Norwich as well?

 

[Old Timer]

So signal boxes on the Fen line could close then, ie Kings Lynn, Magdalen Road/Watlington, Downham Market and Littleport with their areas coming under a panel in a extended Cambridge PSB signalbox?

As well as the line to Ipswich and Norwich as well?

All things are possible.

As matters currently stand there would (probably) be a need to run a 650v lineside supply out (not up todate with present arrangements) which of course is the stuff currently being stolen.

Interlockings would need to be developed, although I am told that SSI is falling out of favour because of the cost of data changes when alterations are made - Moggie will answer that one however.

There is also the issue then of whether there is room in the operating floor of existing PSBs and the workload of the additional sections.

For example I suspect the Kings Lynn branch would bring about too small increase in work to justify one signalman, but maybe too much for the existing staffing, add the Norwich line on and you may justify a separate panel or work station.

There have been plans to run the whole network from a few large signalling centres since BR days but the appetite for that dies after the signalling strikes under Railtrack when the strikes involving just 4 panels at Doncaster shut down large swathes of the Eastern.

Taking a different viewpoint, large signalling centres are OK until things go wrong in a big way and could result in huge disruption over extensive areas. A loss of power to one, or an incident involving one would have huge implications.

This then brings round the question of redundancy, i.e the ability to control the railway from elsewhere, local panels for example.

This approach was adopted by the Eastern for Kings Cross PSB which has satellite panels in the relay rooms at Potters Bar, Hatfield, and Hitchin.

The LM went down a different route with the ability to handover control to the local relay rooms, which would then set up routes in Normal and work on automatic with straight routes.

So yes all things are possible but will require a degree of infrastructure work as well as signalling design, and currently signalling design is I am told still difficult and likely to become moreso with CrossRail and other schemes coming online.

The current phase of platform extensions is taking up signalling design time as well.

The ability to go abroad is becoming less of an answer as around the world investment is going into Railways, especially Australia and the Middle East (Far East as well again shortly), and taking up what was spare capacity there.

 

[swt_passenger]

So signal boxes on the Fen line could close then, ie Kings Lynn, Magdalen Road/Watlington, Downham Market and Littleport with their areas coming under a panel in a extended Cambridge PSB signalbox?

As well as the line to Ipswich and Norwich as well?

Cambridge isn't listed, it could be Romford or York, dependng on whether Cambridge is considered ECML or Anglia route. If so they are talking about pretty massive areas. You'll notice the key Southern signalling centres such as Wimbledon and Victoria aren't mentioned - that's because for example they expect Basingstoke to be dealing with the entire Wessex Route

I do appreciate Old Timer's point about the lack of the people and cash needed to do any of this though.

 

[Old Timer]

I do appreciate Old Timer's point about the lack of the people and cash needed to do any of this though.

Thank you for that.

I know for a fact that this is a huge problem for all the major Infrastructure Contractors, who are having real probelms in not only managing their existing workloads, but even to simply tender the work starting to come out.

All the Contractors went through a massive reduction in staff some only as recently as last year because they could no longer afford to keep them on because Network Rail was not tendering or promising any work. The staff left with large-ish redundancy packages. Those staff have now gone to other jobs mostly outside of the UK, or have decided to retire and will not come back, with the loss of a huge amount of experience.

Other Companies simply switched to looking at work outside the UK, for example Balfour just moved scores of people out to Australia.

Many of the lower graded staff have found employment in other Industries and become used to a smaller wage, but with the benefit of not having to work weekends and this will hold back people with small families I know.

Senior staff and the sort of quality staff who can handle tenders are not available anymore so some of the Contractors are now struggling to respond and some are declining to tender because of this.

Very large sums of money are now being put on the table to tempt back into the UK those who have gone abroad, and all this will do is to develop a wage inflation way and beyond what was "saved" by stupid attempts to bring down the Contractors.

These higher costs will simply inflate the costs of work - as I forcast would happen about 3 years ago :roll:

 

[jopsuk]

Taking a different viewpoint, large signalling centres are OK until things go wrong in a big way and could result in huge disruption over extensive areas. A loss of power to one, or an incident involving one would have huge implications.

Wasn't there a major incident with one of the Dutch control centres last year- major fire or some such?

 

[ainsworth74]

Wasn't there a major incident with one of the Dutch control centres last year- major fire or some such?

There was, it shut down something like a third of the network but as I recall they were able to recover to running a reduced service very quickly (I hesitate to say within hours but certainly by the next day) and whilst I'm not sure how long it took to get back to a full service it again wasn't a very long time.

 

[Aictos]

All things are possible.

As matters currently stand there would (probably) be a need to run a 650v lineside supply out (not up todate with present arrangements) which of course is the stuff currently being stolen.

Interlockings would need to be developed, although I am told that SSI is falling out of favour because of the cost of data changes when alterations are made - Moggie will answer that one however.

There is also the issue then of whether there is room in the operating floor of existing PSBs and the workload of the additional sections.

For example I suspect the Kings Lynn branch would bring about too small increase in work to justify one signalman, but maybe too much for the existing staffing, add the Norwich line on and you may justify a separate panel or work station.

There have been plans to run the whole network from a few large signalling centres since BR days but the appetite for that dies after the signalling strikes under Railtrack when the strikes involving just 4 panels at Doncaster shut down large swathes of the Eastern.

Taking a different viewpoint, large signalling centres are OK until things go wrong in a big way and could result in huge disruption over extensive areas. A loss of power to one, or an incident involving one would have huge implications.

This then brings round the question of redundancy, i.e the ability to control the railway from elsewhere, local panels for example.

This approach was adopted by the Eastern for Kings Cross PSB which has satellite panels in the relay rooms at Potters Bar, Hatfield, and Hitchin.

The LM went down a different route with the ability to handover control to the local relay rooms, which would then set up routes in Normal and work on automatic with straight routes.

So yes all things are possible but will require a degree of infrastructure work as well as signalling design, and currently signalling design is I am told still difficult and likely to become moreso with CrossRail and other schemes coming online.

The current phase of platform extensions is taking up signalling design time as well.

The ability to go abroad is becoming less of an answer as around the world investment is going into Railways, especially Australia and the Middle East (Far East as well again shortly), and taking up what was spare capacity there.

Referring to the Eastern Region, have you forgotten about the panel in the relay room at Hertford North - I believe it controls Langley Junction to Cuffley only with the ability for the signaller to work the section from Hertford North instead of Kings Cross PSB.

 

[GB]

Given the the latest investment, upgrades and extensions Colchester PSB has had over the last couple of years and the fact they are under a rolling programe to replace the 2 remaining NX panels with VDU workstations, I find it suprising and hard to believe there will be a signalling center at Romford that takes over.

Slave panels only offer basic and limited operation.

 

[Metroland]

As this is a 15 year project, I would expect more than enough installers and engineers could be trained to cope with the workload in any case in that time.

Most of this is happening already, for example in the East Midlands Leicester PSB gets abolished later this year as well as more parts of Trent, and boxes controlling the Robin Hood line. In the West Midlands various resignalling is taking place to abolish Wolverhampton and Walsall PSBs, Saltley, Birmingham NS in 2015, and boxes along the line to Worcester right now, and Banbury in 2012. On the western Slough IECC gets abolished later this year, closely followed by Swindon B and Slough PSB, with Bristol, Westbury, Gloucester.

In most of the cases above the contracts have been let, or are up for bidding

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5867.aspx

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...twork Code\Network Change\Completed Proposals

I disagree with large centres are bad, not if they are correctly engineered. The whole of the national grid is controlled from once centre at Aldermaston, with a back up in Leicester. Most water companies control their networks from one centre, Air traffic control is centred mainly at Swanick. Most US railroads have one large control centre, EG BNSF, Union Pacific.

Mechanical boxes, as nice as they look, do not belong in the internet age and they are expensive to man.

In any case signalling tech is moving on at a rapid pace with low maintenance/easy install signals (like VMS), modular signalling which does not require 650v supply lines, signalling over the internet, ERTMS, radio signalling, moving block and automatic train control. Re-controls (which most of this will be) are quite straightforward to set up, and there is no limit to signal box boundaries if controlled over an FTN.

15 years is a long time, a lot can change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slave panels only offer basic and limited operation.

Old fashioned RRI ones do yes, but all the contractors offer products like WestCad that be configured to work current RRI or SSIs comparatively quickly. Slough IECC is being abolished in 6 months, and that's with new interlockings.

 

[The Planner]

boxes along the line to Worcester right now, and Banbury in 2012.

Jumping the gun there a bit, Stourbridge, Blakedown, Kiddy and Hartlebury are next year at the earliest. Banbury is at least 2-3 years away, they still don't know what they are going to do there yet.

 

[route:oxford]

Just to give you a starter, a recent dewirement required Balfour Beatty to fly staff in from Europe to support Network Rail.

Do you mean the mainland? We've been part of Europe for quite some time now.

 

[Ferret]

Metroland - they're all well and good until they go wrong (like anything really!). Remember the recent farce of York going belly up on a Saturday afternoon? What a fiasco that was.....

 

[Metroland]

Jumping the gun there a bit, Stourbridge, Blakedown, Kiddy and Hartlebury are next year at the earliest. Banbury is at least 2-3 years away, they still don't know what they are going to do there yet.

I suppose what I meant is the contract has been let and the design work is going in for the Worcester line resignalling.

http://www.rail.co/2011/02/09/atkins-wins-west-midlands-signalling-contract/

 

[Old Timer]

As this is a 15 year project, I would expect more than enough installers and engineers could be trained to cope with the workload in any case in that time.

THose trained will only be to replace those "lost" but in any case this is not like training car mechanics or HVAC engineers, there are something that are subjective and take time to learn. And people do have to be mentored, and that costs money.

There is also a limit to how much mentoring can be done by one person in anycase.

Most of this is happening already, for example in the East Midlands Leicester PSB gets abolished later this year as well as more parts of Trent, and boxes controlling the Robin Hood line. In the West Midlands various resignalling is taking place to abolish Wolverhampton and Walsall PSBs, Saltley, Birmingham NS in 2015, and boxes along the line to Worcester right now, and Banbury in 2012. On the western Slough IECC gets abolished later this year, closely followed by Swindon B and Slough PSB, with Bristol, Westbury, Gloucester.

In most of the cases above the contracts have been let, or are up for bidding.

In many cases these have been designed or are in the process of design. Again you simply cannot pull someone in from off the street and then train them to be a successful signalling designer overnight.

But in any case you are missing the point, for the strategy to work, the signalling design and installation would have to hit the ground running NOW. That is the issue, not 5 or 10 or 15 years hence.

I disagree with large centres are bad, not if they are correctly engineered. The whole of the national grid is controlled from once centre at Aldermaston, with a back up in Leicester. Most water companies control their networks from one centre,

Again missing the point to some degree. Whilst the examples you quote may well be correct, the railway runs its power and signalling cables at surface level in areas that are obvious to all. Water and Power companies do not require the same level of security that railway control systems do (typically EAL5/6/6+ or the MILS equivalent level), also they can use radio systems to control remote locations, and if they fail they just "send a man to turn the switch" as happened when my local electricity supplier had acontrol problem several years back when I was in the UK.

Air traffic control is centred mainly at Swanick. Most US railroads have one large control centre, EG BNSF, Union Pacific. .

UK airspace is controlled by either Swanwick or Prestwick, and I am sure you will recall the total chaos when Swanwick developed a minor fault some time back.

Whilst the UP does have a central interlocking control centres there are still local despatching centres, some shared with other railroads.

BNSF for example some decentralization a while back by setting up two new regional centres, one in Spring Texas[a Houston suburb] for working the lines in South & Central Texas. The other is in Kansas City and controls some both former BN & ATSF lines in the Kansas City area to the Northwest, West & South.

The main line from Kansas City Eastward to Chicago[former ATSF] is still handled from Fort Worth though they did relocate those desks to the KC center for a while then moved them back.

NS has various regional dispatching centres such as Harrisburg, Fort Wayne, Knoxville, Decataur.

CSX dispatches from Calumet City (home of the fabulous Blues Brothers) and Jacksonville, amongst other places.

There has actually been a move away from centralised dispatching and control centres in the US (for good reasons) as demonstrated by this CSX story.

he Florida Times-Union
June 30, 2007
CSX shipping 300 jobs out of Jacksonville

By URVAKSH KARKARIA,
The Times-Union

CSX Corp. plans to idle up to 300 local jobs as it shunts the majority of its train dispatch operations outside the state.
--------------------------------------------------


The Jacksonville work will, over the next two years, be moved to existing offices in Baltimore; Nashville; Huntington, W. Va.; Cincinnati; Florence, S.C.; and Atlanta.

Once the transfer of work is completed in August 2009, the Jacksonville operation will employ about 54 train dispatchers.

Jacksonville-based CSX has four dispatch centers, located in the Midwest and East Coast, responsible for routing trains along its tracks. Most dispatchers have been concentrated in Jacksonville since 1988, when the company established a centralized operating facility that oversees the entire network.

The relocation will improve the productivity and efficiency of train dispatching operations, CSX spokesman Gary Sease said Friday.

"We're taking these dispatching functions out of headquarters," Sease said, "and putting them into field offices, closer to where the train operations occur."

The realignment will result in more effective and efficient decision-making, improved system reliability and improved train performance, CSX said in a notice to train dispatchers.

While train dispatchers - who, on average, make nearly $35 an hour, or almost $73,000 annually - will be mostly affected by the relocation of work, about 25 local signalmen would also see their jobs moved. Signalmen, among other things, maintain the dispatching equipment and respond to problems with railroad crossing signals and gates. About 10 percent of the affected workers are in management.

Workers will be offered jobs in the new locations, Sease said.

urvaksh.karkaria@jacksonville.com,

(904) 359-4367

This story can be found on Jacksonville.com at http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/063007/bus_181031127.shtml.

Do you mean the mainland? We've been part of Europe for quite some time now.

I mean Europe as in the way that the term is interpreted by most people, i.e mainland Europe


An audio clip of a BNSF dispatcher losing his rag
BNSF Dispatcher

 

[DarloRich]

@ ot - an earlier post - i am on phone and it wont handle a long quote - gist of your post being one big centre = bad when brown stuff has a fan interaction but would emergency control cabins be of use? In that staff could be transported to thse locations to keep things moveing ala control failures/evacuations?

 

[jopsuk]

At the Dutch disruption, I got the impression that one of the things they did was transfer control and signalers to other centres, which are equipped with "spare" workstations, normally not manned/controlling anything for just such eventuality.