Nottingham 'Bus War'

[MarkyMarkD]

We've had this discussion elsewhere recently, but it seems bus fares are similarly expensive everywhere. For example, my local bus route in Lincoln is £2.10 single for a 4 mile journey, or £4.10 return.

That's nothing! You should try living in the Southeast (OUTSIDE London with its ridiculously low subsidised fares). My local bus journey to work is under 3.5 miles each way and costs £5.50 for a day rover ticket (which is cheaper than a straight return because the individual fares are SO high).

 

[tbone]

The thing is, Premiere won't get NCTs revenue to and from Clifton, so I think Nottingham - Airport traffic will make a loss, as it would (and will) on Trent Barton. But I think Trent Bartons will make a profit on the whole because it:
- Provides the Loughborough - Long Eaton indigo
- Competes with Red5 from Long Eaton - Nottingham
- May replace the LEX, or at least supplement it
- Provide TB with the oppurtunity to run another indigo somewhere else*

So it is basically killing lots of birds with one stone.

*Will they just turn it back at Long Eaton? With a recast they should use it to make the Derby service every 15 minutes as they are well patronized, but Derby bus station kills that idea.

Anyone have any ideas?

Long Eaton Xprss is reduced to one journey in each direction. Indigos that currently go as far as Loughborough will terminate at New Sawley.

I also wonder if these quicker Nottingam-Loughborough buses are the reason behind Kinch 9's withdrawl?

 

[bb21]

I also wonder if these quicker Nottingam-Loughborough buses are the reason behind Kinch 9's withdrawl?

Are they going to be faster? Traditionally the eastern route via Hoton, Costock and Ruddington was the fastest in terms of journey time. The middle route via East Leake, Gotham and Clifton took slightly longer, and the western route via Kegworth, EMA and Long Eaton was much slower than the other two. I can't seriously see how the western route can match journey times offered by the eastern route.

 

[tbone]

Are they going to be faster? Traditionally the eastern route via Hoton, Costock and Ruddington was the fastest in terms of journey time. The middle route via East Leake, Gotham and Clifton took slightly longer, and the western route via Kegworth, EMA and Long Eaton was much slower than the other two. I can't seriously see how the western route can match journey times offered by the eastern route.

I meant that skylink will be quicker than indigo as it goes limited stop

 

[bb21]

I meant that skylink will be quicker than indigo as it goes limited stop

I am sure this would be the case, however I still fail to see how this relates directly to the withdrawal of the 9, which runs along the eastern route.

I reckon it is more likely that Wellgrade Group realised Premiere are not going to back off and that their own offer is not sustainable in the longer term.

 

[Ginga]

Trent Barton Bingham Xprss, Radcliffe line , Connect and Rainbow 3 fares going up on 4th March.

Rainbow 3 is to get a rebrand and New Versas.

 

[trentside]

Given the reduction in BSOG, I'd expect that most operators will be raising fares.

Never ideal, especially in a competitive situation.

 

[WillPS]

Rainbow 3 is well overdue new vehicles.

 

[Heinz57]

I thought it was the Rainbow 4 that was next in line for new vehcles?

I do agree though, the Rainbow 3 is overdue for new vehcles. As is the Black Cat, those Tempos are useless. squeak and shake like they're going to fall apart!

R3 and 4 and the BC are probably some of the oldest buses in the TB fleet. Along with the Solos on the 23. But they just keep going and going

From what I've heard the leather seats are gone, and they won't be included on the new buses. Also, I beleive trent barton will soon be having new ticket machines across its fleet.

 

[WillPS]

The R4 vehicles are much newer than the R3s. As I recall, all the Rainbow Routes started with Deltas, then got Excels in the mid 90s, Excel2s in the late 90s/early 00s. Then 2004-2006 all the Rainbow routes got new Wright stuff (starting with the R5), except the R3 which simply got refurbed Excel2s. Since then the R2 and R5 have been upgraded *again*.

 

[MCR247]

I thought it was the Rainbow 4 that was next in line for new vehcles?

I do agree though, the Rainbow 3 is overdue for new vehcles. As is the Black Cat, those Tempos are useless. squeak and shake like they're going to fall apart!

R3 and 4 and the BC are probably some of the oldest buses in the TB fleet. Along with the Solos on the 23. But they just keep going and going

From what I've heard the leather seats are gone, and they won't be included on the new buses. Also, I beleive trent barton will soon be having new ticket machines across its fleet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62729064@N07/6216689631/

And new ticket machines again? These ones are only 3 years old?!

R4 & BC vehicles are relatively new though :?


And is indigo having some pretty major problems with its volvos recently? Yesterday there was 2 solos on the route (hock:hock, 306 the red tempo and 1 red volvo, with a LED fitted solar probably on the route somewhere, as there always seems to be recently.

This is the second time I've seen a solo on it in the last week, and it is only the second time I would have had chance to have seen one on the route hock:

 

[trentside]

R3 and 4 and the BC are probably some of the oldest buses in the TB fleet. Along with the Solos on the 23. But they just keep going and going

From what I've heard the leather seats are gone, and they won't be included on the new buses. Also, I beleive trent barton will soon be having new ticket machines across its fleet.

The Tempos on the Black Cat were new in 2007, but are far newer than those on the Bingham Xprss - some of the earliest ones built. These have received a refurbishment though.

I wouldn't be surprised if leather seats aren't included. I'd imagine they're expensive to repair if vandalised.

Not sure on the ticket machine thing - the INIT machines have only been in use a couple of years?

 

[MCR247]

Not sure on the ticket machine thing - the INIT machines have only been in use a couple of years?

Init

But yeah, they aren't that old really, so I can't imagine them being replaced.

 

[Ginga]

Word doing the rounds is that Rainbow 3 is to be rebranded around June and will get Versas. ( thats come from the Brand Manager) . Talk of it being cut back to every 12-15 minutes .

You think the Rainbow 3 Excels are bad look at the Hucknall Connect Solos. X regs with around 700 000km's on the clocks . They fail every few days and only spare Solos at Sutton are V reg's

Some Indigo Volvos got damaged by roadworks at Briar Gate, the Airtanks got smashed.

The Tempo SR order has been cut back to just the I4 buses it was for 39 buses , the rest will be made up with Versas.

 

[Heinz57]

And new ticket machines again? These ones are only 3 years old?!

Yeah the current machines are pretty new. But they're c**p. So they're apparently going to re-place the lot with some new ones, that work. Investmant worth a couple of mil apparently.

A friend of mine works at trent barton and was telling me about it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62729064@N07/6216689631/

That the new R4 brand? That looks niiice!... Well apart from the new look to the trent barton logo. Please tell me thats just a one off for this re-brand and not across the entire company

 

[WillPS]

Versas on the Rainbow 3 seems sensible but not with a frequency drop as well... perhaps they're planning something for Hucknall? I personally think Rainbow 3 should bypass Hucknall now - so few people use it for the town that it's really not worth it. It would be handing that market on a plate to Premiere though I guess.

Yeah the current machines are pretty new. But they're c**p. So they're apparently going to re-place the lot with some new ones, that work. Investmant worth a couple of mil apparently.

A friend of mine works at trent barton and was telling me about it.



That the new R4 brand? That looks niiice!... Well apart from the new look to the trent barton logo. Please tell me thats just a one off for this re-brand and not across the entire company

People said exactly the same thing in 2002(?) when they last rebranded. They left everyone else behind then, and they're about to do the same again.

 

[Heinz57]

There's a bit of a joke with the star/spot things on that new livery,

It's what the passengers will be looking at whilst they're waiting for the breakdown truck and replacement bus

 

[ashworth]

I haven't really understood Trent Bartons fares policy on the Rainbow 3 route between Hucknall and Nottingham during these last few years. It's as though they don't care about passenger numbers any more.

In the past Trent Buses always fought any competition between Hucknall and Nottingham but now with their return fare at £3.80 compared to £3.20 on the tram and only £3.10 on the train, no wonder people have deserted this route.
Also as I've commented before move a few stops off the Rainbow 3 route on the 141 route towards Linby and they charge you £5.60 return to Nottingham. That's why I have used the train or tram for years now and never use the bus.

 

[Heinz57]

I can't comment much on the R3. But some of trent bartons fairs can be quite pricey. Ilkeston to Nottingham is quite expensive I think. And Ilkeston to Derby keeps going up. Its going up again, probably because Felix are off the scene. So they can now charge whatever they want.

But I suppose what it is out in R3 world, trent barton mop up any competition. And they've probably done the same out there, so they can charge whatever they want. And now the trams are under wellglade now. Its trent barton or nothing.

An update on the ex-Felix bus fleet, 10 (the Volvo) is now bright yellow. Its been repainted ready for the Skylink, currently awaiting logos and decals. 03 and 05 (now numberd 598 and 600) are going to be repainted black, to match the Black Cats (its belived to be happening when 10 is finished). 56 and 08 are with Notts+Derby, but not known if and when they will be repainted. 56 was on the Notts+Derby 14 today, and a few weeks ago it was on unibus 6 (not where I would have liked to have seen it!). 56 and 08 have also both been on the ex-Felix black cat (where they belong!).

These four vehicles look a bit of a sorry sight at the moment. Quite dirty (Felix always kept there buses clean. The yard staff would always be out [even in the rain] cleaning them), and the decals look like they've been hurridly torn off.

I belive the Stanley depot may also be closed now. I went past the other day and there were no buses there, no cars outside and all the barriers and sheds were closed. Looks like Swiftsure have took the coaches up to Burton. Where the other old Felix service buses have gone I don't know. They are supposed to be doing the school runs until the contract runs out in March.

 

[tbone]

An update on the ex-Felix bus fleet, 10 (the Volvo) is now bright yellow. Its been repainted ready for the Skylink, currently awaiting logos and decals.

www.yfrog.com/ocqtrfkj

Now in full livery- looks very smart!

 

[Heinz57]

Dear me its realy happend!

The first bus to lose the Felix livery.

I do agree, the livery looks very smart. But I still perferd it when it said Felix down the side

 

[Deerfold]

Where the other old Felix service buses have gone I don't know. They are supposed to be doing the school runs until the contract runs out in March.

Don't know where they are but it is half term this week.

 

[WillPS]

Any pictures about of the debranded Felix buses?

I note the TrentBarton website still indicates that the former Felix (now Midland General?) services are still not accepting Mango and ZigZag - some mistake surely!?

 

[Heinz57]

Yep sure. There's this one (from DerbyBusDepot.co.uk) of 08 on the uni bus.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46642314@N05/6797853783/in/photostream

On the photo they look 'ok' its when you get close to them when you see that it looks like the decals have been hurridly taken off. 56 is the worse, in some places on that one you can easily make out all the writing, where they havn't scrubbed away the dirt that would have gatherd around and behined the stickers.

They're all basicaly like that. 03, 04 and 05 still retain the black cat and IF liveries they had before, they've just had any Felix writing taken off.

As far as I know they arn't accepting Mango yet. They can't be, they've got the old trent machines on there, that don't have a Mango reader. But perhaps when they have the repaint in a few weeks they'll add some Mango machines. They probably are accepting ZigZags now. And they no longer do half fares for OAPs before 9.30am.

I may well be wrong with the Mangos though

 

[WillPS]

I think that's fairly standard tbh. When Trent transferred a batch of Excels to TM Travel they ran for about 6 months in a much worse state with a cacophony of badly obscured branding.

The issue I think is the adhesive left behind once the vinyls are removed attracts dirt and doesn't just wash off, and it takes a lot of man effort to scrub it off (especially if they're due to be repainted imminently!).

 

[Heinz57]

There was a fast turn around with these vehicles too.

I beleive they were all taken to Medow Road late on the Saturday night when Felix ceised (25th Jan wasn't it?) and had to be back out on the roads on Monday. So that leaves just Sunday.

Lets face it, who wants to spend their Sunday scrubbing vinyl adhesive off the front of a bus? Whether its a Felix bus or not.

And of course there wasn't the just the outside decals, they had to take all the old decals off the inside, remove the old felix machines and 'wodden counter' and then add the new machines.

So they would have had to have rushed the job (the new fire extinguisher sign on 03 isn't very straight )

 

[Ginga]

Looks like a price war on the way for Long Eaton to Nottingham.

Skylink fares will be £1.50 single , £2.50 return and 10 trip will be £10.

The current Lex £5 weekly ticket is staying but Lex is getting cut to 2 trips per day

Red 5 fares to Long Eaton are £2 for a Two trip and £8 ten trip. Under 22's get a Single for a quid and £1.50 for a two trip.

The Long Eaton Xprss has had a nightmare this week , one morning they only had One bus out the PVR is Four.

They could not warn Customers on Trent Barton Live or Twitter as the people would just catch Red 5 , which after waiting 45 minutes for a Lex most people did.

Lots of talk around that some Trent Barton Brand Managers will lose their posts in April.

 

[MCR247]

Trent Barton aren't doing very well with vehicles with all of the solos and tempos on indigo as well as the solars and Volvo

 

[WillPS]

I think it's pretty clear what TrentBarton's intentions were with Skylink (bolster flagging overnight loadings and monopolising EMA) but it's clearly failed. What they've actually done is allow Premiere a pretty easy win by leaving the fast route to EMA open.

As a random EMA passenger from Nottingham, I could choose either the slower, more expensive Skylink or the faster, cheaper, Red Flyer where I can also be assured of luggage storage and even a booked seat. Even if my departure or arrival time coincides better with one of Skylink's half hourly services, there's not much difference (in terms of arrival in Nottingham) between catching that and just waiting for the next Red Flyer.

Add to this that Red Flyer is effectively taking over an already known service (in all but brand), and because they're not taking the brand they've even got a 2 day overlap with which existing regular Skylink passengers can become familiar with the Red Flyer.

Something is clearly a bit wrong with TrentBarton right now. Trent has for decades relied on its position as the friendly operator for passengers and the gentlemanly operator towards its possible rivals (Felix, NCT etc.). It was the combination of reputation and support from other local operators which meant they swiftly saw off Delta Bus in the 90s without any temporary fare reductions or other such gimmicks.

Fast forward to the late 00s, and another challenger appears. Rather than simply relying on their good name, they've taken to having a massively inconsistent and variable fare structure which change so often it's hard to keep up and introducing gimmicky services which they pretend are nothing to do with them. BargainBus? Oh no sir, that's Midland General doing that, not us. The duplicate of Premiere's X9? Oh no sir, that's Kinch, not us. The public don't like being bombarded with here-today-gone-tomorrow fares and services, nor do they enjoy being treated as idiots expected to believe that the distinctive Trent-red buses driven by Trent uniformed drivers are nothing to do with Trent.

Further, in this over-defensive vein they've managed to strain the long-standing goodwill between themselves and NCT, and totally annihilate another company which they have always previously worked with (as far as I can tell, out of sheer paranoia that Premiere would become involved!).

All this, and what success has TB had in seeing off Premiere? Limited at best, I'd say.

If heads are on the chopping block at Wellglade as suggested, I think it's about time the guillotine was lowered.

 

[starrymarkb]

I will say most of it changed since the long standing MD retired and Alex Hornby arrived from Bluestar, who if you'll remember were involved in a similar turf war with Velvet (Velvet weren't duplicating routes either, but merely running a positioning move with the bus in service through Bluestar territory was enough to see unbranded Bluestar buses running 2 mins ahead)