Nottingham City Transport

[Andy Pacer]

Would a combination of single deckers and increased frequency reduce the dwell time enough at each stop to speed the service up? And might that allow some cost savings?

For example, more frequent service potentially means fewer stops and less passengers per stop. Also, single deck means less waiting for passengers to climb the stairs.

It's possible, but they won't save any costs by using 5 singles all day over 4 doubles.

 

[tram21]

I believe this is all part of a wider picture. With no electric double decks on the horizon, due to there being nothing that suits the needs of the company, something is needed to replace the aging Omnidekkas which for whatever reason they don't want in the fleet. Therefore the Navy 4 needs replacement buses, of which there is nothing avaliable in the fleet. The Navy 48 is the only double-deck contender to become single decker, and therefore it's buses will transfer to the Navy 4 allowing the Ommidekkas to be withdrawn.

I believe it's worth the cost of the one extra bus and going single deck using subsided Yutongs, than it would be to buy a whole new fleet for Navy 4

 

[Andy Pacer]

I believe this is all part of a wider picture. With no electric double decks on the horizon, due to there being nothing that suits the needs of the company, something is needed to replace the aging Omnidekkas which for whatever reason they don't want in the fleet. Therefore the Navy 4 needs replacement buses, of which there is nothing avaliable in the fleet. The Navy 48 is the only double-deck contender to become single decker, and therefore it's buses will transfer to the Navy 4 allowing the Ommidekkas to be withdrawn.

I believe it's worth the cost of the one extra bus and going single deck using subsided Yutongs, than it would be to buy a whole new fleet for Navy 4

Some of that makes sense, but it still begs the question why not replace 4 for 4, why does it need a 5th bus?

 

[tram21]

Some of that makes sense, but it still begs the question why not replace 4 for 4, why does it need a 5th bus?

I went on the route today in the middle of the day and it was relatively busy, probably just about a full Yutong E12. To meet the capacity I assume a frequency uplift would be ideal.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I went on the route today in the middle of the day and it was relatively busy, probably just about a full Yutong E12. To meet the capacity I assume a frequency uplift would be ideal.

I think we're going round in circles here so probably wise to wait and see what actually happens!
Perhaps the working that currently does the morning peak extra working will be a Yutong and all will make perfect sense , or maybe it will have a frequency uplift in the peaks.

 

[edwin_m]

Some of that makes sense, but it still begs the question why not replace 4 for 4, why does it need a 5th bus?

Are the buses operating the 49 pooled with the 48?

 

[Andyh82]

I’m not sure why people are complaining about a frequency increase. NCT’s finances are their problem, I’m sure they know what they are doing.

 

[MCR247]

I believe this is all part of a wider picture. With no electric double decks on the horizon, due to there being nothing that suits the needs of the company, something is needed to replace the aging Omnidekkas which for whatever reason they don't want in the fleet. Therefore the Navy 4 needs replacement buses, of which there is nothing avaliable in the fleet. The Navy 48 is the only double-deck contender to become single decker, and therefore it's buses will transfer to the Navy 4 allowing the Ommidekkas to be withdrawn.

I believe it's worth the cost of the one extra bus and going single deck using subsided Yutongs, than it would be to buy a whole new fleet for Navy 4

I went on the route today in the middle of the day and it was relatively busy, probably just about a full Yutong E12. To meet the capacity I assume a frequency uplift would be ideal.

It seems like good future proofing to me which is commendable.

They had an E12 do a few trips on a Sunday towards the start of the year and it was well loaded. A couple of people standing from Electric Avenue into Clifton.

Whether it’s a PVR increase or not it seems like a positive move to me

 

[Andy Pacer]

Are the buses operating the 49 pooled with the 48?

Not currently.

 

[tram21]

Personally I think they would have been better making the 49 single deck, with it having lower loadings most of the time, with double deckers only on the 49X service.

However, I know there were plans at one stage to extend it towards Beeston through the new development on Thane Road, so if there are long term plans it would complicate it.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Personally I think they would have been better making the 49 single deck, with it having lower loadings most of the time, with double deckers only on the 49X service.

However, I know there were plans at one stage to extend it towards Beeston through the new development on Thane Road, so if there are long term plans it would complicate it.

That's a good point, the recent off peak frequency reduction to x20 (making a combined x10 with the 48 over the common section) definitely shows the P&R element seems to be in decline. Presumably the additional DD workings that run off other routes could be continued with the core service using single decks.
Whenever i've used the 49 recently off peak the loadings have been very light.

 

[callum3490]

I believe this is all part of a wider picture. With no electric double decks on the horizon, due to there being nothing that suits the needs of the company, something is needed to replace the aging Omnidekkas which for whatever reason they don't want in the fleet. Therefore the Navy 4 needs replacement buses, of which there is nothing avaliable in the fleet. The Navy 48 is the only double-deck contender to become single decker, and therefore it's buses will transfer to the Navy 4 allowing the Ommidekkas to be withdrawn.

I believe it's worth the cost of the one extra bus and going single deck using subsided Yutongs, than it would be to buy a whole new fleet for Navy 4

From whats being said on here and the publics general reaction it sounds like making the 48 into a single deck operation would be a mistake but could be wrong. Changing a route from double deck to single while increasing frequency wipes out their justification that the route didn’t justify doubles, as they wouldnt have increased the frequency with singles in that case.

Although what you’re saying also makes sense it only frees up 4 e400s for the 4 so other spares would need to be repainted too, not great with the vehicle shortage they seem to have suffered recently, plus the 2 omnidekka spares they’d lose they’ll be an extra 6 vehicles short

I have pondered what the hell their current plan is mid term for double decks - the oldest and majority of the e400s are fast trundling towards 12 years old which is the rough average age nct have historically replaced buses, theres a lot to replace. Theres little chance that within the next year or two a new electric double deck will enter the market that meets their requirements

 

[tram21]

I have pondered what the hell their current plan is mid term for double decks - the oldest and majority of the e400s are fast trundling towards 12 years old which is the rough average age nct have historically replaced buses, theres a lot to replace. Theres little chance that within the next year or two a new electric double deck will enter the market that meets their requirements

It's interesting and must be a bit of a challenge for them, as the original plan was to have electric deckers around next year, but as you say apparantly there's nothing that suits their needs.
Given that electrics are taking over city operator decker fleets across the country, and seemingly operating fine, does anyone know what's special about NCT which means the current electric specifications aren't suitable?

 

[Andy Pacer]

It's interesting and must be a bit of a challenge for them, as the original plan was to have electric deckers around next year, but as you say apparantly there's nothing that suits their needs.
Given that electrics are taking over city operator decker fleets across the country, and seemingly operating fine, does anyone know what's special about NCT which means the current electric specifications aren't suitable?

It seems to be the daily range that's challenging. NCT work their boards to stay out for the entire operational day on most services (e.g. from early morning until the last bus of the evening) whereas other operators (e.g. First in Leicester) run buses back into the depot at some stage, typically after the evening peak, for a top up charge and then send them back out with the late driver.

Similarly when I was involved in the Arriva EV introduction I opted to use diesel buses in the evenings to concentrate the EV range through the core operational day (roughly start of service until 2030hrs) - this also introduced the option of using single decks on evening workings.

 

[tram21]

It seems to be the daily range that's challenging. NCT work their boards to stay out for the entire operational day on most services (e.g. from early morning until the last bus of the evening) whereas other operators (e.g. First in Leicester) run buses back into the depot at some stage, typically after the evening peak, for a top up charge and then send them back out with the late driver.

Similarly when I was involved in the Arriva EV introduction I opted to use diesel buses in the evenings to concentrate the EV range through the core operational day (roughly start of service until 2030hrs) - this also introduced the option of using single decks on evening workings.

Well a quick Google really shows why it doesn't suit them. The Yutongs they have are claimed to have a range of 250-275 miles per charge, with the headline figure of the brand new ADL Enviro400EV being just 160miles. Given that the majority of the double deck routes do more milage than most the single deck routes, its unsurprising they aren't suitable.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Well a quick Google really shows why it doesn't suit them. The Yutongs they have are claimed to have a range of 250-275 miles per charge, with the headline figure of the brand new ADL Enviro400EV being just 160miles. Given that the majority of the double deck routes do more milage than most the single deck routes, its unsurprising they aren't suitable.

But as you say, plenty of other city operators are managing to male the switch to EV deckers, but it does take some creative scheduling at times or simply having to look at things in a different way.

 

[Trainman40083]

But as you say, plenty of other city operators are managing to male the switch to EV deckers, but it does take some creative scheduling at times or simply having to look at things in a different way.

I guess the fun comes around 8 years later when the electric bus batteries deliver about 70% of their original output

 

[Andy Pacer]

I guess the fun comes around 8 years later when the electric bus batteries deliver about 70% of their original output

Indeed - or during the winter months when the heating is on full pelt for much of the day which has caused operators challenges this winter.

 

[Trainman40083]

Indeed - or during the winter months when the heating is on full pelt for much of the day which has caused operators challenges this winter.

Batteries caused me enough grief on railway lineside infrastructure. Sometimes they fried in the heat, sometimes they did not perform well in the cold.... Sometimes one of the batteries in the chain failed. Engineers would replace one part, and the performance of the new battery got dragged down to the level of the other batteries. It was certainly a skill to ensure replacement batteries were available when needed. Reminds me of my local postman, who was given an electric van to do his round, about 3 miles from the depot. Daren't have the heating on. It might not get back to the depot. It will be interesting to see how they perform in about 7/8 years and what the secondhand market might look like.

 

[Deerfold]

Exactly my thoughts. The additional costs would be in the region of £200k per year - I doubt they would see an uplift on passenger derived revenue of £200k.

And if they did, they'd be needing double deckers again.

 

[MCR247]

It wouldn’t surprise me if they held onto the Enviro 400s until they’re looking to replace the CBGs so they can just do have one double decker fleet. By doing that they can wait and see what builders offer before deciding. The people who currently offer the longest range may not be the market leaders a few years down the line.

Whilst I personally prefer omnidekkas to E400s, NCT seem pretty happy with the E400s. They also fitted USB sockets to more of them over the last few years and that kind of thing.

The 48 also sees quite a high number of elderly passengers who rather wait for the bus and get a seat than take the more frequent tram. So downstairs on an E400 fills very quickly, although the same happens on all routes to some extent.

 

[Man of Kent]

Well a quick Google really shows why it doesn't suit them. The Yutongs they have are claimed to have a range of 250-275 miles per charge, with the headline figure of the brand new ADL Enviro400EV being just 160miles. Given that the majority of the double deck routes do more milage than most the single deck routes, its unsurprising they aren't suitable.

ADL documentation for the new Enviro400 EV states "385mi theoretical range in UK Bus Cycle at beginning of life (472kWh battery)" (source: https://www.alexander-dennis.com/site-content/uploads/2024/11/Enviro400EV-2024-11.pdf). It's the old BYD-based bus that only achieved 160 miles (https://www.evbus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/BYD-ADL-Enviro400EV.pdf).

 

[Ginga]

I had a quick flick though Nct's latest accounts. Passenger numbers are back upto 93% of 2019 levels. They have brought the Gas plant at Parliament Street depot for £1.5m. So that means the price of Cng gas is fixed for the next 7 years.

The old Pension scheme which they closed to new members in 2019 continueds to cost the company a small fortune! They are using Diesel buses to save money on expensive cng on Sundays on route 77.

 

[liamf656]

In the short term, wouldn't newer diesel deckers be better to replace the older E400s to keep the average age low, then replace those once a good enough electric bus comes onto the market?

 

[tram21]

In the short term, wouldn't newer diesel deckers be better to replace the older E400s to keep the average age low, then replace those once a good enough electric bus comes onto the market?

If there truly is nothing suitable then I'd definitely think so, but for them it would go against their commitment of no more diesel buses.

 

[Hyebone]

In the short term, wouldn't newer diesel deckers be better to replace the older E400s to keep the average age low,

Why is it such as bad thing to have an older fleet? 2013 Scania Enviro400s aren't exactly old either.

 

[Andy Pacer]

In the short term, wouldn't newer diesel deckers be better to replace the older E400s to keep the average age low, then replace those once a good enough electric bus comes onto the market?

I'm sure I read somewhere recently that they were looking at diesel options but I can't seem to find the quote/article now.

 

[liamf656]

Why is it such as bad thing to have an older fleet? 2013 Scania Enviro400s aren't exactly old either.

Because they made a promise to keep such a young fleet of vehicles. They have another promise to only buy zero emission vehicles, so one of these will have to be broken if they decide to either keep the E400s or buy new diesel deckers short-term.

 

[Hyebone]

Because they made a promise to keep such a young fleet of vehicles. They have another promise to only buy zero emission vehicles, so one of these will have to be broken if they decide to either keep the E400s or buy new diesel deckers short-term.

A product of their own short-sightedness

 

[buslad1988]

You can’t blame them for being cautious. When the right product comes along I’m sure they’ll throw everything at it and place a massive order. Even Lothian (who took a long time to find what they thought was a good product with the Volvo BZL) have run into trouble.

Generally NCT is doing very well - their fleet is very good compared to many others so they really do have nothing to worry about.

There’s sometimes too much negativity on this forum!