Nottingham to Scotland Trains

[HSTEd]

Well I've heard some bits around about there using to be through trains form Nottingham to Scotland, and that this service stopped shortly after privatisation.

Can anyone tell me anything about this service, if it existed, and why it was cancelled.

Likewise, are there any similar trains that were eliminated during or in the immediate aftermath of Privatisation?

 

[flymo]

Looking at the 1984 timetable, there were a couple of services form Nottingham through to Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Northbound

Mon-Sat
0727 - Glasgow C. 1405 / Edinburgh 1411
1043 (0717 from Harwich PQ) The European - Glasgow C. 1710 / Edinburgh 1710

Sun
1517 - Glasgow C. 2150 / Edinburgh 2150

Southbound

Mon - Fri
1110 from Edinburgh / 1120 from Glasgow C via Nottingham at 1735 to Harwich PQ (2110) The European
1510 from Edinburgh / 1520 from Glasgow C to Nottingham at 2144.

Sun
1605 from Edinburgh / 1620 from Glasgow C to Nottingham at 2238.

All of the above were via Manchester Victoria and Bolton and would split / join at Carstairs.

Going back a few more years to 1975 there was a daily daytime St. Pancras to Glasgow via Nottingham and the Settle/Carlisle.
Also a daily (nightly?) overnight from St Pancras via Nottingham to Glasgow C. (sleepers from Nottingham) and a return sleeper from Glasgow C. as far as Nottingham.

Hope this is of interest....

 

[12CSVT]

I think the Nottingham - Glasgow services ended some time before privatisation.

They were re-routed from the Settle & Carlisle to WCML / Preston / Hope Valley in 1982 at a time when British Rail were looking for an excuse to close the S&C

 

[HSTEd]

I assume these trains were loco hauled with an electric locomotive being added where the train joined the WCML, whether that be at Carlisle or at Wigan?

 

[12CSVT]

I assume these trains were loco hauled with an electric locomotive being added where the train joined the WCML, whether that be at Carlisle or at Wigan?

They changed loco at Preston, then ran via Chorley, Bolton, Manchester Victoria, Phillips Park Jcts, Ashburys, Belle Vue then Hope Valley.

 

[Welshman]

Going back a few more years to 1975 there was a daily daytime St. Pancras to Glasgow via Nottingham and the Settle/Carlisle.
Also a daily (nightly?) overnight from St Pancras via Nottingham to Glasgow C. (sleepers from Nottingham) and a return sleeper from Glasgow C. as far as Nottingham.

Hope this is of interest....

Indeed - and going back even further, there was in addition to the "Thames- Clyde Express", mentioned above, another named train - "The Waverley" which left St Pancras at 0910, travelling via the Midland line to Leeds and Carlisle, then the erstwhile Waverley Line through the Borders to Edinburgh Waverley, arriving after a marathon journey of almost 10 hours, at 1855!

Returning, it took even longer, leaving Edinburgh at 1005 and not arriving St Pancras until 2010, but providing a useful through link between the Borders and London.

 

[HSTEd]

What were the timings like between Sheffield and Manchester? Are there any Sprinter Differentials that would prevent such services being run again using full sized units?
I simply ask that since there is chronic overcrowding between Nottingham and Manchester that additional services running as extensions of existing TPE North-West trains could be viable.

 

[12CSVT]

In the 1985 timetable Manchester Victoria to Sheffield took around 70 to 75 minutes (including a slow stagger via Phillips Park Jct and Ashburys). Hourly Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield services (class 31s with 5 or 6 mk2s) took about 60 to 63 minutes with most calling at New Mills Central. Local stoppers were generally hourly Sheffield - New Mills and hourly (or twice hourly depending on time of day) New Mills - Manchester, with 1st generation DMUs.

It should also be noted that the lines linking Hazel Grove High Level Jct to Hazel Grove station and Windsor Bridge South Jct to Ordsall Lane Junction didn't open until 1987/1988.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Nottingham-Scotland didn't fit with the "X" of the Cross Country franchise and so was cut back to a Manchester-Scotland service with VT.
This has now migrated to TPE, and there would be nothing to stop TPE running a Sheffield-Manchester-Scotland service if they and the DfT wanted to.
But they have this fixation with Manchester Airport, so no chance.

 

[kylemore]

The "European" - 10 hours Glasgow -Parkeston Quay in a Mark 1 compartment -pure luxury!

 

[IanXC]

Indeed - and going back even further, there was in addition to the "Thames- Clyde Express", mentioned above, another named train - "The Waverley" which left St Pancras at 0910, travelling via the Midland line to Leeds and Carlisle, then the erstwhile Waverley Line through the Borders to Edinburgh Waverley, arriving after a marathon journey of almost 10 hours, at 1855!

Returning, it took even longer, leaving Edinburgh at 1005 and not arriving St Pancras until 2010, but providing a useful through link between the Borders and London.

The Waverley as a railtour would be ace!

 

[ainsworth74]

The Waverley as a railtour would be ace!

Whilst I agree with the sentiments wholeheartedly I do have to point out that north of Carlisle there would be a few practical issues with the routing

 

[IanXC]

Whilst I agree with the sentiments wholeheartedly I do have to point out that north of Carlisle there would be a few practical issues with the routing

Ah yes indeed! Should have put the Thames-Clyde like I was first thinking.

 

[HSTEd]

Well you could route a Nottingham-Scotland train via Crewe and Manchester Airport but that would likely take multiple reversing moves and a rather long time.

 

[ashworth]

As we approach 2012 it is now 30 years ago since Nottingham to Glasgow services were withdrawn from the Settle to Carlisle route. They were re-routed via Manchester for a few years but didn't last beyond the late 1980's, meaning that it is now approx 25 years since there were last through srvices between Nottingham and Glasgow.

Maybe they were not profitable all those years ago, but perhaps part of the reason for this was the long journey time. Things have moved on during the past 25 years. Many rail services throughout the country have seen a significant rise in passenger levels resulting in overcrowding. Perhaps now is the time to bring such a service back with faster trains and shorter journey times. However, I have the feeling this may never happen!

Since the through trains finished, Nottingham to Glasgow has not been an easy journey by rail and even today things are little better.
Even using the new XC service to Glasgow via the ECML with one change at Derby, Chesterfield or Sheffield the journey time is in excess of 6 hours.
The fastest journey times to Glasgow are now via Manchester with timings at approx 5h 20 mins. This sort of timings can also be achieved on the outward journey via Crewe but connections to not allow it for Glasgow to Nottingham.
Both of these journeys are inconvenient with use of the crowded Norwich-Liverpool Service and TPE Manchester-Glasgow services, and the use of the overcrowded through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly. The journey via Crewe also involves an additional change at Derby.
Now that East Coast do not run through to Glasgow, the option of changing at Grantham has also been lost.

Interestingly the fastest times for the Settle to Carlisle route, with changes at Leeds and Carlisle is 6h 20m, and that involves a 10 minute connection at Leeds and 30 minutes at Carlisle. Could a through train, with a faster route between Nottingham and Leeds, and only limited stops between Leeds and Carlisle get the journey down to 5hrs or less?

Maybe this route could be a success again. Not only Nottingham would benefit from throufgh trains to Glasgow but also Sheffield, Leeds and other intermediate stations. However, as I said earlier, it will never happen!

 

[HSTEd]

The reason that teh Settle and Carlisle trains are so slow is not because of track quality or whatever, it is a result of the fact that the line has heavy haul freight traffic on it and has relatively severe gradients.

The freight takes sufficiently long to clear the line that speeding up passenger trains on the route would simply trap them ebhind the freight sooner and they would still have the same journey time.
Additionally adding freight loops is of questionable utility due to the gradients and the difficulty inherent in starting and stopping coal trains.

Via Manchester is the only practical solution, hence why i think the Manchester-Scotland trains could perhaps be extended to Nottingham via Sheffield, using Manchester Victoria to keep them out of the through platforms at Piccadilly.

 

[Bellwater]

it's pretty good from Nottingham to Glasgow, you can get there and back on a Saturday which is impossible going down the East Coast Main line.

Doing it next Tuesday and not badly priced if you know what tickets to use. the only thing, as Ashworth says, you have to suffer the overcrowded TPE Manchester-Preston for an hour or so.

 

[HSTEd]

it's pretty good from Nottingham to Glasgow, you can get there and back on a Saturday which is impossible going down the East Coast Main line.

Doing it next Tuesday and not badly priced if you know what tickets to use. the only thing, as Ashworth says, you have to suffer the overcrowded TPE Manchester-Preston for an hour or so.

I calculate that a six carriage ED Meridian formed thus:
DMS-MS-MS-PTS-MSM-DMF would have 306 2nd class seats and 30 1st class seats, effectively equivalent to a double Cl185 set.
If you were to run an hourly train from Nottingham to Scotland, alternating in end point between Edinburgh and Glasgow running via Hope Valley, the overall journey time would almost certainly be under 5 hours, accounting for the higher top speed of the Meridian.

This would relieve overcrowding on the Manchester-Preston TPE Northwest service and on the busy Manchester-Sheffield-Nottingham corridor as well as on TPE North in advance of electrification by releasing additional Cl185 units.

EDIT: I worked otu a route via Derby and the MML rather than teh Erewash Valley line and I reckon roughly 4h45 total could be achievable.

 

[MCR247]

Higher top speed of the meridian? Optimistic a bit? 10mph gained on WCML, and pretty marginal elsewhere?

I think a

Nottingham - Derby - Stockport - Manchester - Scotland train would be good because it would:
- Give Derby a service to Manchester, which it surprisingly hasn't got
- Give Nottingham a second Manchester service, which is needed
- It avoids Sheffield

This would obviously run instead of and not alongside to TPE Scotland services.

If only there was the stock etc

 

[Liam]

I calculate that a six carriage ED Meridian formed thus:
DMS-MS-MS-PTS-MSM-DMF would have 306 2nd class seats and 30 1st class seats, effectively equivalent to a double Cl185 set.
If you were to run an hourly train from Nottingham to Scotland, alternating in end point between Edinburgh and Glasgow running via Hope Valley, the overall journey time would almost certainly be under 5 hours, accounting for the higher top speed of the Meridian.

Would really need to be a Super Voyager to make the most of the WCML 125 bits.

 

[HSTEd]

Would really need to be a Super Voyager to make the most of the WCML 125 bits.

Well the train would be only on the WCML north of Wigan, which is pretty limited in terms of time saving, ofcourse you might be able to operate the service by displacing the XC 221s, EDing/extending them and reinstating the tilt mechanism.

 

[dk1]

I simply ask that since there is chronic overcrowding between Nottingham and Manchester that additional services running as extensions of existing TPE North-West trains could be viable.

Since the December 2011 timetable change the problem is almost resolved. EMT now running 4-car trains to Manchester, & if no through TPx service, there are a plethora of Virgin Express's from Preston.

 

[HSTEd]

Since the December 2011 timetable change the problem is almost resolved. EMT now running 4-car trains to Manchester, & if no through TPx service, there are a plethora of Virgin Express's from Preston.

Yes, the four carriage trains that are still overcrowded, just not so obscenely so?

 

[lyndhurst25]

Renaissance Trains (www.renaissancetrains.com) is/was an open access operator who proposed reintroducing Nottingham to Glasgow trains. Looking at their website it hasn't been updated since 2009.

 

[dk1]

Yes, the four carriage trains that are still overcrowded, just not so obscenely so?

As with any service, the odd train will always be a problem. On the whole EMT have don a fantastic job. I have watched this route with interest for years & have never seen it so positive as it is now.

 

[12CSVT]

Renaissance Trains (www.renaissancetrains.com) is/was an open access operator who proposed reintroducing Nottingham to Glasgow trains. Looking at their website it hasn't been updated since 2009.

In which case the word 'is' can be deleted. If the proposal has been dormant since 2009 then I can't see this ever taking off.

 

[HSTEd]

In which case the word 'is' can be deleted. If the proposal has been dormant since 2009 then I can't see this ever taking off.

Either way, it seems a reasonable use of resources, although I favour myself a route via Sheffield simply because it avoids all stations routes via Crewe or crowding the lower WCML.
Could even upgrade the trains between Manchester and Scotland to half hourly and route the other 1tph through to Cardiff using the existing Cardiff-Manchester paths, alternating the end points to give each end point 1tp2h to each destination.

 

[xtradj]

looks like the Lpool and Nottm to Glasgow service has been scrapped or put on hold for now anyway

 

[ainsworth74]

looks like the Lpool and Nottm to Glasgow service has been scrapped or put on hold for now anyway

What services? The whole point of this thread was that there aren't any and that there aren't likely to be any for the foreseeable future...

 

[MCR247]

Some ridiculous open-access proposal