Norwich-Liverpool

[metromuppet]

Evening,
Does the Norwich-Liverpool service reverse at any point?
Also, where are the main busy parts of the route, I doubt many would do the full journey?

 

[lm321412]

Evening,
Does the Norwich-Liverpool service reverse at any point?
Also, where are the main busy parts of the route, I doubt many would do the full journey?

Sheffield is one of the places it reverses.

 

[MCR247]

Sheffield and Ely

Liverpool - Sheffield - (Nottingham) is the busy part, that is why they normally only put 4 cars on this part of the route. The rest is usually carting around fresh air off peak

 

[SprinterMan]

Sheffield is one of the places it reverses.


Other than that, I don't think it reverses at any point.

It also reverses at Ely.

It tends to be busiest north of Nottingham.

 

[lm321412]

It also reverses at Ely.

Thanks, Haven't been that far on it

 

[Jonny]

Evening,
Does the Norwich-Liverpool service reverse at any point?
Also, where are the main busy parts of the route, I doubt many would do the full journey?

Reverses?
Sheffield certainly - I've been on it before and it reverses there. It has to go out and in to/from the south.

Busy points?
All of it AFAIK - at least to Alfreton from Manchester (furthest I've ever gone on it); apparently it's a byword for overcrowding and my experience backs that up. It depends on the time of day though.

 

[SprinterMan]

Thanks, Haven't been that far on it

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. One Norwich - Manchester (?) sunday service does not stop at ely and takes the loop, so it doesn't reverse. Having not been on it near Ely, your not missing much scenery-wise. It's all fenland lol.

 

[junglejames]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. One Norwich - Manchester (?) sunday service does not stop at ely and takes the loop, so it doesn't reverse. Having not been on it near Ely, your not missing much scenery-wise. It's all fenland lol.

I used to like Norwich to Ely, but having done it recently for the first time in a while, it seems to have really changed. The telegraph poles have come down, and, although cant be sure, it seems as though a lot of the woodland has been chopped down, or cut well back from the railway.
Im sure a few years back (about 5) the railway ran right through the forest more than it does now, or am I wrong?

Also, down to Peterborough can often be busy. East of Peterborough not so often, but certain trains are still very busy.

 

[MCR247]

Reverses?
Sheffield certainly - I've been on it before and it reverses there. It has to go out and in to/from the south.

Busy points?
All of it AFAIK - at least to Alfreton from Manchester (furthest I've ever gone on it); apparently it's a byword for overcrowding and my experience backs that up. It depends on the time of day though.

It definitely isn't busy all of the way.

 

[junglejames]

It definitely isn't busy all of the way.

Probably depends on time of day, but at different times I have seen all sections busy.

 

[c259]

Trains Liverpool bound usually fill after calling at Manchester Piccadilly/Oxford Road. It's usually the same with FTPE trains as well.

 

[dk1]

Liverpool - Sheffield - (Nottingham) is the busy part, that is why they normally only put 4 cars on this part of the route. The rest is usually carting around fresh air off peak

Definatley not fresh air between Norwich & Peterborough where trains can be very busy. Many trains 06.52-11.57 are very well loaded from Norwich. So can the 16.57 & 17.54. In the opposite direction arrivals at 08.13 (obviously) & many trains after 15.13 can deposit 60-80 at Norwich. Friday evenings & Sundays will produce standing room only. East Midlands recognise the problems caused by the 13.52 eastbound terminating Nottingham & this will hopefully be extended through to Norwich from December when the unit cascade will be completed.

 

[junglejames]

Glad i wasnt the only one to find Peterborough to Norwich busy at times. Thought i was going mad!!! Well actually, i probably am going mad anyway.

 

[yorkie]

Reverses?
Sheffield certainly - I've been on it before and it reverses there. It has to go out and in to/from the south.

It doesn't have to, but it certainly is quicker to. An example of a train that does not reverse is the 0550 from Nottingham on Saturdays (at least, yesterday, not sure if it is a regular thing).

Going via the 'old road' is one of those routes where people who are not regular customers can get confused and wonder if they are on the wrong train. Another example would be York to Leeds via Castleford, it does confuse some people.

Ely is the only place it has to reverse if it is to call. If a train did not call at Ely, then it would be possible to do the entire trip without a reversal.

 

[dk1]

Ely is the only place it has to reverse if it is to call. If a train did not call at Ely, then it would be possible to do the entire trip without a reversal.

When full bi-di working is re-introduced on Ely's West Curve next year there are plans for a speed up of services between Norwich & Peterborough with several services avoiding Ely. Connection for passengers to/from Cambridge for the North West will be made at March or Peterborough.

Also of note is that EMT have begun running trolley's through as far as Peteborough on selected services.

 

[Bald Rick]

When full bi-di working is re-introduced on Ely's West Curve next year there are plans for a speed up of services between Norwich & Peterborough with several services avoiding Ely. Connection for passengers to/from Cambridge for the North West will be made at March or Peterborough.

Also of note is that EMT have begun running trolley's through as far as Peteborough on selected services.

Sure about that? Both the reinstatement of the curve bidi next year and EMT dropping Ely calls?

 

[northwichcat]

Trains Liverpool bound usually fill after calling at Manchester Piccadilly/Oxford Road. It's usually the same with FTPE trains as well.

Some services are packed before they reach Manchester. You could, for instance, board at Stockport and have to stand (until at least Manchester.)

At off-peak times most of the Manchester traffic boards and alights at Piccadilly, but at peak times a greater amount uses Oxford Road.

 

[dk1]

Sure about that? Both the reinstatement of the curve bidi next year and EMT dropping Ely calls?

NR have plans to resignal Wymondham-Shippea Hill & unless it has slipped Ely West Curve was to have some minor alterations to re-instate bi-di during the Felixstowe-Nuneaton upgrade work. TPWS has now made this acceptable. Many colleagues working for EMT have also stated the company's intention to avoid Ely on certain services when this becomes possible in both direction.

 

[TheBigD]

NR have plans to resignal Wymondham-Shippea Hill & unless it has slipped Ely West Curve was to have some minor alterations to re-instate bi-di during the Felixstowe-Nuneaton upgrade work. TPWS has now made this acceptable.

Ely - Norwich will be resignalled by July 2012. Work starts on replacing the level crossing gates with barriers this summer. When the project is completed all the level crossings will be a new type that has been trailed (at Filey?) with obstacle detection. The crossovers at Shippea Hill, Lakenheath (half gone already), Attleborough will be removed. The crossover at the Ely end of Thetford will also go, and a new signal installed to allow trains from Norwich to reverse in the platform and return to Norwich. A new facing crossover will be installed at Brandon to allow freight trains from the Norwich direction to access the loop on the down side.

Many colleagues working for EMT have also stated the company's intention to avoid Ely on certain services when this becomes possible in both direction.

Cant see it happening to be honest. The time saving would only be about 8-10 minutes, not enough to save a unit unless you have 5 minute turnrounds at Norwich. EMT would also lose revenue from omitting the Ely call and I doubt that extra revenue from reduced journey times would make up the shortfall.

 

[Kneedown]

Glad i wasnt the only one to find Peterborough to Norwich busy at times. Thought i was going mad!!! Well actually, i probably am going mad anyway.

Nope, you're not going mad. At any time of day a 2 car unit can just about cope at present. If passenger numbers increase then there will be problems as there currently are on the Liverpool half of the route.
The thing is, general opinion was that a few more seats crammed into a 158 would sort things out. Unfortunately the fact that more seats in a coach equates to less luggage room (and it is a route on which a great many passengers have plenty of luggage with them) seems to have been lost on the powers that be.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ely - Norwich will be resignalled by July 2012. Work starts on replacing the level crossing gates with barriers this summer. When the project is completed all the level crossings will be a new type that has been trailed (at Filey?) with obstacle detection. The crossovers at Shippea Hill, Lakenheath (half gone already), Attleborough will be removed. The crossover at the Ely end of Thetford will also go, and a new signal installed to allow trains from Norwich to reverse in the platform and return to Norwich. A new facing crossover will be installed at Brandon to allow freight trains from the Norwich direction to access the loop on the down side.

I have also been informed by a Norwich driver that a possible "Phase 2" after resignalling will eliminate the 45mph PSR between Queen Adelaide and Lakenheath No8.

 

[Aictos]

When full bi-di working is re-introduced on Ely's West Curve next year there are plans for a speed up of services between Norwich & Peterborough with several services avoiding Ely. Connection for passengers to/from Cambridge for the North West will be made at March or Peterborough.

Also of note is that EMT have begun running trolley's through as far as Peteborough on selected services.

With regards to Ely, it's very handy when needing to get between Peterborough and Ely to be able to use EMT services or XC services.

Also with this cascade later this year, will the 4 car 158 formations be restricted to Nottingham to Liverpool or will they run the whole route?

 

[junglejames]

Although it wont happen (it'll cost extra) am I the only one that thinks this route should have some 'faster' services operated by LHCS? Should reduce pressure on the 158s. May even allow all 158 services to be 4 car.
Obviously it would need to be through wired for DVT operation at the other end due to the reversals. Saying that, these would be good ones to have avoiding Ely. Perhaps even fast from Norwich to Peterborough on some.

Please do pull me up if there are any obvious reasons why it couldnt happen, excluding costs, because we already know it wont happen for this reason. Its far cheaper to have people standing in the aisles, instead of putting an extra train on.

 

[stut]

Please do pull me up if there are any obvious reasons why it couldnt happen, excluding costs, because we already know it wont happen for this reason. Its far cheaper to have people standing in the aisles, instead of putting an extra train on.

I believe it's traditional, at this point, to mention the 'sprinter speeds' on the line through the Fens and Norfolk.

Alternatively, could stock be displaced from elsewhere to help strengthen Norwich-Liverpool? It seems daft to have what are now rather high-spec 158s on the Robin Hood Line, for example.

 

[junglejames]

I believe it's traditional, at this point, to mention the 'sprinter speeds' on the line through the Fens and Norfolk.

Alternatively, could stock be displaced from elsewhere to help strengthen Norwich-Liverpool? It seems daft to have what are now rather high-spec 158s on the Robin Hood Line, for example.

Yeah, wasnt sure what the speed differences are between MUs and LHCS between Peterborough and Norwich.

 

[WillPS]

With regards to Ely, it's very handy when needing to get between Peterborough and Ely to be able to use EMT services or XC services.

Also with this cascade later this year, will the 4 car 158 formations be restricted to Nottingham to Liverpool or will they run the whole route?

If my calculations are correct, the cascade will lead to enough to double all services west of Nottingham plus one more unit. I guess this could be used to improve services to the East, but I'd personally hope it puts an end to single dogbox operation on Crewe services.

 

[tbtc]

could stock be displaced from elsewhere to help strengthen Norwich-Liverpool? It seems daft to have what are now rather high-spec 158s on the Robin Hood Line, for example.

Agreed (though no dafter than seeing 100mph Turbostars on routes like Glasgow - Anniesland, Birmingham - Walsall etc).

The plan was for Northern to send some 156s to EMT to go onto routes like Skegness/Mansfield/ Ivanhoe, releasing 158s for the Norwich - Liverpool. I think this was a really good idea, I just hope there are more 156s than the initial four suggested, as even a four coach train will struggle with loads like Liverpool - Manchester...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although it wont happen (it'll cost extra) am I the only one that thinks this route should have some 'faster' services operated by LHCS? Should reduce pressure on the 158s. May even allow all 158 services to be 4 car.
Obviously it would need to be through wired for DVT operation at the other end due to the reversals. Saying that, these would be good ones to have avoiding Ely. Perhaps even fast from Norwich to Peterborough on some.

Please do pull me up if there are any obvious reasons why it couldnt happen, excluding costs, because we already know it wont happen for this reason. Its far cheaper to have people standing in the aisles, instead of putting an extra train on.

What spare stock (apart from a surplus of Mk3 buffet cars) and what spare paths?

Bear in mind that the Liverpool - Norwich service needs to get through a catalogue of bottle-necks on its route. The line through Warrington is carefully timed with a Pacer narrowly squeezed between the TPE/EMT services, congested platforms 13/14 at Manchester Picadilly, few spare paths through the Hope Valley, the single track chord at Dore... IIRC the southbound service has to cross the northbound ECML twice at flat crossings (and there aren't many spare paths there)... plus the general congestion you get at stations like Sheffield/ Nottingham/ Peterborough. Basically, the service needs to negotiate every big bottle neck north of London apart from Welwyn Viaduct! Finding spare paths isn't going to be easy...

Sorry to spoil your "why do people have to stand on a 158 when there are Mk3s sitting idle" rant.

 

[WillPS]

Not to mention the fact that anything other than a Sprinter/Turbostar would destroy timings East of Ely.

 

[dk1]

Provincial when it had recieved most class 158s on the cross-country routes out of East Anglia around 1992 briefly introduced a 06.51 Norwich-Birmingham. This train ran non-stop to Peterborough where it was due at 08.09 although usually arriving by 08.05. Rumour at the time was this was only done to please senior managers who travelled between Eastern Region offices is Norwich & headquaters in Stanier House Birmingham :roll:. The service only lasted one timetable. Since then the only non-stop workings have been the Great Yarmouth-Peterborough shuttles on Summers Saturdays until Central trains withdrew them around 10 years ago. The SuX 15.50 Norwich to Liverpool used to call all stations to Thetford then fast to Peterborough until it too went via Ely. This has left us with just the weekly 15.56 SuO Norwich-Liverpool going round the West curve.

 

[junglejames]

Agreed (though no dafter than seeing 100mph Turbostars on routes like Glasgow - Anniesland, Birmingham - Walsall etc).

The plan was for Northern to send some 156s to EMT to go onto routes like Skegness/Mansfield/ Ivanhoe, releasing 158s for the Norwich - Liverpool. I think this was a really good idea, I just hope there are more 156s than the initial four suggested, as even a four coach train will struggle with loads like Liverpool - Manchester...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What spare stock (apart from a surplus of Mk3 buffet cars) and what spare paths?

Bear in mind that the Liverpool - Norwich service needs to get through a catalogue of bottle-necks on its route. The line through Warrington is carefully timed with a Pacer narrowly squeezed between the TPE/EMT services, congested platforms 13/14 at Manchester Picadilly, few spare paths through the Hope Valley, the single track chord at Dore... IIRC the southbound service has to cross the northbound ECML twice at flat crossings (and there aren't many spare paths there)... plus the general congestion you get at stations like Sheffield/ Nottingham/ Peterborough. Basically, the service needs to negotiate every big bottle neck north of London apart from Welwyn Viaduct! Finding spare paths isn't going to be easy...

Sorry to spoil your "why do people have to stand on a 158 when there are Mk3s sitting idle" rant.

Well in the case of no spare paths, they would have to replace 158s on some services. So no extra services, but extra coaches. However ive already thought of my own problem. I was principally thinking of Mk2 stock, but then you have the issue of through wiring for DVTs. So thats a no go.
It would have to be top n tail, but that aint gonna happen. Admittedly that does kill it on costs big style.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not to mention the fact that anything other than a Sprinter/Turbostar would destroy timings East of Ely.

Yeah, wasnt sure of whats speed differentials were like, which is why i asked if there was anything stopping my idea.

Oh, and who mentioned 'my rant'?! It wasnt a rant. It was an idea/ suggestion. Definitely not a rant.

 

[tbtc]

It should also be pointed out that a lot of the route is two trains an hour, with the TPE service from Liverpool to Manchester, the TPE service from Manchester to Sheffield, the NR service from Sheffield to Nottingham, the EMT service from Nottingham to Grantham, various ECML services from Grantham to Peterborough, the XC service from Peterborough to Ely and the NXEA service from Ely to Norwich.

Given the need to fit into various services its not quite half hourly (e.g. Sheffield to Manchester is half hourly, Manchester to Sheffield is 20/40 minutes), but there are alternative routes paralleling the Liverpool - Norwich.