Northern's Problems in the North West

[Moonshot]

Wrong - public transport is NOT a statutory public service. It is provided by private companies (apart from the handful of remaining municipal bus companies), and these exist to make a profit. National and local government choose in some instances (rapidly reducing in the case of bus services) to subsidise selected additional services in the public interest, but these wouldn't run if subsidies ceased. Look at what D&G buses are currently doing to their network.

Given the shambles that is currently Northern Rail, they should stop subsidising it and allow the unprofitable lines (probably most of them) to be closed down. It might be worth subsidising selected suburban commuter routes into the major conurbations, to be provided by another operator, in order to assist with reducing road traffic congestion, but rural routes like the Mid Cheshire line passenger service could be closed down completely with minimal impact.

What impact would closing down the MID CHESHIRE line have on the roads? Isn't it true that there are wider economic benefits from running a train service with a subsidy?

 

[scrapy]

What impact would closing down the MID CHESHIRE line have on the roads? Isn't it true that there are wider economic benefits from running a train service with a subsidy?

Don't take him/her on, I think they are just trying to get a reaction from certain people on this forum

 

[philjo]

I had an advance single today for Windermere to LEEDS via Skipton. I noticed before leaving Ambleside that all trains from Windermere cancelled this morning so I stayed on the 555 bus to Kendal and got the 41 up to Oxehnholme.
Fortunately I had a 7 day ticket for the stagecoach buses that I have nbeen usin gon the last few days so it didn’t cost me any extra for the unplanned bus trip. I used the TPE service so still got my booked train on to Leeds. Not sure what time I would have arrived if I was using the rail replacement bus from Windermere as I think that would miss the TPE service.
The conductor on the TPE service I used to Lancaster said they were told to accept all Northern tickets today.

 

[Robertj21a]

Crisis ? What crisis ?

I will be sure to remember this next time you are having a go at the RMT for the disruption they cause to passengers' lives when they strike.

Not at all sure how or why you're connecting up totally different issues !.

Perhaps you'd kindly point out where I have even mentioned the RMT ?

 

[daodao]

What impact would closing down the MID CHESHIRE line have on the roads? Isn't it true that there are wider economic benefits from running a train service with a subsidy?

The only significant traffic congestion in Cheshire occurs at school opening/closing times, on the M6, on surrounding routes when there is major disruption on the M6, and when a major road is closed for road works. Driving in Cheshire is very different from driving in Greater M/c, where Metrolink and heavy rail passenger services still have a major role.

 

[northernchris]

If a company relies on abnormal working practices to get tbe job done, why should a union be obliged to accept that ? The solution to this problem lies in Northern's hands - employ enough drivers to cover the services they have agreed to provide in their franchise agreement.

Northern have confirmed they have enough drivers, the problem seems to be a training backlog meaning there's quite a sizeable proportion that sign limited routes

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

One area we want to clarify is the position on train drivers, and to explain that we actually have more drivers than we need to run a full timetable in normal circumstances. We currently have 1,529 train drivers, 180 more than when we started the franchise.

I'm not convinced removing 165 services a day will be enough, and still expect to see numerous cancellations due to driver shortages on a daily basis, but it's a start. It's also at a quieter time of year as universities and colleges begin to wind down and commuters take annual leave, so that may minimise some of the inconvenience

 

[Robertj21a]

These bustiturions - can they all take a wheelchair-bound passengers? I'm sure those that are normally routine public buses will, but what about coaches? The ones I have used in the past seem to have tight and steep stairwells. Has anyone any experience??

Has anybody even seen the details for what is proposed, or is everyone guessing ?

It will most probably turn out to be a combination of what is actually specified by the TOC, what is actually available, and then a combination of taxis or specially adapted minibuses to cover all eventualities.

 

[Moonshot]

The only significant traffic congestion in Cheshire occurs at school opening/closing times, on the M6, on surrounding routes when there is major disruption on the M6, and when a major road is closed for road works. Driving in Cheshire is very different from driving in Greater M/c, where Metrolink and heavy rail passenger services still have a major role.

In any event, no matter what you think and post on here, there are no plans to close any rail line.

 

[Moonshot]

Northern have confirmed they have enough drivers, the problem seems to be a training backlog meaning there's quite a sizeable proportion that sign limited routes

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables



I'm not convinced removing 165 services a day will be enough, and still expect to see numerous cancellations due to driver shortages on a daily basis, but it's a start. It's also at a quieter time of year as universities and colleges begin to wind down and commuters take annual leave, so that may minimise some of the inconvenience

Works out at around 5 or 6% of the planned services. So not a big change by any means.

 

[Robertj21a]

Working backwards... I don't, it was a slip of the tongue/pen. Most rail-replacement vehicles I see around Crewe seem to be coaches but don't look as though they have toilets on board.
I've made planned journeys by bus too: they mostly go via main roads and town centres to the next one. Not wriggling in and out of station yards for an hour or so (when it should have been a 20-minute train journey more-or-less in a straight line.) Can't you see that?

It's true, I do struggle a bit to see what the problem is when you're just sitting down. If roads to/from stations bother you, can't you just read a book or listen to music like other people ?

 

[jizzer]

Heard on the grapevine that northern have made an offer to ASLEF for a RDW agreement but ASLEF won't consider it unless it is bundled up with other stuff that they want i.e. pay talks/loyalty payment/changes to conditions etc. I imagine they will want £40 an hour or so, similar to TPE RDW agreement. They are in a very strong position at the moment and they are only concerned about their members and getting the best deal possible for them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The railway is a public service, not a profit-making business in a free competitive market..

I can well imagine how that statement would have been received by a certain George Hudson at one of his many meetings with prospective investors in railways in the heady days of "The Railway Mania"......

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair to Northern, the Lakes line is quite bustitutable - it pretty much parallels the A591 and in early June it won't be anywhere near as busy as in school holidays; it's much easier than, say, the Barrow/Furness line which would involve significant diversions down B roads to Arnside/Cark

I very much agree - now it's a dual carriageway it's not too bad for congestion either.

An all stations to Barrow bustitution adds something like 2 hours to the journey time, if I recall rightly - it puts you straight into "full refund" territory. I had it once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When rest day working was in place, there was no issue covering the train plan.

Even if it is, TOCs should not rely on it. It should be used when things really go wrong, e.g. unexpected high levels of sickness, not day to day operation with expected delays.

 

[158756]

Northern have confirmed they have enough drivers, the problem seems to be a training backlog meaning there's quite a sizeable proportion that sign limited routes

If this is true can the problem not simply be solved by ceasing all training until they can recruit more drivers? Have drivers who know it shuttle back and forth to Blackpool or if that's not possible continue the part train/part bus timetable. Maybe future flexibility might be reduced, but there will be no need if all the passengers have disappeared by then.

 

[randyrippley]

I had an advance single today for Windermere to LEEDS via Skipton. I noticed before leaving Ambleside that all trains from Windermere cancelled this morning so I stayed on the 555 bus to Kendal and got the 41 up to Oxehnholme.
Fortunately I had a 7 day ticket for the stagecoach buses that I have nbeen usin gon the last few days so it didn’t cost me any extra for the unplanned bus trip. I used the TPE service so still got my booked train on to Leeds. Not sure what time I would have arrived if I was using the rail replacement bus from Windermere as I think that would miss the TPE service.
The conductor on the TPE service I used to Lancaster said they were told to accept all Northern tickets today.

Funny how TPE never had problems when they ran the Windermere service.......
In your case today I would have stayed on the 555 all the way to Carnforth and got the Leeds train there

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funny how TPE never had problems when they ran the Windermere service.......

TPE never had problems? Have you *seen* the overcrowding on TPE?

 

[Andyh82]

I don’t get rest day working on the railways, I don’t get why it’s a thing, if you were on the minimum wage desperate for money I could understand why you’d want to work overtime, but train drivers are well paid so presumably aren’t desperate for it.

Therefore why is working your rest day something that is a thing. I know it’s said that the railway falls apart without it, but that shows that it takes place in great enough numbers in normal circumstances to be significant.

Yes there would be a bit of overtime every now and then but surely that would be infrequent and something decided by the employee on an individual basis in each case?

 

[B&I]

ASLEF should have absolutely no say whatsoever in whether a driver accepts overtime in the form of rest day working. It's purely voluntary. This issue is now causing some real concern in mess rooms. When rest day working was in place, there was no issue covering the train plan.

Another person reluctant to address Northern's inability to employ enough staff. Tell me, why can't they just do that ?

Would you prefer a situation where collective bargaining was abandoned, and employees were left to fend for themselves ?

 

[B&I]

Wrong - public transport is NOT a statutory public service. It is provided by private companies (apart from the handful of remaining municipal bus companies), and these exist to make a profit. National and local government choose in some instances (rapidly reducing in the case of bus services) to subsidise selected additional services in the public interest, but these wouldn't run if subsidies ceased. Look at what D&G buses are currently doing to their network.

Given the shambles that is currently Northern Rail, they should stop subsidising it and allow the unprofitable lines (probably most of them) to be closed down. It might be worth subsidising selected suburban commuter routes into the major conurbations, to be provided by another operator, in order to assist with reducing road traffic congestion, but rural routes like the Mid Cheshire line passenger service could be closed down completely with minimal impact.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people spend their time posting on a forum about railways, despite their main contribution to the debate being 'there's too much railway'.

The railway is a public service. It is a service, and the public depend on it. That may not suit your apparent desire to see public services dismembered and their remains fed off by private sector vultures, but it is the reality.

In any case, what has your desire to reduce the amount of railway got to do with the quality of Northern's service ?

 

[randyrippley]

TPE never had problems? Have you *seen* the overcrowding on TPE?

but they had enough drivers and never cancelled trains
well hardly ever.........

 

[B&I]

Don't take him/her on, I think they are just trying to get a reaction from certain people on this forum

Not at all sure how or why you're connecting up totally different issues !.

Perhaps you'd kindly point out where I have even mentioned the RMT ?

You are a vociferous poster on any threads to do with strike action, and your standard view point is that it's all the unions' fault for wrexking everyone's lives by preventing train services from running. Do you hold the same view when it is very clearly a train operating company, and / or the organ grinders at the DfT, who are doing the wrecking ?

 

[B&I]

The only significant traffic congestion in Cheshire occurs at school opening/closing times, on the M6, on surrounding routes when there is major disruption on the M6, and when a major road is closed for road works. Driving in Cheshire is very different from driving in Greater M/c, where Metrolink and heavy rail passenger services still have a major role.

So, no traffic congestion at all, except on the major roads through the county, at the busy times of the day.

How would you feel if government subsidy for roads was cut, and all road users had to pay for the full environmental and social impacts of their travel choices ?

And what has any of this got to do with the quality of Northern's service ?

 

[B&I]

Northern have confirmed they have enough drivers, the problem seems to be a training backlog meaning there's quite a sizeable proportion that sign limited routes

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables



I'm not convinced removing 165 services a day will be enough, and still expect to see numerous cancellations due to driver shortages on a daily basis, but it's a start. It's also at a quieter time of year as universities and colleges begin to wind down and commuters take annual leave, so that may minimise some of the inconvenience

They would say that, wouldn't they ? Funny that no-one else actually accepts that, including many of their staff I have overheard discussing matters while travelling, and virtually everyone posting on here. Also, if they do bot have enough staff to enable services to run while they conduct training, then by definition they do not have enough staff.

 

[B&I]

I can well imagine how that statement would have been received by a certain George Hudson at one of his many meetings with prospective investors in railways in the heady days of "The Railway Mania"......

George Hudson died 147 years ago. His views aboyt the current management of railways are about as relevant as Alexander Graham Bell's opinions on fibre optic cables, or the advice that George Armstrong Custer could offer to practitioners of drone warfare.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do you hold the same view when it is very clearly a train operating company, and / or the organ grinders at the DfT, who are doing the wrecking ?

What on earth do 19th century musical street performers do at the DfT...

 

[CHAPS2034]

A great many Labour MPs take money from the RMT at an individual level.

I'm sorry, but have you got proof of that? Because if you have, I will be withdrawing my membership

There is nothing like a dose of hyperbole to alarm the masses. All of three MP's declared some form of donation from the RMT in the latest release of Members Interests.

Corbyn, Jeremy (Islington North)
Hopkins, Kelvin (Luton North)
Mearns, Ian (Gateshead)

Or if you want to look at the last Parliament it was all of two.

Corbyn, Jeremy (Islington North)
Mearns, Ian (Gateshead)

Interesting. This from the Labour List here. Mind you it is nearly a year old.

https://labourlist.org/2017/07/the-top-corbyn-allies-who-won-financial-backing-from-the-rmt-union/

This is the full list of Labour MPs who received donations, or donations in kind, from the RMT union, according to the new entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. The union is not affiliated to Labour but its gifts follow bouts of speculation that it could rejoin the ranks of official backers of the party.

Diane Abbott, shadow home secretary and MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington – £2,500

Jeremy Corbyn, Labour leader and MP for Islington North – £5,000

Kelvin Hopkins, MP for Luton North – £5,000

Ian Lavery, party chair and MP for Wansbeck – £5,000

Clive Lewis, MP for Norwich South – £3,000

Rebecca Long-Bailey, shadow business, industrial strategy and energy secretary and MP for Salford and Eccles – £4,600

Andy McDonald, shadow transport secretary and MP for Middlesbrough – £4,000

John McDonnell, shadow chancellor and MP for Hayes and Harlington – amount unknown.

Ian Mearns, MP for Gateshead – £8,000

Grahame Morris, MP for Easington – £4,000

Teresa Pearce, MP for Erith and Thamesmead – £2,500

Angela Rayner, shadow education secretary and MP for Ashton-under-Lyne – £4,000

Cat Smith, shadow minister for voter engagement and youth affairs and MP for Lancaster and Fleetwood – £5,000

Jo Stevens, MP for Cardiff Central – £2,500

And jcollins put a link earlier to an RMT press release here
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-aligns-towards-labour-whilst30618/
which contains the following
"In contrast there is a clear desire amongst RMT members to support Jeremy Corbyn and the left leadership of the Labour Party and that is why we are now be putting in place other concrete steps to throw the weight of the RMT behind supporting the socialist advances that have been made in the Labour Party, this will include aligning ourselves towards Labour, encouraging members to be active in Labour and allowing our Branches and Regions to fund Labour candidates."

So if it is correct, Moonshot, I look forward to hearing that you have withdrawn your membership.

Meanwhile, Moonshot, I hope you will be able to do a straw poll by talking to some of these happy passengers that you see pouring in and out of Victoria and ask them for their views on the reliability of the services and whether it has had any major affect on lives so far. You will also be able to verbally assure them as a representative of Northern that there is really not much wrong and it will all be much better in future. Please tell us what their reaction is

 

[northernchris]

Also, if they do bot have enough staff to enable services to run while they conduct training, then by definition they do not have enough staff.

This is the issue. They have enough drivers on the books, but they don't sign all routes. If the planned May 18 timetable had gone ahead there's a chance the training requirements wouldn't have been as drastic as they have been so some of it has been unplanned.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

George Hudson died 147 years ago. His views aboyt the current management of railways are about as relevant as Alexander Graham Bell's opinions on fibre optic cables, or the advice that George Armstrong Custer could offer to practitioners of drone warfare.

At least by mentioning the date of the death of George Hudson, it shows that you saw the phrase "The Railway Mania" in my posting, which was made about your posting comment that totally ignored the historical growth of railways in Britain that was based upon on funds from investors, not from any Government.

It was nothing whatsoever about commenting on styles of management, either in historical terms or in current terms.

 

[B&I]

What on earth do 19th century musical street performers do at the DfT...

Keep George Hudson entertained