Nottingham City Transport

[SSmith2009]

One way to combat the potential lower range not meeting all day requirements would be have a vehicle swap in the early evening e.g lates could be run with a spare bus or one board that finishes early goes back for a top up.

First Leicester do this with some of their later services they'll go back to depot (around 6ish) then come out a few hours later again.

 

[MCR247]

One way to combat the potential lower range not meeting all day requirements would be have a vehicle swap in the early evening e.g lates could be run with a spare bus or one board that finishes early goes back for a top up.

First Leicester do this with some of their later services they'll go back to depot (around 6ish) then come out a few hours later again.

NCT already do this with their biogas fleet to an extent, it’s pretty common for an empty E400 to come of PSG and swap out a CBG so it can go home and start refuelling. At least on the 6 and 10 anyway.

 

[Hyebone]

so it can go home and start refuelling.

How long do they take to refuel?

 

[Andy Pacer]

One way to combat the potential lower range not meeting all day requirements would be have a vehicle swap in the early evening e.g lates could be run with a spare bus or one board that finishes early goes back for a top up.

First Leicester do this with some of their later services they'll go back to depot (around 6ish) then come out a few hours later again.

See post #224

There are a few very long boards that have to be swapped over in Leicester in the early evening when it's cold weather but otherwise it seems to work.

 

[MCR247]

You can’t blame them for being cautious. When the right product comes along I’m sure they’ll throw everything at it and place a massive order. Even Lothian (who took a long time to find what they thought was a good product with the Volvo BZL) have run into trouble.

Generally NCT is doing very well - their fleet is very good compared to many others so they really do have nothing to worry about.

There’s sometimes too much negativity on this forum!

I agree. I think NCT are in a pretty good position - the lack of night buses’ return is a shame and it’s not ideal for them that biogas buses are expensive to fuel right now but apart from that it’s hard to fault them.

If they think these 48 changes will work, I’m all for them trying. To be fair to them, they aren’t afraid to experiment with changes and if they don’t work they usually make further changes pretty quickly. Remember when they converted the 15, 16, 87 and 88 to Solo SRs and then ordered E200s pretty quickly when they were quickly swamped.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2025 ==

How long do they take to refuel?

I’m not too sure to be honest. But longer than diesel I believe. It might not just be the fueling time, but the logistical of getting the entire fleet done and arranged in order to leave in the morning, on top of anything else they need to do.

Christmas Eve/NYE they bring the gas buses in to start refueling them earlier.

 

[Robertj21a]

Given their obvious liking for Yutong single deckers have they tried a Yutong double decker ?

 

[Andyh82]

You can’t blame them for being cautious. When the right product comes along I’m sure they’ll throw everything at it and place a massive order. Even Lothian (who took a long time to find what they thought was a good product with the Volvo BZL) have run into trouble.

Generally NCT is doing very well - their fleet is very good compared to many others so they really do have nothing to worry about.

There’s sometimes too much negativity on this forum!

I agree with that

People are talking like they are running buses from 2003 not 2013

I’m sure if they are still around in 3 years it’ll be fine

 

[NNN_062]

With the possible frequency increase on the 48 along with it becoming single decker from the end of March, Im now wondering if any other services will change : Whether the routes change or if the frequency changes. I heard talk about the 50 extending to Teal Park estate at some point, as well as the 5 now also serving Buckfast Way.

In all fairness, Maroon Line 14 should be brought back but in a way that it follows the old 13 through to Beeston and then the old 14 to Chilwell, perhaps every half hour only during Mon-Sat Daytimes. I bet it would carry a good number of passengers with the University as an alternative bus to the 34/C, perhaps a question mark on the Beeston to Chilwell section though as even the 36 is often near empty. I think the reason why Maroon Line went was due to delays and tramworks, perhaps even after they changed the route in 2013, but I could be wrong

 

[tram21]

I heard talk about the 50 extending to Teal Park estate at some point

That's definitely happening, they were just waiting on a turning place being put in. Hopefully that's happened now...

There are definitely some renumbering plans in the pipeline, but whether its this change or next I don't know...

 

[callum3490]

Given their obvious liking for Yutong single deckers have they tried a Yutong double decker ?

Yes, fairly certain they have trialled all electric deckers available in the UK including the new E400EV and are still saying that they have not found a suitable one

I agree with that

People are talking like they are running buses from 2003 not 2013

I’m sure if they are still around in 3 years it’ll be fine

It’s not necessarily that, NCT have notoriously always kept a relatively young and well maintained fleet, the E400s some of are clocking up higher mileage than the older 61 plate omnidekkas, and theres been a lot of chatter about route numbers changing (some already happened) which will accommodate new routes potentially. The omnidekkas being withdrawn will essentially leave NCT 6 double deckers down at a time where there seems to have been a “vehicle shortage” and issues with the fleet are only likely to increase with age and mileage. There was a previous comment about life expectancy of the biogas bus tanks being 10 years which means the oldest ones only have nearly 2 years left before potentially being EOL if true.

When you look at that perspective is it likely that a new electric DD will come available in the next 12-18 months? The new E400EV seems to offer good range but that still isnt enough and theres not much likeliness battery technology will improve significantly more yet

Likeliness is that at some point they will have to buy some diesel deckers unless they can somehow pull some more biogas deckers out of the bag (maybe ADL/Scania will fulfil a decent order much like Optare with the Solo SR). It wouldn’t be the end of the world other than breaking their commitment to cleaner/alternative fuels which was made at the time that the biogas e400s were still available

It’ll be an interesting couple of years to say the least

 

[adrianjohnson]

Isn't the 7 due to be re-routed around Edwalton Fields at some point as the current route is temporary. I think some other part of the estate needs completing first. I'm not sure if that'll need an increase in PVR though.

 

[joieman]

Isn't the 7 due to be re-routed around Edwalton Fields at some point as the current route is temporary. I think some other part of the estate needs completing first. I'm not sure if that'll need an increase in PVR though.

And something will need to be done about the 9 at some point. The route number can't remain duplicated with Kinchbus's service forever... especially not when they actually share the same route between the railway station and Trent Bridge.

 

[ACBest]

And something will need to be done about the 9 at some point. The route number can't remain duplicated with Kinchbus's service forever... especially not when they actually share the same route between the railway station and Trent Bridge.

I sincerely doubt that’ll change - wasn’t there a point in time when there were three 9’s running along that common section of route, those being the NCT 9, Kinchbus 9 and Premiere Red9?

 

[Andy Pacer]

And something will need to be done about the 9 at some point. The route number can't remain duplicated with Kinchbus's service forever... especially not when they actually share the same route between the railway station and Trent Bridge.

If that was a perceived issue I'm sure it would've been dealt with by now, and presumably as the NCT route is longer standing it's Kinch that ought to be renumbered (but that's going off topic now).

 

[tramboy]

The omnidekkas being withdrawn will essentially leave NCT 6 double deckers down at a time where there seems to have been a “vehicle shortage” and issues with the fleet are only likely to increase with age and mileage.

There's an assumption being made that the Omnidekkas are being withdrawn this year. Given that they are on university work and only working for a limited part of the year, it wouldn't be surprising if they continued for longer.

Reading continued to run "54" plated Omnidekkas on their University work until this year - what's to say NCT won't do the same if they can continue to look after the 2011 examples that run on the 4s.

 

[Andy Pacer]

There's an assumption being made that the Omnidekkas are being withdrawn this year. Given that they are on university work and only working for a limited part of the year, it wouldn't be surprising if they continued for longer.

Reading continued to run "54" plated Omnidekkas on their University work until this year - what's to say NCT won't do the same if they can continue to look after the 2011 examples that run on the 4s.

Where does this assumption come from? Is it substantiated or just the "spotters" getting ahead of themselves?

 

[Lynford1976]

Where does this assumption come from? Is it substantiated or just the "spotters" getting ahead of themselves?

The "assumption" is made by NCT's Managing Director, David Astill, in this talk to the Friends of King Alfred Buses from earlier this year:

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Yes, fairly certain they have trialled all electric deckers available in the UK including the new E400EV and are still saying that they have not found a suitable one

How recent was the statement about not finding a suitable electric decker? Unless they have re-stated it recently I'm sure that statement was explaining why they kept buying gas buses after most others had stopped so related to the first generation electric deckers (Optare Metrodecker & BYD/Enviro generation) rather than the latest generation with much better range.

Apart from those last OmniDekkas on the 4 their deckers were newer than their oldest singles (the last of the Solos) and as they are lighter weight models they would have a shorter design life so it makes sense to start replacing the singles genertally and there is a logic once you have started on the process to replace more than just the oldest for consistency sake (and NCT has never struggled to sell their buses so they probably got a good price for the younger models like the E200MMCs that they replaced early). Additionally, of course, the introduction of electric buses is partly funded by government grants and when the bid in the latest deckers had either not been launched or their performance was not yet clear so again it made sense to wait for these to actually appear in the flesh and replace the singles whilst you can to give time to assess the best option for the decker. Also by waiting to replace the next set of deckers you spread the age of your decker fleet a bit as there had been a sizeable investment in the gas buses, with the electric bus investment their are some operators with a very lumpy age profile that is going to make ongoing fleet replacement difficult (Warrington are the worst as they aren't part of a big group and are replacing their entire fleet in one order but First Leicester's entire fleet is, apart from a couple of retrofits that have popped up, delivered across 12 months - good now but if they don't start replacing early it becomes a problem in 10 years as everything becomes old together, this happened last time there was a big bang at Leicester with everything replaced by new Volvos in 5 years from 2000-2005 and then no new buses for a decade, and you then have to replace everything at once without the help of government grants you got first time round).

Performance reports would suggest that probably ADL, Wright, Yutong & BYD at least can deliver ranges & performance that probably meet the needs of NCT now (though there are other considerations like internal layout that may hinder some) but only the Wrights was a physical vehicle when the bids went in for the government grants (though I think that was around the time Wrights had their financial issues so they were probably still an iffy supplier though had been saved by the time orders would have gone in - Wrights success in electric buses has really come from Arrival failing to deliver a single bus so First had to find a new supplier late in the order cycle by which time Wrights were stable and a viable supplier that they weren't when the original orders for ZEBRA 1 went in) and even that has been substantially upgraded since.

 

[Andy Pacer]

The "assumption" is made by NCT's Managing Director, David Astill, in this talk to the Friends of King Alfred Buses from earlier this year:

And chance of a heads up to where in the 1 hour 44 minute video it's discussed? He had said to me previously that they were looking at options to replace them, but at that time they hadn't specified as to when.

 

[edwin_m]

Isn't the 7 due to be re-routed around Edwalton Fields at some point as the current route is temporary. I think some other part of the estate needs completing first. I'm not sure if that'll need an increase in PVR though.

I expect that to be simply through-routeing it with the 8 to make a bi-directional loop similar to the 8 and 9, keeping the same numbers outbound as nobody cares much what the number is on the inbound. This doesn't change the peak vehicle requirement, although it may result in more vehicles running into the late evening (the 7 continues to end of service but the 8 stops around 2000). This requires Rose Way to be connected through to Musters Road, but that is still fenced off. The rest of Rose Way is now open, but when I looked a few weeks ago there was no sign of bus stops being constructed beyond the existing terminus.

And something will need to be done about the 9 at some point. The route number can't remain duplicated with Kinchbus's service forever... especially not when they actually share the same route between the railway station and Trent Bridge.

Under the above the 9 would presumably become an out-and-back to Rushcliffe School via Compton Acres, so it would duplicate the Kinch 9 at three stops on Loughborough Road in both directions instead of just one (as well as still duplicating north of the Trent). I agree it's Kinch who ought to re-number - I think they called it 99 at one time.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Under the above the 9 would presumably become an out-and-back to Rushcliffe School via Compton Acres, so it would duplicate the Kinch 9 in both directions for two stops on Loughborough Road instead of just one. I agree it's Kinch who ought to re-number - I think they called it 99 at one time.

It was 99 when Arriva ran it, Premiere then took it on as the red 9 with Kinch running as the 9 to the present day.

 

[edwin_m]

It was 99 when Arriva ran it, Premiere then took it on as the red 9 with Kinch running as the 9 to the present day.

Thanks. I think it was the X99 all the way to Birmingham many years ago. NCT routes only go up to 89 so even if they add some more, changing it back to 99 would avoid any conflict.

 

[joieman]

Thanks. I think it was the X99 all the way to Birmingham many years ago. NCT routes only go up to 89 so even if they add some more, changing it back to 99 would avoid any conflict.

But at the same time, all of Kinchbus's services have very low numbers, no more than 12 to be specific. And I wouldn't be surprised if they like it that way.

 

[Andy Pacer]

But at the same time, all of Kinchbus's services have very low numbers, no more than 12 to be specific. And I wouldn't be surprised if they like it that way.

I'm sure it will have been discussed at Enhanced Partnership if it is deemed an issue, for instance in Leicester it was agreed at the time that I'd renumber the Coalville 26 to 28 to avoid duplication in the city, this was done on the basis that the First route number was longer standing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2025 ==

Thanks. I think it was the X99 all the way to Birmingham many years ago. NCT routes only go up to 89 so even if they add some more, changing it back to 99 would avoid any conflict.

That's right, back in the Midland Red days it was the well respected X99 and then into Midland Fox it became the 99 and obviously onwards to Arriva. I used to enjoy driving that one.

 

[MCR247]

Yes, fairly certain they have trialled all electric deckers available in the UK including the new E400EV and are still saying that they have not found a suitable one

It’s not necessarily that, NCT have notoriously always kept a relatively young and well maintained fleet, the E400s some of are clocking up higher mileage than the older 61 plate omnidekkas, and theres been a lot of chatter about route numbers changing (some already happened) which will accommodate new routes potentially. The omnidekkas being withdrawn will essentially leave NCT 6 double deckers down at a time where there seems to have been a “vehicle shortage” and issues with the fleet are only likely to increase with age and mileage. There was a previous comment about life expectancy of the biogas bus tanks being 10 years which means the oldest ones only have nearly 2 years left before potentially being EOL if true.

When you look at that perspective is it likely that a new electric DD will come available in the next 12-18 months? The new E400EV seems to offer good range but that still isnt enough and theres not much likeliness battery technology will improve significantly more yet

Likeliness is that at some point they will have to buy some diesel deckers unless they can somehow pull some more biogas deckers out of the bag (maybe ADL/Scania will fulfil a decent order much like Optare with the Solo SR). It wouldn’t be the end of the world other than breaking their commitment to cleaner/alternative fuels which was made at the time that the biogas e400s were still available

It’ll be an interesting couple of years to say the least

The thing is we just don’t have all of the information. What can look like them having no plan at all from the outside could turn actually be the start of a ‘megaplan.’ I don’t know this to be the case of course, but NCT have shown themselves to be make sensible decisions in the long run imo. I remember around 2008-2010 they trialled the first iteration of the E400H on the 48 (I remember it being dual door so London demonstrator spec I imagine). Then when they kept ordering straight diesel buses into the ‘10s a common question that’d be asked in the social media comments was ‘why don’t you buy hybrids they’re better?? They have them in xyz they’re all painted green!!’ They had a stock answer to explain in almost layman’s terms how the business case didn’t stack up due to the cost difference in buying the buses and how they’d have to put fares up to recoup the costs. We now look back with hindsight and does it not seem daft paying 1.5 times more (or whatever it was) for a hybrid to get 5 years out of it before the battery is f******? Then you’ve gotta pay someone else to convert it to diesel anyway

 

[callum3490]

The thing is we just don’t have all of the information. What can look like them having no plan at all from the outside could turn actually be the start of a ‘megaplan.’ I don’t know this to be the case of course, but NCT have shown themselves to be make sensible decisions in the long run imo. I remember around 2008-2010 they trialled the first iteration of the E400H on the 48 (I remember it being dual door so London demonstrator spec I imagine). Then when they kept ordering straight diesel buses into the ‘10s a common question that’d be asked in the social media comments was ‘why don’t you buy hybrids they’re better?? They have them in xyz they’re all painted green!!’ They had a stock answer to explain in almost layman’s terms how the business case didn’t stack up due to the cost difference in buying the buses and how they’d have to put fares up to recoup the costs. We now look back with hindsight and does it not seem daft paying 1.5 times more (or whatever it was) for a hybrid to get 5 years out of it before the battery is f******? Then you’ve gotta pay someone else to convert it to diesel anyway

I absolutely agree, I don’t think the range of electric buses is the issue for NCT but more the expected range after a few years service combined with cold weather.

It’s a common question asked to them on their social media channels and they still continue to respond that they haven’t yet found a suitable option which would suggest there aren’t currently any plans.

The most sensible option would be to go back to Diesel for their deckers it’s just whether or not they want to break their previous guarantee. There are still plenty of operators (trentbarton prime example) who are purchasing mainly diesel buses with little signs of wanting to go full electric any time soon

 

[MCR247]

I absolutely agree, I don’t think the range of electric buses is the issue for NCT but more the expected range after a few years service combined with cold weather.

It’s a common question asked to them on their social media channels and they still continue to respond that they haven’t yet found a suitable option which would suggest there aren’t currently any plans.

The most sensible option would be to go back to Diesel for their deckers it’s just whether or not they want to break their previous guarantee. There are still plenty of operators (trentbarton prime example) who are purchasing mainly diesel buses with little signs of wanting to go full electric any time soon

(My bold)

But what is the most sensible option to outsiders on a rail forum who are purely relying on speculation may not actually be the most sensible option based on what NCT themselves know?

 

[Andy Pacer]

(My bold)

But what is the most sensible option to outsiders on a rail forum who are purely relying on speculation may not actually be the most sensible option based on what NCT themselves know?

Entirely correct!

 

[tramboy]

https://x.com/NCT_Buses/status/1897341012147937306

NCT would appear to have been out and about with one of the Yutong E12s for the 48 today.

 

[tram21]

More brand new buses for Clifton are coming!

Entering service on 30th March, the 48 will also run more often, with Monday to Saturday daytime buses every 15 minutes!

image shows a Navy Yutong E12 at Beastmarket Hill.