Norwich-Liverpool

[northwichcat]

The plan was for Northern to send some 156s to EMT to go onto routes like Skegness/Mansfield/ Ivanhoe, releasing 158s for the Norwich - Liverpool. I think this was a really good idea, I just hope there are more 156s than the initial four suggested, as even a four coach train will struggle with loads like Liverpool - Manchester...

I doubt that EMT will get more than 4x156s. Where would extra 156s come from? I'm sure Northern would have no problems finding good use for the 4x156s they will lose even after the arrival of extra 150s.
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It should also be pointed out that a lot of the route is two trains an hour, with the TPE service from Liverpool to Manchester, the TPE service from Manchester to Sheffield, the NR service from Sheffield to Nottingham, the EMT service from Nottingham to Grantham, various ECML services from Grantham to Peterborough, the XC service from Peterborough to Ely and the NXEA service from Ely to Norwich.

Given the need to fit into various services its not quite half hourly (e.g. Sheffield to Manchester is half hourly, Manchester to Sheffield is 20/40 minutes), but there are alternative routes paralleling the Liverpool - Norwich.

The fact that most long distance Central routes got split but Liverpool-Norwich didn't suggests that there is more demand for a Liverpool-Norwich service over Crewe-Skegness or Liverpool-Stansted Airport.

A properly consistent timetable would be difficult unless you change routes, which would then obviously disadvantage people. A fully consistent timetable would be something like:
* Liverpool-Norwich
* Liverpool-Cleethorphes 30 minutes after Liverpool-Norwich
* Manchester Airport to York (and beyond) every 15 minutes

Then in that instance Liverpool loses direct connections with Huddersfield, Leeds and York and Sheffield and Doncaster lose their Manchester Airport link, as well as the issue about the Hull TPE service.

 

[WillPS]

Whilst I agree Northern are in need of units, I think there is a strong case for them loosing all of their relatively small fleet of 156s, in at least part-exchange for the 158s they lost to ScotRail.

Taking everything a step further, I think their 158s run on a lot of services which should be run by 150s, and a bit of swapping with FGW and ATW could take place, but that's wildly off-topic and of course isn't going to happen as it fundamentally makes sense.

 

[Zoe]

I think their 158s run on a lot of services which should be run by 150s

FGW went the opposite way at the start of the franchise with some regional services that were previously run by 158s changing to 150s and services previously run by the 150s going over to pacer operation.

 

[WillPS]

FGW went the opposite way at the start of the franchise with some regional services that were previously run by 158s changing to 150s and services previously run by the 150s going over to pacer operation.

Indeed, hence why I'd like to see them relieved by Northern 158s, some of which are diagrammed to work all-shacks all day.

Trouble was, the reason they're there in the first place is because Yorkshire Forward paid for them.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I doubt that EMT will get more than 4x156s. Where would extra 156s come from? I'm sure Northern would have no problems finding good use for the 4x156s they will lose even after the arrival of extra 150s.

My only hope in the long term is that Scotrail might release some 156. A2B should have released some 158s into the system, and there is ongoing aspirations to electrify the gaps in the southern half of suburban Glasgow (like East Kilbride).

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst I agree Northern are in need of units, I think there is a strong case for them loosing all of their relatively small fleet of 156s, in at least part-exchange for the 158s they lost to ScotRail.

Do you mean 155s, which Northern have 7 of? Northern have 46 156s units, which is not a small number, only small compared to the number of 142s they have.

 

[tbtc]

I doubt that EMT will get more than 4x156s. Where would extra 156s come from? I'm sure Northern would have no problems finding good use for the 4x156s they will lose even after the arrival of extra 150s

As Jamesontheroad suggests, there will be some 156s freed up with electrification over the next few years, both in the Glasgow area (Whifflet, EK etc) and the Lancashire Triangle (Manchester Airport - Liverpool, Liverpool - Blackpool etc).

 

[northwichcat]

As Jamesontheroad suggests, there will be some 156s freed up with electrification over the next few years, both in the Glasgow area (Whifflet, EK etc) and the Lancashire Triangle (Manchester Airport - Liverpool, Liverpool - Blackpool etc).

DfT are proposing no new EMU orders that will go to the North West with the exception of some for the Scottish services. It could well be 2019 when any cascaded EMUs arrive directly or indirectly from Thameslink and Northern (or their successor) will have to replace around 100 Pacers by then under DDA. Also don't forget that the cascaded EMUs are instead of a new DMU order for extra capacity for the North of England.

 

[WillPS]

Do you mean 155s, which Northern have 7 of? Northern have 46 156s units, which is not a small number, only small compared to the number of 142s they have.

You're right, I was confusing my SuperSprinters.

 

[tbtc]

DfT are proposing no new EMU orders that will go to the North West with the exception of some for the Scottish services. It could well be 2019 when any cascaded EMUs arrive directly or indirectly from Thameslink and Northern (or their successor) will have to replace around 100 Pacers by then under DDA. Also don't forget that the cascaded EMUs are instead of a new DMU order for extra capacity for the North of England.

Regardless of whether the EMUs are shiny modern ones or older cascaded ones, they will be new to the area and they will free up 156s on a few routes. Not enough to replace Pacers (and 156s would be wasted on a lot of Pacer routes anyway), but enough to replace 158s on "middle distance" routes elsewhere

 

[northwichcat]

Regardless of whether the EMUs are shiny modern ones or older cascaded ones, they will be new to the area and they will free up 156s on a few routes. Not enough to replace Pacers (and 156s would be wasted on a lot of Pacer routes anyway), but enough to replace 158s on "middle distance" routes elsewhere

EMT themselves have said they require 4x 2 car units so that all their 158s are normally used on Liverpool-Norwich so they won't need more 156s to cascade 158s. I appreciate they need to replace the single 153 diagrams with 2 car diagrams but giving them 156s to do that would see them used on shorter routes than they are currently with Northern.

 

[WillPS]

EMT themselves have said they require 4x 2 car units so that all their 158s are normally used on Liverpool-Norwich so they won't need more 156s to cascade 158s. I appreciate they need to replace the single 153 diagrams with 2 car diagrams but giving them 156s to do that would see them used on shorter routes than they are currently with Northern.

Not quite true I don't think; they have 25 2-car 158s. Liverpool-Norwich is a 5 hour journey at 1tph, so that makes 10 on the service, plus an extra one which has a long break in Norwich. The Nottingham - Liverpool stretch, which they intend to double up, is around 2.5 hours, so that means a further 5 units are needed to double all services.

Two of these are, at present, doubled already, so the 4x 156s will allow 3 further 158s to move off Route 3/4 and on to Liverpool - Norwich.

11 + 5 = 16, so there will still be 9 remaining 158s.

At present, a 158 comes off Liverpool - Norwich (from Liverpool) then runs a few Matlock and Crewe services, as a further example of where 158s will still see non-Route 2 usage.

 

[TheBigD]

Not quite true I don't think; they have 25 2-car 158s. Liverpool-Norwich is a 5 hour journey at 1tph, so that makes 10 on the service, plus an extra one which has a long break in Norwich. The Nottingham - Liverpool stretch, which they intend to double up, is around 2.5 hours, so that means a further 5 units are needed to double all services.

Two of these are, at present, doubled already, so the 4x 156s will allow 3 further 158s to move off Route 3/4 and on to Liverpool - Norwich.

11 + 5 = 16, so there will still be 9 remaining 158s.

At present, a 158 comes off Liverpool - Norwich (from Liverpool) then runs a few Matlock and Crewe services, as a further example of where 158s will still see non-Route 2 usage.

Liverpool-Norwich requires 12 units. To double them up between Liverpool and Notts requires a further 6 with 15-20 minute layovers at Notts.

 

[WillPS]

Not too far off for an on-the-spot guesstimate

Still leaves 7 158s for use away from Liverpool-Norwich.

 

[TheBigD]

Not too far off for an on-the-spot guesstimate

Still leaves 7 158s for use away from Liverpool-Norwich.

EMT currently require 22 out of 25 class 158's Monday to friday.

 

[WillPS]

Right, 8 of which are not on Liverpool - Norwich at present?

I didnt realise there was as many as 3 spare!!

 

[TheBigD]

Right, 8 of which are not on Liverpool - Norwich at present?

I didnt realise there was as many as 3 spare!!

They're not spare. They're on maintenance, repairs etc.

 

[tbtc]

To double them up between Liverpool and Notts

I wonder whether the effect of the longer trains will attract more passengers (if I know the EMT service to Manchester is four car, but the TPE service will be two or three then I know which one I'd take), meaning there is potential for five coach working north of Nottingham in the longer term?

 

[northwichcat]

Not quite true I don't think; they have 25 2-car 158s. Liverpool-Norwich is a 5 hour journey at 1tph, so that makes 10 on the service, plus an extra one which has a long break in Norwich. The Nottingham - Liverpool stretch, which they intend to double up, is around 2.5 hours, so that means a further 5 units are needed to double all services.

Two of these are, at present, doubled already, so the 4x 156s will allow 3 further 158s to move off Route 3/4 and on to Liverpool - Norwich.

11 + 5 = 16, so there will still be 9 remaining 158s.

On checking on what I said before. EMT actually said early on in the franchise that 158s would be painted in Express livery as they would be used on Liverpool-Norwich and then later on said that the 4x156s, together with the completition of the 158 refurbishment program would mean all Liverpool-Norwich services would be 4 car 158 between Liverpool and Norwich.

Not being in the East Midlands I put the two together and assumed that only 4x158s were used on other routes.

However, after what you've said about them only needing 3x156s to make sure that all Liverpool-Nottingham services are 4 car, then why is that EMT are getting 4x156s? Are they planning to make the busiest Liverpool-Norwich diagram 4 car all the way or 6 car between Nottingham and Liverpool? If not why aren't they getting 3x156s and then extra 153s which can be used for doubling up on routes like Crewe-Derby where people expect 2 cars not 1.
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I wonder whether the effect of the longer trains will attract more passengers (if I know the EMT service to Manchester is four car, but the TPE service will be two or three then I know which one I'd take), meaning there is potential for five coach working north of Nottingham in the longer term?

CT used 5 car workings in the form of a 3 car 170 being attached to a 2 car 170. Of course, a 170 has less seats than a 158.

Also EMT have used 7 car 222s on Liverpool-Norwich on Grand National days.

 

[swt_passenger]

... It could well be 2019 when any cascaded EMUs arrive directly or indirectly from Thameslink...

It shouldn't be anything like 2019. The order is for delivery to Thameslink from late 2012 onwards. The first deliveries will probably release the loaned 377/5s back to SN, and further deliveries will release 319s.

NW electrification is due by 2013, but Paddington suburban services much later - so the 319 cascade should head for the NW first, well before 2019.

 

[northwichcat]

It shouldn't be anything like 2019. The order is for delivery to Thameslink from late 2012 onwards. The first deliveries will probably release the loaned 377/5s back to SN, and further deliveries will release 319s.

NW electrification is due by 2013, but Paddington suburban services much later - so the 319 cascade should head for the NW first, well before 2019.

I'm afraid you're looking at out-of-date information from the previous Labour government not the delayed dates given by the new Coalition government.

While Thameslink infrastructure improvements are expected to be delivered from Dec 2011 onwards including cascading NXEA stock for extra capacity, the delivery of new stock which will replace the 319s is now expected between 2014-2018. Also don't forget the new Coalition government hasn't promised the 319s to the North West or South West. They have been promised cascaded EMUs but have left the door open for the 319s replacing EMUs already in use elsewhere, with those EMUs going to the North West or South West in lieu of the 319s, which would obviously add to the delays.

Manchester-Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows was due to be electrified by 2013. However, only that route and not Manchester-Bolton-Preston or Preston-Blackpool which were later added in to the plans. Work on Manchester-Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows is already one year behind the original schedule, which proposed preliminary work would start straight away.

 

[dk1]

Also EMT have used 7 car 222s on Liverpool-Norwich on Grand National days.

Only North of Nottingham. Punters travelling to/from stations beyond Nottingham have to change trains.