ALIEN14247
Member
- Joined
- 18 Jan 2013
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- 30
Tomorrow (Thursday) and that should just about be the end of it.
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Nottingham 'Bus War'
- Thread starter trentside
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RailUK Forums
mainframe444
Member
To echo what has been said on here, it is debatable just what business there is to sell.
In the pre-deregulation days, all operators held a licence to operate a service, and no-one else could operate that service.
So, when a company was bought, there was guaranteed work and these licences had a value to them.
Nowadays, you may buy a company, but you do not buy the commercial stage carriage work, as there is nothing to stop another operator registering that route. When Midland General took over Felix's routes, for instance, they really only bought 6 buses - there was nothing to stop another operator registering that work.
So, none of Premiere's service work can really be said to have any real sale value.
The contract stage carriage work they do for Notts CC will probably be worthless soon, I hear a rumour that Notts CC have asked other operators to put in sealed bids for Premiere's work by Friday.....
It's also no secret that many of the vehicles in the fleet are leased, these cannot then be counted as assets......
I also believe that the garage site is leased, not owned......
And the alleged £4m debt on a £9m turnover......
What therefore is there to actually sell?????
In the pre-deregulation days, all operators held a licence to operate a service, and no-one else could operate that service.
So, when a company was bought, there was guaranteed work and these licences had a value to them.
Nowadays, you may buy a company, but you do not buy the commercial stage carriage work, as there is nothing to stop another operator registering that route. When Midland General took over Felix's routes, for instance, they really only bought 6 buses - there was nothing to stop another operator registering that work.
So, none of Premiere's service work can really be said to have any real sale value.
The contract stage carriage work they do for Notts CC will probably be worthless soon, I hear a rumour that Notts CC have asked other operators to put in sealed bids for Premiere's work by Friday.....
It's also no secret that many of the vehicles in the fleet are leased, these cannot then be counted as assets......
I also believe that the garage site is leased, not owned......
And the alleged £4m debt on a £9m turnover......
What therefore is there to actually sell?????
Qwerty133
Established Member
Not good figures really. however which busses are owned and which are leased? When buying a bus company you get a supply of qualified PSV drivers. But wasn't the TB takeover of Felix mainly so that TB had all of the blackcat
tbone
Member
You say that but I've heard that the former Felix black cat will transfer to Notts and Derby and be renumbered 11 using Notts and Derby branded vehicles.
mainframe444
Member
Trent don't have all the Black Cat, Midland General operate the ex Felix journeys.
The point I was making was that just because Felix deregistered their timetables and sold the buses to MGO, there was nothing to stop any operator registering the same timetable, so the service work cannot be said to have any value.
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Lewisham2221
Established Member
Existing (loyal?) customer base?
Existing fleet, depot, staff and prodcedures?
Even if a larger company were to take this work on, there's value in having the existing operation already running for phased merging into the larger company's operation rather than the larger company having to do all the registration paperwork, publicity, find a suitable site to operate from, recruit additional staff and locate a sufficient quantity of suitable vehicles. Much easier to buy an existing operation and gradually integrate them with your operations.
Existing fleet, depot, staff and prodcedures?
Even if a larger company were to take this work on, there's value in having the existing operation already running for phased merging into the larger company's operation rather than the larger company having to do all the registration paperwork, publicity, find a suitable site to operate from, recruit additional staff and locate a sufficient quantity of suitable vehicles. Much easier to buy an existing operation and gradually integrate them with your operations.
WillPS
Established Member
"Notice of Intention to appoint an Administrator" isn't the same as Administration - the firm is not in Administration at the present time, it's in a kind of stasis pending Administration. It appears they are trying to arrange a pre-pack sale (where a buyer is found, so goes straight out of administration when it actually enters administration).
Qwerty133
Established Member
TB, Midland general are both wellglade company's and midland general were used to buy Felix as there ex owner said in his will that the business couldn't be sold to TB
WillPS
Established Member
Not if the existing operation is making thumping losses and comes with a heap of debt. Would probably be better to buy/arrange to lease the fleet and yard (if either are necessary), register the routes and run for free in the meantime.
tbone
Member
I've heard talks were held tonight to decide whether or not to shut up shop. No official word as yet but I've heard lots to suggest they won't be running tomorrow.
Jordy
Established Member
Shame if they are to disappear, the Red9 has been very useful to me, as much as I can see exactly why they're going into administration. Still a shame.
The following has been placed on the BBC Nottingham website this evening:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-21190792
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-21190792
Looks like their buses have stopped running?? You'd think they'd have to keep to some kind of time commitment.
Ironically, I saw one of their Red 5's yesterday jammed pack with no standing room.
Jordy the Red 9 was a brilliant service, not sure what the loading's were like though?
Massive open goal for YourBus to take the profitable Red 5 route. Those Skylinks are going to be bloody packed now.
Bad news for the people of Bingham, Keyworth & Radcliffe on Trent. Less choice = higher fares and more waiting in the cold.
EDIT
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Trent Barton LIVE Extra buses have been registered with the Traffic Commissioner in order to provide enough seats in Long Eaton, Radcliffe and a replacement Nottingham-Loughborough route. We await confirmation re a start date.
That's from their facebook. They are replacing Red 9 !! And Red 5's??
Ironically, I saw one of their Red 5's yesterday jammed pack with no standing room.
Jordy the Red 9 was a brilliant service, not sure what the loading's were like though?
Massive open goal for YourBus to take the profitable Red 5 route. Those Skylinks are going to be bloody packed now.
Bad news for the people of Bingham, Keyworth & Radcliffe on Trent. Less choice = higher fares and more waiting in the cold.
EDIT
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Trent Barton LIVE Extra buses have been registered with the Traffic Commissioner in order to provide enough seats in Long Eaton, Radcliffe and a replacement Nottingham-Loughborough route. We await confirmation re a start date.
That's from their facebook. They are replacing Red 9 !! And Red 5's??
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TB are offering to replace any Premiere tickets held with their TB equivalents -
https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/Premiertickets
https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/Premiertickets
Yet.
I have heard on the old Grape Vine that Trent have been thinking about absorbing the old Felix run from Midland General. And having the Black Cat all under one banner. Same livery and everything.
Sure the Mr Frost said in his will Felix can never be owned by Trent. But he didn't say anything about it being owned by Midland General, or Trent subsiquently absorbing it from MG.
Yeah its a devious way around it for Trent, but its a nice and legal loophole in the will.
Jordy
Established Member
Seems to be business as usual in Nottingham today, Red 1, Red 5, Red 9 and even the 50 all seen.
Seems Kinch are to cover the 9: Trent Barton LIVE See above - Stuart. A replacement route has been registered by Kinchbus - start date to be confirmed with the traffic commissioner. (From Facebook)
Seems Kinch are to cover the 9: Trent Barton LIVE See above - Stuart. A replacement route has been registered by Kinchbus - start date to be confirmed with the traffic commissioner. (From Facebook)
Lewisham2221
Established Member
It'll be a shame if they do disappear completely. The business itself would probably be viable under another owner, it's more than likely that the rapid expansion, requiring loans/credit/leased vehicles that has caused a lot of the problem. As stated in a recent post on the Omnibuses blog, a business could be potentially profitable but if the cashflow is screwed up then you don't stand a chance. If a buyer could step in and sort the cashflow out (assuming that is part of the problem) then the business could well be profitable.
mainframe444
Member
The Midland General Black Cat will cease to operate in march and be replaced by a Notts and Derby service 11.
Similar timetable, but no empty journeys to and from Stanley/West Hallam.
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richardderby
Member
- Joined
- 20 Nov 2010
- Messages
- 415
http://www.derbysbus.info/times/timetables/CLKY_130218.pdf
new citylink timetable now on the derbyshire website, lets see what Yourbus are going to charge for the fares, hopefully somewhat less then Redarrow..
new citylink timetable now on the derbyshire website, lets see what Yourbus are going to charge for the fares, hopefully somewhat less then Redarrow..
That's quite impressive - starts about 35 minutes after TB, same service level, runs *later* on Sunday evenings.
Recipe for chaos on the night journeys with them leaving at exactly the same time.
And the downside of competition - wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a joint ticket allowing you to go Nottingham - Derby every 5 minutes - pretty much on-demand transport.
Its interesting to see that they're now not running empty. To/from Stanley.
I never understood why they carried that on, despite the buses being based in Derby. Its just like throwing money away.
They should have numberd the new service No. 12. It was the 12 before it became the BC
mainframe444
Member
There is already a service 12 in ilkeston, run under contract by N &D, from ilkeston to Cotmanhay.
B
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anthony263
Established Member
We have see something happen with 2travel based in South wales who spent all the money they raised when they were floated on the AIM to purchase a lot of used buses mostly from Stagecoach to launch competitive routes against other operators including Cardiff Bus.
Of course Cardiff Bus ended up using dirty tricks against 2travel which is one of the factors that put 2travel out of business.
Of csome of the directors of 2Travel are now running South Wales Transport (Neath) who are doing very well
CallySleeper
Established Member
Kinchbus to run to Loughborough from tomorrow (26th Jan): https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/userfiles/Kinchbus 9 poster landscape.pdf
Premiere Buses died, finally at 5pm this afternoon.
Meanwhile, it gets better:
Premiere Buses died, finally at 5pm this afternoon.
Meanwhile, it gets better:
Qwerty133
Established Member
Will vosa have time to accept the Kinch registration by tomorrow morning. If not can they operate the service.
I'm assuming they have accepted it (even if it may not yet show up on searches) if TB are advertising it.
CallySleeper
Established Member
Fair point.
Also, all of Stagecoach EM's services appeared to be cancelled with vosa. Change in legal name for the new financial year? Can't get too excited just yet
Fair point.
Also, all of Stagecoach EM's services appeared to be cancelled with vosa. Change in legal name for the new financial year? Can't get too excited just yet
Could be, or a major reorganisation - there's certainly plenty of time for reregistration before 01/04/2013.
Lewisham2221
Established Member
I would assume that Kinch/TB and the relevant local authority(s) have been in contact with the Office of the Traffic Commissioner (note, not VOSA) this afternoon to ensure that the service can run with immediate effect. In previous situations where services have been replaced at short notice it isn't unusal to see a back-dated short notice registration appear on the VOSA website/Notices and Proceedings some weeks after the replacement service started operating.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed. There is no fee to cancel a service and the fee to register a new service is the same as the fee to ammend an existing service, so if many service changes are being brought in it is often easier to cancel the lot an re-register them all. Makes certain that everything is up to date and you haven't missed anything then!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed. There is no fee to cancel a service and the fee to register a new service is the same as the fee to ammend an existing service, so if many service changes are being brought in it is often easier to cancel the lot an re-register them all. Makes certain that everything is up to date and you haven't missed anything then!
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