Nottingham 'Bus War'

[MCR247]

I'm sorry but that is bad. Surely they'd put it on the website or at least have it within the Indigo press release? If I turned up to the bus stop on monday expecting to catch an LEX then I'd be pretty....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And oh yeah, btw I'm loving the luggage space

 

[WillPS]

Pretty poor show all round really. Their effort toward creating an airport service is a new ceiling vinyl. Says it all.

 

[Ginga]

Long Eaton Exprss goes in May , its getting cut down to just 2 trips per day anyway.

8:45 Commuter Xprss is also getting cut.
Trent Bartons Skylink is getting a change already (not even started yet). it was on Vosa today something to do with stopping places.

One of the Two Kinch 9 Darts caught fire on the 22nd closing the A60 at Costock.

Trent Barton again failed to run Two Lex services on the 22nd , but had spare buses to do Skylink Route learning and park one up to show the public in Long Eaton.

 

[ARedFlyer]

So on the weekend the official subsidised Skylink NCT service ends Trent Barton (Skylink) and Premiere (RedFlyer) go head to head to head in a fight for a non-profitable service?!

As I will be using the RedFlyer I really hope it does well, but I have my doubts. Whilst the NCT service was close to running at even towards it's end, it was still receiving a subsidy to maintain it. Otherwise why would NCT withdraw it if there was profit to be made? They wouldn't even consider a reduced hourly frequency. Further still their tickets were £5 Single and £8 Return vs Premiere's £2 and £3.50 less than half the price! They'll be hard pressed to make profit from prices like that. I dread to think how much it costs in fuel etc to send that big white Coach Premiere are using for RF to EMA and back.

They are going to need to get the students on it through to Clifton Campus - which via word of mouth I can see happening as a possibility. Not that they would regularly use it, but if they are waiting and it comes before an NCT it makes common sense to jump on if you know about it! The RF will also need to pick up custom from Kegworth, the old NCT service didn't stop there but the RF goes there without affecting the speed of the journey.

They do have the advantage of having all the West Bridgford, Wilford and Clifton EMA workers on-side though, so they have a base to work from. I think they are relying on Holiday-Maker bookings to make it profitable, hence the reason for using the coach.

As for TB I found their SkyLink service a bit of a joke. The journey time is absolutely ridiculous, an hour vs Premiere's 35-40 minutes, for me that's a big difference. Who in their right mind would catch that over the Premiere? Even having to walk to Broad Marsh from Market Square you are still saving time. Plus the Premiere is obviously cheaper. But I still expect the loadings to be pretty good due to the already proven to-be-profitable "Red 5" route. I anticipate however there won't be many passengers by the time it reaches the airport.

If you go back to the start of this thread many written off Premiere straight away saying they wouldn't be able to compete, but 18 months or so later they are doing better than many expected with a couple of profitable routes. It seems they've developed a niche for fast and direct routes, whilst TB insist on visiting everywhere in between arrival and destination without any consideration for journey times.

Premiere have beaten the odds with several of their services so far, lets hope they can do the same with The Red (or white?) Flyer.

 

[tbone]

Luggage racks have been ordered and are on their way

As for TB I found their SkyLink service a bit of a joke. The journey time is absolutely ridiculous, an hour vs Premiere's 35-40 minutes, for me that's a big difference. Who in their right mind would catch that over the Premiere? .

First of all, it's 45 minutes vs 55 minutes. Premiere haven''t factored in roadworks on the A46 which are (and will continue to do so for some time) causing havoc and massive delays.

Secondly, say you've got your bags and get outside the terminal for, as an example 9:15. The next RedFlyer is at 10:00 and the next skylink is at 9:30, because of the frequency. RedFlyer will get you to Nottingham for 10:43, skylink for 10:25. It may be slower but you'll still get to Nottingham sooner.



Even having to walk to Broad Marsh from Market Square you are still saving time. Plus the Premiere is obviously cheaper. But I still expect the loadings to be pretty good due to the already proven to-be-profitable "Red 5" route. I anticipate however there won't be many passengers by the time it reaches the airport.

If you go back to the start of this thread many written off Premiere straight away saying they wouldn't be able to compete, but 18 months or so later they are doing better than many expected with a couple of profitable routes. It seems they've developed a niche for fast and direct routes, whilst TB insist on visiting everywhere in between arrival and destination without any consideration for journey times.

Premiere have beaten the odds with several of their services so far, lets hope they can do the same with The Red (or white?) Flyer.

Trent Barton don't "insist on visiting everywhere in between", look at how many routes are branded as "xprss", "flyer" or "rapid", loads, one of the main routes that Trent Barton and Premiere compete on is the Bingham-Nottingham corridor, where the Red1 stops more frequently!

And lets be serious, Premiere haven't really been that succesful. Red2 and Red4 bit the dust early on, Local17 (competes with My15 and Rainbow 4) is often seen running empty, deckers are being taken off Red8 because they're too big and this latest venutre could quite possibly prove catastrophic! Admitedly Red1 and Red5 are doing OK, but it will be interesting to see how Red5 competes with Skylink and improved Indigo for New Sawley customers.

 

[WillPS]

I think Red7 is doing pretty well. They've certainly grown it from what was a relatively neglected service under Barton/Notts+Derby/Dunn-Line/Veolia.

 

[ARedFlyer]

Luggage racks have been ordered and are on their way
First of all, it's 45 minutes vs 55 minutes. Premiere haven''t factored in roadworks on the A46 which are (and will continue to do so for some time) causing havoc and massive delays.

Secondly, say you've got your bags and get outside the terminal for, as an example 9:15. The next RedFlyer is at 10:00 and the next skylink is at 9:30, because of the frequency. RedFlyer will get you to Nottingham for 10:43, skylink for 10:25. It may be slower but you'll still get to Nottingham sooner.

I think you mean the A453 but there are two routes the 2nd route through Gotham etc the NCT Skylink used to take a lot of the time anyway! It's an extra 5 mins max. RedFlyer is never 45 minutes to get to the Airport. off peak it can do it in 27 minutes, on-peak 40, as per their time-table. The Trent Skylink is a full-hour from Friar Lane to The Airport. Who wants to spend an hour on a bus before or after a long flight? Plus their silly route has plenty of scope for delays, believe you me. (Uni Boulevard, Long Eaton, M1) The buses they are using don't exactly look comfortable either, and are likely to be packed full of Indigo customers too. Good luck getting on with your luggage!

That said Premiere are very amateurish in many parts of their service. For example I've just been to visit their sales office to get a Red Card (their sales office being a grotty portocabin at the back of their Bus Yard) I explained I wanted a Red Card Bus Pass I was looked at as if I was an alien from out of space. I couldn't have one without a photo, yes that's right you have to provide your own photo - WTF? So I have to upload one (no mention of size etc) to their website which looks like it's been made by a 12 year old using Microsoft Paint! They will then call me for payment - from what I've witnessed today I don't think the security of my credit card details will be a priority either.

These are the basics they need to be getting right. It doesn't cost much to be professional.

 

[WillPS]

It's not unusual to need to provide your own passport sized picture for a travel pass - you need to to get a Railcard at a station or a rail season ticket.

But yeah, if you're not going to have a decent office don't bother at all would be better advice. Their website is a joke, and even their travel one is a mess. Either get somebody professional to develop them a decent system *waves at Premiere* or just get a 1&1 template as TM Travel has (and looks perfectly OK).

 

[MCR247]

I think you mean the A453 but there are two routes the 2nd route through Gotham etc the NCT Skylink used to take a lot of the time anyway! It's an extra 5 mins max. RedFlyer is never 45 minutes to get to the Airport. off peak it can do it in 27 minutes, on-peak 40, as per their time-table. The Trent Skylink is a full-hour from Friar Lane to The Airport. Who wants to spend an hour on a bus before or after a long flight? Plus their silly route has plenty of scope for delays, believe you me. (Uni Boulevard, Long Eaton, M1) The buses they are using don't exactly look comfortable either, and are likely to be packed full of Indigo customers too. Good luck getting on with your luggage!

Looking at it on the surface, then your points are spot on. But if you look at it like this

The thing is, Premiere won't get NCTs revenue to and from Clifton, so I think Nottingham - Airport traffic will make a loss, as it would (and will) on Trent Barton. But I think Trent Bartons will make a profit on the whole because it:
- Provides the Loughborough - Long Eaton indigo
- Competes with Red5 from Long Eaton - Nottingham
- Faster journeys from Long Eaton - Nottingham
- Provides New Sawley with a more frequent service, competed with Red5

When you add those points together, it looks a lot better

If you looked at indigo only on the surface, it would no way be viable and you would never think a bus which takes 1h20 Nottingham - Derby would have a 20 minute frequency, it would be well loaded (always full from derby) and would run with 07 reg high-spec volvos.

 

[Ginga]

Don't know were your getting your info about Red 8 not doing very well from , as in May its getting extra journeys added and will also be running to Sherwood Business Park.

The Deckers were only on Red 8 as it was interworked with Two Schools Contracts on the Notts Bus Service 2 , only one Decker is now needed for that contract .

It should be getting some Branded buses. Enviro 300's .

By next week Red 5 should be all Deckers, the branding has come off the Red 5 Solar and Enviro 300 .

Also had the MCV VM1 Double Decker up from Go Ahead London so they could have a look at it , they are planning a order for some Brand new Deckers soon.

 

[tbone]

Looking at it on the surface, then your points are spot on. But if you look at it like this


When you add those points together, it looks a lot better

If you looked at indigo only on the surface, it would no way be viable and you would never think a bus which takes 1h20 Nottingham - Derby would have a 20 minute frequency, it would be well loaded (always full from derby) and would run with 07 reg high-spec volvos.

Having travelled from Derby-Nottingham on Indigo before (albeit in two stages, so I could take a look at Indigo connect before it was withdrawn), a lot of the traffic is passengers travelling to Chaddeston, Spondon, Borrowash and Draycott, as well as some to Long Eaton. By that point, all of the passengers have effectivley changed, and you get people from the previosly mentioned places and places such as Chilwell and Beeston heading to Nottingham. If anybody wants Derby-Nottingham, they'll get Red Arrow. Almost all of the route is heavily populated and this is what makes it successful

 

[MCR247]

Thats what I'm saying about skylink

 

[tbone]

Do you have a copy of the leaflet? Can you scan it and upload it here?

Attached, courtesy of Trent Barton for life on facebook

 

[bb21]

Attached, courtesy of Trent Barton for life on facebook

Blimey. They have gone into this with some heavy price promotions, haven't they?

 

[ashworth]

Does anyone actually use Premiere's Number 2 Service Hucknall - Brinsley/Eastwood? Even at peak times when I've seen them passing through Hucknall there has never been anyone on them!

 

[Jordeh]

Skylink now up and running as of yesterday. Saw this tweet from Trent Barton's Alex Hornby, any idea what he's referring to?

"Sad to see some desperation tactics by others today, but great to hear #skylink is going so well - proud of our #reallygoodteam" - https://twitter.com/#!/alextrentbarton/status/184281997336772608

Clearly the Red Flyer but any idea what it was specifically?

 

[WillPS]

Does anyone actually use Premiere's Number 2 Service Hucknall - Brinsley/Eastwood? Even at peak times when I've seen them passing through Hucknall there has never been anyone on them!

No it's a massive white elephant - I think it's NCC funded though.

Skylink now up and running as of yesterday. Saw this tweet from Trent Barton's Alex Hornby, any idea what he's referring to?

"Sad to see some desperation tactics by others today, but great to hear #skylink is going so well - proud of our #reallygoodteam" - https://twitter.com/#!/alextrentbarton/status/184281997336772608

Clearly the Red Flyer but any idea what it was specifically?

I'd be interested too - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LsIoDtwwHQ&t=3m41s ?

 

[trentside]

A glance at Premiere's twitter account suggests they've had people promoting the RedFlyer to customers waiting for Skylink. It appears someone has been questioning this approach (sadly, the persons account is protected) and Premiere's responses have been very direct, and actually verging on rude.

 

[ARedFlyer]

No idea what these tactics were. The Redflyer had ok loadings going to the Airport today not full by any means but not empty either. Going back the other way they face more of a struggle I feel. They've been given terminal 5 where the departures lounge is, quite a way from the arrivals lounge where there is blanket Skylink branding. I definitely get the impression EMA favour Skylink, but shouldn't they be impartial if it's not subsidised?

Also Skylink has been hit by several delays already according to their facebook page and has had to use diversions. The is reaffirming what I said earlier about the longer the route, the more scope their is for delays.

Skylink - good for Long Eaton, bad for the the Airport.

 

[tbone]

A glance at Premiere's twitter account suggests they've had people promoting the RedFlyer to customers waiting for Skylink. It appears someone has been questioning this approach (sadly, the persons account is protected) and Premiere's responses have been very direct, and actually verging on rude.

There have been accusations that members of Premiere staff have been telling people that Skylink Nottingham has finsished entirely and the only way to get to the airport is via RedFlyer. Premiere have denied this, saying their staff were telling customers that RedFlyer was the only direct service. I can't be sure but I think that that's what Alex Hornby was talking about.

Premiere really need to review their facebook/twitter use. If you tweet to or post on the Trent Barton live facebook or twitter sites, you will get a good responce- ie an explanation and often a reminder of the no quibble money back guarentee. Premiere on the other hand seem to simpy use it for promtion and delete negative comments. During the snow a few months ago, Trent BArton live twitter and facebook accounts were being updated by Alex Hornby, despite the fact he was on holiday in mainland Europe. Premiere's was offering no such updates, simply posting prootional messages about RedFlyer!

 

[Ginga]

A glance at Premiere's twitter account suggests they've had people promoting the RedFlyer to customers waiting for Skylink. It appears someone has been questioning this approach (sadly, the persons account is protected) and Premiere's responses have been very direct, and actually verging on rude.

On the subject of a Premiere driver telling people Skylink is stopping, most bus drivers don't have a clue whats going on they just Drive the buses. If it was a Red 9 Driver he may have been told by a NCT Skylink Driver it was stopping .They shared the same stop and most of the time got on.

You did not hear Hornby Bitching when he sent Stuart Booth( Brand Manager for Indigo) to Long Eaton Green pushing Lex at the stop!

Trent Barton Lives Twitter also had the A453 is blocked use Skylink to the Airport on.

 

[WillPS]

A glance at Premiere's twitter account suggests they've had people promoting the RedFlyer to customers waiting for Skylink. It appears someone has been questioning this approach (sadly, the persons account is protected) and Premiere's responses have been very direct, and actually verging on rude.

Premiere really need to review their facebook/twitter use. If you tweet to or post on the Trent Barton live facebook or twitter sites, you will get a good responce- ie an explanation and often a reminder of the no quibble money back guarentee. Premiere on the other hand seem to simpy use it for promtion and delete negative comments. During the snow a few months ago, Trent BArton live twitter and facebook accounts were being updated by Alex Hornby, despite the fact he was on holiday in mainland Europe. Premiere's was offering no such updates, simply posting prootional messages about RedFlyer!

Indeed whoever is behind these posts isn't doing a particularly brilliant job. I think it's the same guy who comes up with the brands and does all the promotions - the phrase jack of all trades and master of none springs to mind.

shouldn't they be impartial if it's not subsidised?

Manchester Airports Group (who own EMA) can act however they choose - they're not like a council who can't show favouritism, they can sell or deal usage and even exclusivity of a bus stop however serves them best.

Pure speculation - but it appears to me that TrentBarton approached EMA, offered to take on the Skylink service commercially, so it was a done deal by the time Premiere turned up it was already a done deal that the former NCT service stops were taken by TB. The manner in which this was done what leads me to question the "gentleman's agreement" between NCT and TrentBarton - which is a very delicate situation especially on routes around Arnold and Beeston.


Anybody know what's going to happen to the OmniCitys?

 

[ARedFlyer]

I'm declaring an early victory for Red Flyer. Workers have stayed loyal to the quick route providing a good base to work from. Feedback has been positive. Skylink have been dogged with delays and quite a few complaints. Even at this early stage, I can see some amendments coming front Trent. I know for a fact they have an alternative route which they were going to consider after gauging feedback on their starter route, I don't know what the 2nd route is though.

 

[tbone]

Anybody know what's going to happen to the OmniCitys?

Rumoured to be heading onto medilink

The lastest saga/argument seems to be accusations that Trent Barton completely covered up a Red5 bus stop info panel with a skylink one. Whilst there is a photo of this, it has been suggested that it may have been Premiere setting up TB (neither argument has been proven).

However, the real problem is that Premiere's business development manager posted the picture to Alex Hornby's twitter page, saying "this is the tactics that your company doesn't condone". This was responded to by Mr. Hornby with "Twitter not the place to discuss. Responce to this sent to L.A. & VOSA of this and also counts of unprofessional behaviour by your company"

Looks like things could get interesting...

 

[WillPS]

I really don't think VOSA/LA would treat this as unprofessional - it was a pretty fair response to Mr Hornby's accusation of foul practice. I expect they'd be more concerned by the covered infopanel.

I expect there'll be quite a lot of this mudslinging - as I said this isn't how Trent has historically done business, and while Premiere haven't much of a reputation to lose, Trent has traded on that reputation for years so this can only really harm them.

 

[Jordeh]

I' declaring an early victory tfor Red Flyer. Workers have stayed loyal to the quick route providing a good base to work from. Feedback has been positive. Skylink have been dogged with delays and quite a few complaints. Even at this early stage, I can see some amendments coming front Trent. I know for a fact they have an alternative route which they were going to consider after gauging feedback on their starter route, I don't know what the 2nd route is though.

Whilst that does sound positive for the Red Flyer, I don't see TB amending the route if it continues to prove to be popular. After all it's customer base isn't entirely reliant on Nottingham > EMA customers as it not only provides a fast link along the Nottingham to Long Eaton corridor but provides good access to the airport for the likes of Castle Donington, Long Eaton and Beeston where there is presumably many airport employees. After all they successfully ran the Indigo to EMA (and Loughborough also lets not forget!) for many years no problem and expanded it 24/7 running last year so there's clearly still a lot in it for Trent Barton.

If the Red Flyer is popular with airport workers and regulars and ends up picking up a few student in Clifton it could also be a success. This could well turn into an excellent example of privatisation and competition success. Previously subsidised route ran by two independent operators with a variety of routes, good frequency, better comfort and cheap prices for customers as well as a choice. Everybody wins, possibly.

 

[Ginga]

If Hornby goes to Vosa he will get a kicking for the Lex Services he failed to run and it was on more that one day .

Beverly Bell would rip them to pieces, look at what happened to First Mancester. I can just see Hornby sat at the hearing like a naughty Schoolboy.

Also in the past month his Welglade company has had two buses go up in flames, The Kinch 9 Dart closed the A60 during Rush Hour.

Remember Trent Barton are on a yellow card with Vosa from before. Also it was Trent Barton drivers that have been fined for Driving on the wrong side of the road on Friar Lane.
http://busstopbritain.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/bus-drivers-fined-for-using-wrong-side.html

I got the photo of the covered Red 5 timetable at Long Eaton Green, it was not a set up in anyway .

Its not the first time A Premiere Timetable has gone missing its happened on Derby Road , Friar Lane and Around Hucknall Estates.

A Red 8 Driver got a photo of them doing it on a Hucknall Estate when they were changing the Connect ones ! Trent Barton vehicle and all.

I

 

[WillPS]

I sort of wonder what the end-game is for Premiere though - do they intend to remain the third independent in Nottingham long term? Is their plan to challenge Trent on all their profitable routes one-by-one?

Or is the plan to become a neat little parcel to be snapped up by one of the big boys?

My distinct impression when this all kicked off a few years ago was that Premiere were trying to force Trent to buy them out (as they did with Delta, and NCT did with Omnibus in the 90s), especially since Steve Greaves has connections to Wellglade (or did I make that up?).

 

[ARedFlyer]

So how many passengers would RedFlyer have to be carrying per journey to make a profit?

Someone asked about the illustrative cost about running a bus route earlier in the thread. I've tried to work it out (this is open to correction as I'm effectively guessing).

Broad Marsh to EMA 13 miles @ £1.40 per litre - Those coaches I guess will do around 8 MPG so that works out about £10 per journey in Fuel. The you have the driver hourly wage we'll say £7 an hour. Then we have insurance/maintenance/coach rental costs - say £5 per hour (this gives £840 per week for this route alone which should be enough to cover anything else like VOSA payments etc).

So we have an hour/single journey running cost totalling £22, so you'd need 11+ passengers (paying £2 each) per journey to make it profitable. Doable I suppose - but not much profit unless you get big, regular numbers which would seem unlikely.

 

[martinsh]

So how many passengers would RedFlyer have to be carrying per journey to make a profit?

Someone asked about the illustrative cost about running a bus route earlier in the thread. I've tried to work it out (this is open to correction as I'm effectively guessing).

Broad Marsh to EMA 13 miles @ £1.40 per litre - Those coaches I guess will do around 8 MPG so that works out about £10 per journey in Fuel. The you have the driver hourly wage we'll say £7 an hour. Then we have insurance/maintenance/coach rental costs - say £5 per hour (this gives £840 per week for this route alone which should be enough to cover anything else like VOSA payments etc).

So we have an hour/single journey running cost totalling £22, so you'd need 11+ passengers (paying £2 each) per journey to make it profitable. Doable I suppose - but not much profit unless you get big, regular numbers which would seem unlikely.

Don't forget some of that fuel cost will be claimed back through BSOG