Nottingham 'Bus War'

[bunnahabhain]

I can think of several more depressing places than Derby!

Skegness for starters!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Skegness for starters!

Loughborough

Anyway, getting back on topic, it's still very early days for Citylink. The amount of times I've seen new services registered (or even existing services revised) and then cancelled (or revised again) within a few months, without giving the service time to develop. The ironic thing is, it isn't unusual for the service to start getting busier during the final 56 days!

 

[howittpie]

It has been confirmed on the Yourbus facebook page that the Citylink will call at The Nursery Man and Bramcote Leisure Centre following requests by the locals led by the MP for the area.

 

[Deerfold]

It has been confirmed on the Yourbus facebook page that the Citylink will call at The Nursery Man and Bramcote Leisure Centre following requests by the locals led by the MP for the area.

So more potential passengers but a potential speed loss on the route. The Nursery Man used to be a stop I used occasionally on the Transpeak years ago - but then I was transferring from another Barton service there. Do they say when they'll start calling there?

 

[pjnathanail]

So more potential passengers but a potential speed loss on the route. The Nursery Man used to be a stop I used occasionally on the Transpeak years ago - but then I was transferring from another Barton service there. Do they say when they'll start calling there?

From this Sunday, don't know how they have managed that this quickly!
There shouldn't be too much speed loss as both stops are on the route with no laybyes, but I suppose it ultimately depends on passenger numbers.

 

[Deerfold]

From this Sunday, don't know how they have managed that this quickly!
There shouldn't be too much speed loss as both stops are on the route with no laybyes, but I suppose it ultimately depends on passenger numbers.

Nothing recorded as received by the traffic commissioner yet - hope they're playing by the rules!

 

[pjnathanail]

Nothing recorded as received by the traffic commissioner yet - hope they're playing by the rules!

Five days to go then, they will have to hurry up!

 

[ALIEN14247]

AOT8 could be fun.....

 

[Hyphen]

Driving down the A52 yesterday from Bramcote to the M1 around 16:45 I passed 2x RA, 2x CL (interleaved).

Both RAs were very well filled and busy, the first CL had (from what I saw) no more than 5 onboard, the second I didn't see a single face.

I'd almost be tempted to give the CL a try, but I don't necessarily fancy 30-40 minutes on slightly upgraded service bus seating.

 

[MCR247]

I think the bus v coach is a bigger problem than anyone thought! I've heard so many people say "but it doesn't look as comfortable!"

 

[tbone]

I think even Trent Barton are shocked at how little effect Citylink has had, they moved four Volvo/Wrightbus Eclipse spares to Derby as they have high backed leather seats so are the closest they can get to coach comfort, but two have been moved on, increasing the likelihood of one of the solars putting in an appearance.

 

[radamfi]

When will operators ever learn that competition for local buses is pointless? And I'm not just talking about Nottingham. In almost all cases, sooner or later, the incumbent wins the bus war and the new service is withdrawn with both companies losing money. If the competitor is a big company the losses can be worse with the incumbent then competing on the other companies' routes as retaliation.

 

[Deerfold]

When will operators ever learn that competition for local buses is pointless? And I'm not just talking about Nottingham. In almost all cases, sooner or later, the incumbent wins the bus war and the new service is withdrawn with both companies losing money. If the competitor is a big company the losses can be worse with the incumbent then competing on the other companies' routes as retaliation.

Well, sometimes if the new company is part of one of the major groups the company that started out in the area ends up going under.

And in some areas it's not that simple.

In Halifax, First have lost out in a big way on many routes - they no longer run commercial routes on several services where competitors ran better services than they did (see Halifax services 28A, 34, 36 now Centrebus who bought out Halifax Joint Committee where HJC provided double the level of service that First did). TJ Walsh seem to manage quite well on running frequent minibus services mirroring key routes to nearby towns and areas of Halifax (300, 400, 500, 555, 600, 700) and has down for 15 years or so. First seem to be losing out on contracted routes too - the village I grew up in which in 1994 had 7 First routes serving it (528, 556, 560, 561, 562, 564, 566) now has 1 First route (with some subsidised journeys proved by Centrebus) and 6 other routes provided by either Centrebus/K-Line and TJ Walsh (528, 557, 560, 900, 901, E7).

I'd agree it can be a massive waste of resources, but whilst there are examples where the newcomer does more than meet their costs there'll be companies willing to try it.

 

[radamfi]

I would admit I have been surprised that incursions by Stagecoach into First or Arriva territory over the last few years (e.g. Sheffield, Liverpool and North Devon) have led to no retaliation by First/Arriva into native Stagecoach areas. I presume they have assumed there would be no point as Stagecoach would then compete even stronger.

Why have HJC survived in Halifax? Surely First could have retaliated with brand new buses and low fares?

 

[Deerfold]

Why have HJC survived in Halifax? Surely First could have retaliated with brand new buses and low fares?

Initially they ran heritage buses with conductors which I don't think First saw as serious competition. Then when they started running services every 15 minutes on routes First ran every 30, First must have thought they weren't worth running every 15 minutes and ended up deregistering them. They fought much harder against TJW who were competing against First's key routes. Not all of HJC's routes were a success. They tried an every 15 minute service to the hospital as an extension of another route , but they were running along a road with 6 bph to Huddersfield (the most direct way they now run), 5 TJW to Elland, 1 Arriva to Wakefield, plus half a dozen assorted 1bph routes and they dropped that after a few months.

More recently First Halifax seem to have just given up in the face of competition. When Centrebus won the contracts for Sunday and evening operation of the 528 to Rochdale and decided to try and run it during the day too First just degregistered theirs. When Centrebus won the 574 to Booth/Midgley, First deregistered their similar commercial 573 service (so most places went from 2 buses an hour to 1 with the less direct service surviving). First then complained to the local paper about "having" to lay off drivers.

 

[Mugby]

Noticed today, the TrentBarton Plaxton/Dart 'Bargain Bus' or 99p bus (whatever) is now in Looms's scrapyard at Spondon.

 

[WillPS]

Noticed today, the TrentBarton Plaxton/Dart 'Bargain Bus' or 99p bus (whatever) is now in Looms's scrapyard at Spondon.

One of them is in service with Littles who run the W3 in Nottingham.

 

[mainframe444]

I think even Trent Barton are shocked at how little effect Citylink has had, they moved four Volvo/Wrightbus Eclipse spares to Derby as they have high backed leather seats so are the closest they can get to coach comfort, but two have been moved on, increasing the likelihood of one of the solars putting in an appearance.

741 and 751 were moved over to cover for the coaches while they were deep cleaned and tidied up ready for the competition.

 

[tbone]

741 and 751 were moved over to cover for the coaches while they were deep cleaned and tidied up ready for the competition.

B

Ah right, I thought at least one may be longer term seeing as we lost 264 without replacement

So then Mr Mainframe, 638 and 639 for Kinch9 then??

 

[ALIEN14247]

I'll say it again as people may have missed it......
AOT 8 could be fun.

 

[Deerfold]

I'll say it again as people may have missed it......
AOT 8 could be fun.

I saw it. I still have no idea what it means.

 

[trentside]

Yes, sharing publicly available information is always useful.

PB1093955/10 - AOT COACHES NOTTINGHAM LLP T/A AOT COACHES, 37A DUNVEGAN DRIVE, RISE PARK, NOTTINGHAM, NG5 5DX
Registration Accepted
Starting Point: BEAUVALE IN HUCKNELL
Finish Point: MILTON STREET NOTTINGHAM
Via:
Service Number: 8AOT
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 22-APR-2013
Other Details: Monday-Saturday Half hourly at peak AM & PM Hourly thereafter

So it would appear that AOT are going to try out the former Red8!

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, sharing publicly available information is always useful.



So it would appear that AOT are going to try out the former Red8!

Yes, now I've some context, that could be interesting.

I take it VOSA are using the cheap staff again. Hucknell?!

 

[RJ]

I was surprised to see one of Kinch's Red9 branded Excels turn up on the internal university shuttle this morning - seems to have disappeared now! First time I've been on one of those things since the type with withdrawn from London service around 10 years ago.

 

[tbone]

I was surprised to see one of Kinch's Red9 branded Excels turn up on the internal university shuttle this morning - seems to have disappeared now! First time I've been on one of those things since the type with withdrawn from London service around 10 years ago.

There are now four excels branded for the 9 for a PVR of 3, this is either because one of the original three is particularly unreliable or because one of the originals isn't DDA compliant which prevents it calling at certain stops in Nottingham. It could be, by some miracle, that all four were available for service and one was the only spare vehicle available to run the service

 

[34D]

or because one of the originals isn't DDA compliant which prevents it calling at certain stops in Nottingham.

For a non-local, could you explain this bit, please?

 

[tbone]

For a non-local, could you explain this bit, please?

There's a bus quality partnership in place in Nottingham, part of which means non DDA vehicles cannot stop at any stop in the city centre other than at Victoria or Boradmarsh bus stations. The exceptions are Red Arrow and Club Class as try ran prior to the signing. This prevents non DDA vehicles from stopping at Nottingham train station.

 

[Jordy]

May be related but I saw a Kinchbus 'Sprint' Solo on the 9 in Nottingham yesterday.

 

[pjnathanail]

There's a bus quality partnership in place in Nottingham, part of which means non DDA vehicles cannot stop at any stop in the city centre other than at Victoria or Boradmarsh bus stations. The exceptions are Red Arrow and Club Class as try ran prior to the signing. This prevents non DDA vehicles from stopping at Nottingham train station.

This is true, but RA and CC only get away with it because there is a parralel DDA compliant service (IGO/i4) that also serves all the stops. Don't know how they get away with Parliament Street on the RA though!

 

[tbone]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattburley0/8529163880/in/photostream

638 is the first of three solars heading for the Kinchbus 9, 634 and 639 are expected to join it. Certainly a better offering than on the Red9!