• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northumberland Line reopening: progress updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,629
Location
Nottingham
Is it because this particular rail scheme will be connected to the national rail network?
Light rail schemes also go through TWAO but are completely separate from the national network.
But I think it’s wrong in an earlier post to say that most roads are dealt with locally, many road applications go for something called a Development Consent Order from the Planning Inspectorate. (Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects)
Most of this scheme is within existing operational railway boundaries so covered by permitted development (details easily found from the link above, but I don't have time or inclination to work through them, and I think @swt_passenger has found the crucial sentence while I was typing this). So would equivalent fairly minor changes to the road between Newcastle and Ashington need approval from Grant Shapps?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,267
Light rail schemes also go through TWAO but are completely separate from the national network.

Most of this scheme is within existing operational railway boundaries so covered by permitted development (details easily found from the link above, but I don't have time or inclination to work through them, and I think @swt_passenger has found the crucial sentence while I was typing this). So would equivalent fairly minor changes to the road between Newcastle and Ashington need approval from Grant Shapps?
It’s interesting that part of Northumberland’s case explains various precedents set by recent projects such as EWR, Corby electrification. I think most people thought some significant parts of the EWR project should have been permitted development.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,729
AIUI, you need a TWAO (or DCO or Act of Parliament) to be able to operate an all new passenger service on a guided transport system where there isn’t one currently (or not recently).

Hence why Luton airport made a rather late application for a TWAO to operate the new DART link they have built, long after they had got all the necessary planning consents confirmed.

Looking back, I think that all new / reopened rail routes in the last 10/15 years or so have had some form of consent. Although there must be some exceptions (Todmorden curve for example?) that have found a way round it.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,908
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I thought the current TWAO process for railways was considered an improvement over what went before, which required an Act of Parliament and all the time/cost/constraints of that process (select committees of Commons and Lords etc, as for HS2).
BR used to present regular Railway Bills to parliament for its (normally rather minor) enhancements.
There were bigger BR projects though (deviations at Harecastle, Selby and Penmanshiel, for instance).
The last one (triggered by the Penmanshiel tunnel collapse) must have presented some challenging timescale problems.

The parliamentary process followed I think also depends on where the money is coming from (public, private or hybrid (a mixture of both)).
 

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,699
I am old enough to remember the M1 (yes, I know it isn't a railway) being extended north from Crick, now J18. Did we have these protracted rounds of consultations for that? There should be provision for appeals against compulsory purchase, that is only fair but the current system seems to make the process unreasonably protracted. There simply seems to be too many stages. Each takes what seems a reasonable amount of time but the iterative nature makes this add up and up. Thameslink 2000 started out 30 years ago and took 30 years but only a small part of this actually in build.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,519
Location
Northampton
I am old enough to remember the M1 (yes, I know it isn't a railway) being extended north from Crick, now J18. Did we have these protracted rounds of consultations for that? There should be provision for appeals against compulsory purchase, that is only fair but the current system seems to make the process unreasonably protracted. There simply seems to be too many stages. Each takes what seems a reasonable amount of time but the iterative nature makes this add up and up. Thameslink 2000 started out 30 years ago and took 30 years but only a small part of this actually in build.
As has been said above, the bit that takes the interminably long time is case development then option selection and finally detailed development. The legal side of the approvals process is relatively quick. The other bit that can take rather a long time is the interval between the report and recommendation being laid on the minister's desk, and the minister signing the form. There's not a lot that could be done to speed that up other than change the UK's voting system.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,086
I am old enough to remember the M1 (yes, I know it isn't a railway) being extended north from Crick, now J18. Did we have these protracted rounds of consultations for that? There should be provision for appeals against compulsory purchase, that is only fair but the current system seems to make the process unreasonably protracted. There simply seems to be too many stages. Each takes what seems a reasonable amount of time but the iterative nature makes this add up and up. Thameslink 2000 started out 30 years ago and took 30 years but only a small part of this actually in build.
But I don't think much of Tlink 2000 overdue timescale can be connected with rounds of consultation. Wasn't that mostly down to govt coming up with the money to make it happen, plus probably franchise re-jigs.
And some infrastructure delays can be down to court challenges of aspects of the projects (Heathrow runway comes to mind). Some of the challenges being from branches of govt (in that case local councils on behalf of residents).
Being able to challenge govt decisions (at least notionally!) is a fundamental part of a democracy.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,729
Thameslink 2000 started out 30 years ago and took 30 years but only a small part of this actually in build.

The Thameslink Programme wasn’t Thameslink 2000 though, they were different things.

And the Thameslink Programme was 10 years in the build phase!
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,629
Location
Nottingham
AIUI, you need a TWAO (or DCO or Act of Parliament) to be able to operate an all new passenger service on a guided transport system where there isn’t one currently (or not recently).

Hence why Luton airport made a rather late application for a TWAO to operate the new DART link they have built, long after they had got all the necessary planning consents confirmed.

Looking back, I think that all new / reopened rail routes in the last 10/15 years or so have had some form of consent. Although there must be some exceptions (Todmorden curve for example?) that have found a way round it.

As has been said above, the bit that takes the interminably long time is case development then option selection and finally detailed development. The legal side of the approvals process is relatively quick. The other bit that can take rather a long time is the interval between the report and recommendation being laid on the minister's desk, and the minister signing the form. There's not a lot that could be done to speed that up other than change the UK's voting system.
No doubt that is the current position. But nobody has justified why these extra powers and national-level consent are required to build and operate, or even just enhance a bit, a railway that is of only local interest, and not an equivalent local road.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,086
No doubt that is the current position. But nobody has justified why these extra powers and national-level consent are required to build and operate, or even just enhance a bit, a railway that is of only local interest, and not an equivalent local road.
Well, fair point - but that justification would (or should have happened) during the parliamentary process - including Bill committee stages - when the legislation that requires this was enacted, surely. I'll leave you to dig out the Hansard transcripts, but I'm willing to bet there would have been some MPs saying along lines of 'some of this is overkill for schemes that may only affect....' and Ministers, backed by civil service briefings, answering why that may well not be the case.

or did you mean no one on this thread has justified why? If so I'd say whoever said up thread 'it the law' gave the justification.

Is there any evidence that the TWAO is any significantly slower or costlier than the process a council would have to go through if it had to build a new road to serve an area? I'm no expert in the field so completely uncertain.

BTW - I'm sympathetic to your point!
 

waverley47

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2015
Messages
839
No doubt that is the current position. But nobody has justified why these extra powers and national-level consent are required to build and operate, or even just enhance a bit, a railway that is of only local interest, and not an equivalent local road.

So this is a bit of an odd one, and gets into the actual legality of running a railway in the first place. The legality or otherwise lies in the Light Railways act of 1896 and the Regulation of the railway s act of 1840, although both are no longer in effect in this country.

The origins sit in Victorian times, and the necessary stupidity of the system of the time. Private companies had to introduce bills to parliament, and get them passed, in order to be able to raise funds and build a railway. Operating the railway was not covered under this act, instead left to private companies until the regulation act in 1840. This introduced the railways inspectorate, and started governing safety ect.

Fast forward a century and a half, and neither of these laws exist any more. It no longer requires an act of parliament to open a railway, instead being a decision reserved to the Secretary of State for Transport, and the respective devolved administrations. But operating and building that railway still falls under normal planning processes

This leaves a strange situation where the SoS can authorise a railway to be built, but cannot authorise any works needed to build that railway. Railway reopenings go through the normal planning process but this takes a long time. A quicker way of doing this was the Transport and Works Act orders, introduced in 1992, ostensibly for HS1 and the channel tunnel, amongst other important infrastructure projects of the time, but subsequently very useful.

In this process, instead of applying for planning permission from local government, and getting tied up in planning permission for every new signal, platform and bridge, stakeholders in a scheme (including but not limited to Network Rail, Local Government, and grassroots campaigners) can make their application directly to the SoS. This is basically asking for planning permission from central government instead of local councils.

Now, some caveats.

The TWA order doesn't in and of itself grant planning permission. Instead, it's a way of making the planning process less messy, and make it harder to raise objections. What it does do is grant powers to, amongst other things: compulsorily purchase land, use land for access or for a work site, amend or revoke other legislation, close or alter roads and footpaths, provide temporary alternative routes, safeguard land ect.

The SoS then signs off of any TWA order, and any work can start. These are useful for big projects (note HS2 still requires its own acts of parliament die to its immense size) but for reopening local lines, it's still easier, quicker and cheaper to get an order.

Now, onto Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects. The process of applying for a TWA order doesn't mean that project will qualify as such an important project. That's just an extra level of sign off the SoS can do, which makes it more difficult to raise objections at local level.

The Northumberland line reopening qualifies as it involves creation of new infrastructure, significantly altering roads and footpaths, and the much more intensive use of land that was previously used rarely or laid to waste. We'll still see planning documents in due course, but the order basically allows NR and contractors to go ahead and do anything they need to, to facilitate reopening, short of actually building the stations.
 
Last edited:

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,086
So this is a bit of an odd one, and gets into the actual legality of running a railway in the first place. The legality or otherwise lies in the Light Railways act of 1896 and the Regulation of the railway s act of 1840, although both are no longer in effect in this country.

The origins sit in Victorian times, and the necessary stupidity of the system of the time. Private companies had to introduce bills to parliament, and get them passed, in order to be able to raise funds and build a railway. Operating the railway was not covered under this act, instead left to private companies until the regulation act in 1840. This introduced the railways inspectorate, and started governing safety ect.

Fast forward a century and a half, and neither of these laws exist any more. It no longer requires an act of parliament to open a railway, instead being a decision reserved to the Secretary of State for Transport, and the respective devolved administrations. But operating and building that railway still falls under normal planning processes

This leaves a strange situation where the SoS can authorise a railway to be built, but cannot authorise any works needed to build that railway. Railway reopenings go through the normal planning process but this takes a long time. A quicker way of doing this was the Transport and Works Act orders, introduced in 1992, ostensibly for HS1 and the channel tunnel, amongst other important infrastructure projects of the time, but subsequently very useful.

In this process, instead of applying for planning permission from local government, and getting tied up in planning permission for every new signal, platform and bridge, stakeholders in a scheme (including but not limited to Network Rail, Local Government, and grassroots campaigners) can make their application directly to the SoS. This is basically asking for planning permission from central government instead of local councils.

Now, some caveats.

The TWA order doesn't in and of itself grant planning permission. Instead, it's a way of making the planning process less messy, and make it harder to raise objections. What it does do is grant powers to, amongst other things: compulsorily purchase land, use land for access or for a work site, amend or revoke other legislation, close or alter roads and footpaths, provide temporary alternative routes, safeguard land ect.

The SoS then signs off of any TWA order, and any work can start. These are useful for big projects (note HS2 still requires its own acts of parliament die to its immense size) but for reopening local lines, it's still easier, quicker and cheaper to get an order.

Now, onto Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects. The process of applying for a TWA order doesn't mean that project will qualify as such an important project. That's just an extra level of sign off the SoS can do, which makes it more difficult to raise objections at local level.

The Northumberland line reopening qualifies as it involves creation of new infrastructure, significantly altering roads and footpaths, and the much more intensive use of land that was previously used rarely or laid to waste. We'll still see planning documents in due course, but the order basically allows NR and contractors to go ahead and do anything they need to, to facilitate reopening, short of actually building the stations.
Thanks for that - v interesting to read! And far more pertinent than my comment...
 
Last edited:

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,729
No doubt that is the current position. But nobody has justified why these extra powers and national-level consent are required to build and operate, or even just enhance a bit, a railway that is of only local interest, and not an equivalent local road.

So this is a bit of an odd one, and gets into the actual legality of running a railway in the first place. The legality or otherwise lies in the Light Railways act of 1896 and the Regulation of the railway s act of 1840, although both are no longer in effect in this country.

The origins sit in Victorian times, and the necessary stupidity of the system of the time. Private companies had to introduce bills to parliament, and get them passed, in order to be able to raise funds and build a railway. Operating the railway was not covered under this act, instead left to private companies until the regulation act in 1840. This introduced the railways inspectorate, and started governing safety ect.

Fast forward a century and a half, and neither of these laws exist any more. It no longer requires an act of parliament to open a railway, instead being a decision reserved to the Secretary of State for Transport, and the respective devolved administrations. But operating and building that railway still falls under normal planning processes

This leaves a strange situation where the SoS can authorise a railway to be built, but cannot authorise any works needed to build that railway. Railway reopenings go through the normal planning process but this takes a long time. A quicker way of doing this was the Transport and Works Act orders, introduced in 1992, ostensibly for HS1 and the channel tunnel, amongst other important infrastructure projects of the time, but subsequently very useful.

In this process, instead of applying for planning permission from local government, and getting tied up in planning permission for every new signal, platform and bridge, stakeholders in a scheme (including but not limited to Network Rail, Local Government, and grassroots campaigners) can make their application directly to the SoS. This is basically asking for planning permission from central government instead of local councils.

Now, some caveats.

The TWA order doesn't in and of itself grant planning permission. Instead, it's a way of making the planning process less messy, and make it harder to raise objections. What it does do is grant powers to, amongst other things: compulsorily purchase land, use land for access or for a work site, amend or revoke other legislation, close or alter roads and footpaths, provide temporary alternative routes, safeguard land ect.

The SoS then signs off of any TWA order, and any work can start. These are useful for big projects (note HS2 still requires its own acts of parliament die to its immense size) but for reopening local lines, it's still easier, quicker and cheaper to get an order.

Now, onto Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects. The process of applying for a TWA order doesn't mean that project will qualify as such an important project. That's just an extra level of sign off the SoS can do, which makes it more difficult to raise objections at local level.

The Northumberland line reopening qualifies as it involves creation of new infrastructure, significantly altering roads and footpaths, and the much more intensive use of land that was previously used rarely or laid to waste. We'll still see planning documents in due course, but the order basically allows NR and contractors to go ahead and do anything they need to, to facilitate reopening, short of actually building the stations.

Excellent answer.

To build on it to help answer @edwin_m, the reason why some (but not all) local road schemes can be dealt with locally, is that the relevant Highways Authority has the power to amend rights of way and compulsorily purchase land through the Highways Act 1980. There is still a need for public enquiries etc if there are any objections to the draft orders.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,219
Location
Bolton
While obviously not perfect, applications for Orders under the Transport & Works Act can go relatively smoothly all things considered. They just need to be prepared appropriately and the Secretary of State needs to be onboard with the likely costs (and if they're the funder, have the budget...). The fact that the application is already being submitted seems like rather good going, to me.

Of course, this is one project that the Conservative government cannot refuse to fund.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,629
Location
Nottingham
I understand the historic perspective, but "because it's always been that way" doesn't answer the question of why it has to be that way now. Maybe it would be satisfactory if the SoS always signed off without undue delay (if there's some problem with the scheme then stop it before money is spent on the application), but we all remember what happened to Castlefield Corridor. Roads can create just as much damage as railways - more in many cases - so why the difference in process?
 

waverley47

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2015
Messages
839
I understand the historic perspective, but "because it's always been that way" doesn't answer the question of why it has to be that way now. Maybe it would be satisfactory if the SoS always signed off without undue delay (if there's some problem with the scheme then stop it before money is spent on the application), but we all remember what happened to Castlefield Corridor. Roads can create just as much damage as railways - more in many cases - so why the difference in process?

Because most rods are delt with at a much more local level. Any new roads serving for example a housing estate being built will be dealt with as part of the development consent order for building those houses, and not as a separate proposal.

It's a way of bundling all the constituent aspects of a big project together, on a project with as many pieces as reopening a railway or an airport it's a way of simplifying the process.

While the Northumberland line may not need necessarily a TWA order for the scheme to progress, it's hedging bets for later on down the line. The order has all the parts together, and sits on the SoS desk while it's waiting to be signed, but that's still quicker and cheaper than building half of it before realising that the local authority has denied planning permission for a road bridge two years later that scuppers the project.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Excellent answer.

To build on it to help answer @edwin_m, the reason why some (but not all) local road schemes can be dealt with locally, is that the relevant Highways Authority has the power to amend rights of way and compulsorily purchase land through the Highways Act 1980. There is still a need for public enquiries etc if there are any objections to the draft orders.

This is also very important. The TWA order grants powers to a scheme, and the stakeholders in that scheme, to do things that they wouldn't otherwise be able to.

Some statutory authorities have standing powers to make changes inside their land, or for operational necessity. This includes NR having blanket authority to maintain their land, build maintenance facilities, upgrade power lines and install signals without needing planning permission. Similarly, the highway agency has the authority to change and install road signs ect.

This is all well and good for an operational railway line. The Northumberland line unfortunately exists in a limbo state, where its not signed off for passenger use, which is what the works address. While the works are in effect, the TWA order allows the same (and extended) powers above and beyond NRs existing statutory powers to do whatever they deem necessary to make the upgrade happen.

See also similar, but not identical, processes in Scotland to bring the Levenmouth line back into operation. While still technically an operational railway, those powers haven't been used in a while, so it's useful to have a piece of paper saying "everything we do here is legal" than to find out at a later date that it wasn't.
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,036
If also highlight that for roads associated with planning applications it can still take quite a long time for it to actually be built even after planning is granted.

Often it will take a few years before they start on site, not least due to having to deal with various subsidiary applications to provide details of various things.

Then often some of the development will happen before highway improvements start, which depending on the number of units can be another few years.

It can then take another few years (again depending on the scale) for the works to be built.

That's all after the years it's taken to sort out the design before it goes through the planning process.

As an example I worked on a link road (not over the whole time period) which was in the 1995 local plan (and work had been undertaken before then as well) it wasn't until 2010 that it was finished.
 

a_c_skinner

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
1,699
1995 local plan (and work had been undertaken before then as well) it wasn't until 2010 that it was finished
But that seems part of the madness, not a justification. 1995, decide a road is a good idea and wait fifteen years for the benefits.
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,036
But that seems part of the madness, not a justification. 1995, decide a road is a good idea and wait fifteen years for the benefits.

Indeed, however the point I was getting at was that rail suffers from similar frustrations.
 

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
2,131
Indeed, however the point I was getting at was that rail suffers from similar frustrations.
... and my point is that it's ridiculously wasteful and consuming of time and emotional energy to go through all this. I can see that maybe few would like Genghis Kahn's ways of 'getting this done expeditiously' but there must be scope for increasing SPEED and getting a GRIP ... oh well

In passing I note that Tyneside electrics went from 3rd rail to overhead- any 'message' in that for this line or for '3rd rail infills' elsewhere?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,267
... and my point is that it's ridiculously wasteful and consuming of time and emotional energy to go through all this. I can see that maybe few would like Genghis Kahn's ways of 'getting this done expeditiously' but there must be scope for increasing SPEED and getting a GRIP ... oh well

In passing I note that Tyneside electrics went from 3rd rail to overhead- any 'message' in that for this line or for '3rd rail infills' elsewhere?
Not a good message at all, because under BR they went from third rail to completely unelectrified and short DMUs…
 

BrianW

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2017
Messages
2,131
Not a good message at all, because under BR they went from third rail to completely unelectrified and short DMUs…
I guess I'm getting confused: BR/ Metro? Will such confusion continue- will it all be GBR? Sorry if that's been covered elsewhere- it's hard to keep up.
BTW- swt_passenger I see you're up to 24,994 messages since 2010; I'm in awe; I'm such a newbie and 'innocent abroad' ...
Thank you to all you 'vets' who help us along the way with your knowledge and experiences.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,519
Location
Northampton
I guess I'm getting confused: BR/ Metro? Will such confusion continue- will it all be GBR? Sorry if that's been covered elsewhere- it's hard to keep up.
BTW- swt_passenger I see you're up to 24,994 messages since 2010; I'm in awe; I'm such a newbie and 'innocent abroad' ...
Thank you to all you 'vets' who help us along the way with your knowledge and experiences.
The T&W Metro is an independent network apart from where Metro trains share NR tracks between Gateshead and Sunderland. We don't know for sure, but I would suspect the current arrangement will stay with Nexus running the Metro tracks and having a contract with GBR to allow their trains to operate over the common section.

The NER electrified some Tyneside lines in 1903 and LNER completed the job in the 30s. BR removed the electrification between 1963 and 1967 as the equipment became life expired. One route closed in 1973, and the T&W Metro took over the rest (realigned into the Tunnels) in the early 80s.

The Northumberland line will operate as part of the national rail network, running on Network Rail infrastructure throughout.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,267
I guess I'm getting confused: BR/ Metro? Will such confusion continue- will it all be GBR? Sorry if that's been covered elsewhere- it's hard to keep up.
They’ve said there’s no change to devolved infrastructure operators such as Metro. Most of their network was isolated from BR/Railtrack/Network Rail since the 80s anyway, but they have running rights over the mainline to Sunderland and South Hylton.

But the Northumberland line is not physically connected to Metro at all, I’m pretty sure it’ll be part of GBR, (ie whatever happens to Northern). It’s likely there’ll be some sort of ticketing inter-availability, but I’ve seen nothing specific published about it.
 

geordieblue

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
787
Location
Leeds
But the Northumberland line is not physically connected to Metro at all, I’m pretty sure it’ll be part of GBR, (ie whatever happens to Northern). It’s likely there’ll be some sort of ticketing inter-availability, but I’ve seen nothing specific published about it.
Ticketing interavailability may be difficult as the bulk of the line sits outside the Tyne and Wear area. There'll probably be a way of substituting travel between Northumberland Park and Central Station with Metro but it may be difficult to do more than that without a fairly radical shakeup of fares.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,267
Ticketing interavailability may be difficult as the bulk of the line sits outside the Tyne and Wear area. There'll probably be a way of substituting travel between Northumberland Park and Central Station with Metro but it may be difficult to do more than that without a fairly radical shakeup of fares.
I agree, I wasn’t thinking it would be easy…
 

themiller

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2011
Messages
1,380
Location
Cumbria, UK
The parliamentary process followed I think also depends on where the money is coming from (public, private or hybrid (a mixture of both)).
If I remember correctly, the diversion was done under a power that BR had to maintain the service in an emergency and seek formal permission afterwards.
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,267
Detailed planning application is now online for the new Seaton Delaval station.

So another single platform with significant car parking capacity, will they expect to attract some passengers who might have previously used Cramlington, as it’s only just over a mile from the eastern side of the Cramlington built up area…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top