Northern's Problems in the North West

[Howardh]

^ They're listed at the bottom of the page here:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

Or under the individual station information pages, when you click "New timetables from 4 June" (slightly confusingly the old timetables show up by default).

Not sure what you mean? the timetable that appears when I click the Airport link gives the dates as 4 - 8 June - is that an *old* version which needs to be updated or is it the actual planned service?

 

[Overspeed110]

I know exactly what I'm talking about.....and you can dress it up in whatever words you want , but the fact remains that drivers are not working rest days. The lack of a RDW agreement ( which shouldnt really exist in the first place imo ) has stopped drivers who are perfectly happy to work overtime voluntarily the opportunity to earn some extra cash.

You don't know what you're talking about, the post on this page contradicts your previous post.
You do know you can't work 12 hour shifts as a driver at Northern, don't you?

 

[muz379]

Makes it a bit awkward when it is clear that the inability of Northern to run a service is in no small part down to the 35hr week, 7hr training days and collectively negotiated agreement to offer and take overtime that are causing the problems.

The 35 hr week , RDW agreements have been the case for longer than Ariva have owned the franchise . It is not as if Aslef have just recently decided to instruct all drivers to only do 35 hours a week .

Company offers voluntary overtime at an enhanced rate of pay. Employee accepts. It's pretty simple stuff.

Most people who aren't on £60k for a 35hr week will fill their boots.

Drivers at Northern aren't on 60k for a 35 hr week either . Do please keep it factual .

As explained, no TOC or any organisation could ever employ people to run a reliable service in the sort of absurd framework that ASLEF have forced on the railway. Every shortage forces another capitulation that makes the shortage worse.

35hr week, 10hr day, 4 day week, no RDW, 7hr training days, retirement at 60. Next it will be a 32hr week and so on.

But knowing that your staff are contracted to a 35 hr 4 day week you can then begin to calculate how many you will need to run the service you advertise plus a number as a reasonable contingency .

You might think the terms are generous , but that is irrelevant to the matter . The terms are well known to the employer . The numbers needed are easily calculable based on those terms .

ASLEF should have absolutely no say whatsoever in whether a driver accepts overtime in the form of rest day working. It's purely voluntary. This issue is now causing some real concern in mess rooms. When rest day working was in place, there was no issue covering the train plan.

To be fair on this matter it does seem unusual . But lets remember that ASLEF has a responsibility to protect drivers as well .If it just allowed RDW for any reason without limits and a driver had an incident which was found to be caused by fatigue and a look at the drivers past shift indicates that by working extensive RDW they have breached the fatigue index then there are going to be difficult questions to answer . This is why ASLEF is fairly often reluctant to agree to RDW for wholesale cover of the train plan and instead issues it for more restricted purposes like covering training . In the past this i really dont think this has been monitored well by ASLEF full time officers at various tocs and the increase in fatigue related incidents has occurred partly as a result of that .

There are more important considerations than just earning a few extra pennies . Yes there is some moaning from those in the mess room indebted up to their eyeballs . it is difficult to sympathise with them to be frank . But those are some of the people who would in my view sell out their colleagues in their own grade if they could .

 

[B&I]

What people don't seem to realise is that if it is renationalised, BR or whatever it becomes, will still have an unworkable Labour relations model and the same unions bank rolling the Labour Party will move on to trying to insource bin collections and bring schools back under LEA control. It's not like we haven't seen this film before.

You do not need to repeat that you are yet another of the people on here who thinks that the unions and / or Labour are somehow at fault if they hit their own thumb with a hammer. However, no matter how much you peddle your conspiracy theories, the evidence that this mess has been created by the DfT and their stooges at Northern simply will not go away. If you think the privatised rail model is something worth fighting for, I suggest you concentrate your fire on the people actually doing most to undermine it

 

[Moonshot]

I don't disagree with any of this. That is the problem with the privatised railway and there is no doubt that many rail worked have done rather well out of it which begs the question as to why unions such as the RMT want renationalisation?

However, that is a debate for another thread.

It is , but you are not wrong in your post. Absolutely nothing wrong with drivers wanting to make the most of their skill set financially. And I can absolutely guarantee you that a lot of drivers are quite happy to work as many hours as they are safely allowed to do so.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My good lady wife has elderly lady friends (70s/80s) who regularly took the train from the Manchester area to Blackpool North in order to then change onto the Blackpool Transport number 14 bus at the nearby bus stop at Wilko to travel from there to the area of the Poulton Road area of Fleetwood to visit relatives in the nursing home there. Needless to say, the current fiasco has put an end to those visits.

Why was the Blackpool North service taken off TPE when the new franchises were planned?

 

[Moonshot]

The 35 hr week , RDW agreements have been the case for longer than Ariva have owned the franchise . It is not as if Aslef have just recently decided to instruct all drivers to only do 35 hours a week .


Drivers at Northern aren't on 60k for a 35 hr week either . Do please keep it factual .



But knowing that your staff are contracted to a 35 hr 4 day week you can then begin to calculate how many you will need to run the service you advertise plus a number as a reasonable contingency .

You might think the terms are generous , but that is irrelevant to the matter . The terms are well known to the employer . The numbers needed are easily calculable based on those terms .


To be fair on this matter it does seem unusual . But lets remember that ASLEF has a responsibility to protect drivers as well .If it just allowed RDW for any reason without limits and a driver had an incident which was found to be caused by fatigue and a look at the drivers past shift indicates that by working extensive RDW they have breached the fatigue index then there are going to be difficult questions to answer . This is why ASLEF is fairly often reluctant to agree to RDW for wholesale cover of the train plan and instead issues it for more restricted purposes like covering training . In the past this i really dont think this has been monitored well by ASLEF full time officers at various tocs and the increase in fatigue related incidents has occurred partly as a result of that .

There are more important considerations than just earning a few extra pennies . Yes there is some moaning from those in the mess room indebted up to their eyeballs . it is difficult to sympathise with them to be frank . But those are some of the people who would in my view sell out their colleagues in their own grade if they could .

I'm absolutely not advocating breaching any hours limits , they exist for a purpose and rightly so. We all adhere to it just like we do to the alcohol rules

 

[northwichcat]

My good lady wife has elderly lady friends (70s/80s) who regularly took the train from the Manchester area to Blackpool North in order to then change onto the Blackpool Transport number 14 bus at the nearby bus stop at Wilko to the area of the Poulton Road area of Fleetwood to visit relatives in the nursing home there. Needless to say, the current fiasco has put an end to those visits.

Why was the Blackpool North service taken off TPE when the new franchises were planned?

You may recall Manchester Airport to Blackpool used to get 175s under a North West franchise. The SRA decided to move the 175s to the Wales & Borders franchise but decided it would be unpopular for it to be a Northern service operated by Pacers or Sprinters and they didn't want the Northern franchise to order any new trains but wanted to stretch the new TPE order as far as possible. Hence, why it became a TPE service operated using 185s. However, under the recent franchise re-letting DfT decided the route makes more sense under the Northern franchise and as long as there's a requirement for high quality rolling stock to be used long term it wouldn't still be politically unpopular to have Northern operating the route.

 

[driver_m]

Again, define safe...my safe might be very different to a financial manager's 'safe'. One of the union reasons for existence is to keep its members safe, which can directly conflict with a company requirement to make a profit. Ultimately that's why the rest day agreement is restrictive because you don't want us overworked and burnt out, as ultimately, it puts you, the customer at risk. I would not want to use an airline where the pilots are constantly 'grabbing' and where the employer is pushing the fatigue criteria to the absolute limits and trying to scrimp on pilots .Why should we be any different? Yes it's not physically demanding, but mentally, very much so.

 

[Moonshot]

You don't know what you're talking about, the post on this page contradicts your previous post.
You do know you can't work 12 hour shifts as a driver at Northern, don't you?

Yes you can, but no shift is actually planned as a 12 hour shift, the max is 10. So please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, because I work for them. Drivers can get paid for a 12 hour shift if they work some overtime on a normal working day, but that does not mean they actually work 12 Hours

 

[tbtc]

If anyone is doing anything to wreck franchising and push the cause for renationalisation, it is the TOCs and the DfT. Anyone who pretends otherwise is, deliberately or not, engaged in deflection

This is one of my favourite arguments.

The DfT are so bad at things that we must nationalise the railways... at which point the entire show will be run by, erm, the DfT

If the public sector Network Rail had delivered the Manchester - Blackpool electrification on time/ on budget and if the DfT had organised things better then we wouldn't be in this mess. Yet people still act as if the private sector are the baddies.

(I do enjoy the cognitive dissonance, whereby people complain so much about Network Rail, Dft, ORR, Politicians, Transport Secretary... and decide that the solution to this is nationalisation... I suppose they cling to the idea that the railway will magically be run by "Proper Railway Men" resurrected from previous generations, but I don't see it myself)

It has already been mentioned here that on Northern, despite having a 4 day week on a 35hr contract which is an 8.75hr working day, when training drivers have a 7hr maximum.

This means from Buxton or Leeds there is scarcely time to get to Blackpool to conduct route learning before having to leave again.

Even for those working the full 8.75hr working day, the timetables don't allow many round trips to be completed, which is why the convoluted pattern of services really ought to be chopped up and simplified into something more suited to a reliable simple timetable.

One driver/guard can do lots of trips on a route like Manchester - Glossop/ Rose Hill Marple during a diagram but running all of these long routes either means staff doing inefficient trips unsuited to fitting neatly into a working day *or* trying to relieve staff at somewhere busy like Oxford Road.

 

[driver_m]

This is one of my favourite arguments.

The DfT are so bad at things that we must nationalise the railways... at which point the entire show will be run by, erm, the DfT

If the public sector Network Rail had delivered the Manchester - Blackpool electrification on time/ on budget and if the DfT had organised things better then we wouldn't be in this mess. Yet people still act as if the private sector are the baddies.

(I do enjoy the cognitive dissonance, whereby people complain so much about Network Rail, Dft, ORR, Politicians, Transport Secretary... and decide that the solution to this is nationalisation... I suppose they cling to the idea that the railway will magically be run by "Proper Railway Men" resurrected from previous generations, but I don't see it myself)



Even for those working the full 8.75hr working day, the timetables don't allow many round trips to be completed, which is why the convoluted pattern of services really ought to be chopped up and simplified into something more suited to a reliable simple timetable.

One driver/guard can do lots of trips on a route like Manchester - Glossop/ Rose Hill Marple during a diagram but running all of these long routes either means staff doing inefficient trips unsuited to fitting neatly into a working day *or* trying to relieve staff at somewhere busy like Oxford Road.

BR was quite good at trying to keep the job going because it would normally have drivers and guards covering a wide range of routes & traction at each depot. Privatised system saw that off though didn't it?! I'm an advocate of a semi nationalised system but more in a big 4 style. One thing is for certain though. The current system won't last much longer if previous railway history is anything to go by.

 

[northwichcat]

This is one of my favourite arguments.

The DfT are so bad at things that we must nationalise the railways... at which point the entire show will be run by, erm, the DfT

If the public sector Network Rail had delivered the Manchester - Blackpool electrification on time/ on budget and if the DfT had organised things better then we wouldn't be in this mess. Yet people still act as if the private sector are the baddies.

(I do enjoy the cognitive dissonance, whereby people complain so much about Network Rail, Dft, ORR, Politicians, Transport Secretary... and decide that the solution to this is nationalisation... I suppose they cling to the idea that the railway will magically be run by "Proper Railway Men" resurrected from previous generations, but I don't see it myself)

It should be remembered the 'proper railway people' from the BR period who haven't retired now work for the likes of First and Arriva and also that the Great Western franchise actually became better managed after First Group bought out the group of ex-BR managers who owned Great Western Holdings!

I'm also sure the railway staff would have enjoyed having the public sector 1% pay cap imposed on them.

 

[Jimmy Foster]

I was told by a source over a week ago that the problems Northern are facing at the moment are all spreading from the coastal depots in land and that bosses are unhappy with how those depots have been managed - I guess that is Blackpool and Liverpool? The majority of cancellations do seeem to be on trains that could be operated from those depots so that makes sense I suppose.

Anyway, the same source told me yesterday that the director who managed them depots is being 'moved on' - it's a woman but I can't remember the name. I asked if that meant she is being sacked but was told it means she is being moved to another job.

 

[northwichcat]

Anyway, the same source told me yesterday that the director who managed them depots is being 'moved on' - it's a woman but I can't remember the name. I asked if that meant she is being sacked but was told it means she is being moved to another job.

Would that be Sharon Keith, the regional director whose area covers Merseyside and the Lancashire and Cumbria coast or someone who is lower level management?

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is one of my favourite arguments.

The DfT are so bad at things that we must nationalise the railways... at which point the entire show will be run by, erm, the DfT

If the public sector Network Rail had delivered the Manchester - Blackpool electrification on time/ on budget and if the DfT had organised things better then we wouldn't be in this mess. Yet people still act as if the private sector are the baddies.

I really have no idea what you mean with that. The DfT are cuplable but none of it is Arriva or Northern's fault?

One thing I will say is the last major timetable change in the North West was the introduction of VHF. That might have had some teething troubles but was certainly not the fiasco this timetable change is. The VHF timetable was a DfT project.

 

[tbtc]

BR was quite good at trying to keep the job going because it would normally have drivers and guards covering a wide range of routes & traction at each depot. Privatised system saw that off though didn't it?! I'm an advocate of a semi nationalised system but more in a big 4 style. One thing is for certain though. The current system won't last much longer if previous railway history is anything to go by.

Sure, but that traction/ route knowledge requires regular training - part of the problem that Northern has is the large number of staff being trained on Blackpool services at the moment - people are scratching their heads at the idea of four hundred out of sixteen hundred staff needing trained on the line from Preston to Blackpool - so if the solution is even more staff requiring regular training on even more bits of route then that just makes things even more complicated

It should be remembered the 'proper railway people' from the BR period who haven't retired now work for the likes of First and Arriva and also that the Great Western franchise actually became better managed after First Group brought out the group of ex-BR managers who owned Great Western Holdings!

I'm also sure the railway staff would have enjoyed having the public sector 1% pay cap imposed on them.

True

I was told by a source over a week ago that the problems Northern are facing at the moment are all spreading from the coastal depots in land and that bosses are unhappy with how those depots have been managed - I guess that is Blackpool and Liverpool? The majority of cancellations do seeem to be on trains that could be operated from those depots so that makes sense I suppose

I don't know about the situation on the ground at Northern but TPE seem to be having problems at the coast too - albeit Scarborough - maybe there's something in the sea air?

I really have no idea what you mean with that. The DfT are cuplable but none of it is Arriva or Northern's fault?

One thing I will say is the last major timetable change in the North West was the introduction of VHF. That might have had some teething troubles but was certainly not the fiasco this timetable change is. The VHF timetable was a DfT project.

I'm not saying Arriva/ Northern are blameless, just that a significant amount of the blame should be shouldered by the DfT and Network Rail. If the electrification had been done on time then the private TOC would have had more time to come up with a robust timetable, more time to arrange staff/ training etc.

I'm agnostic on these things but I don't buy the argument that, because the DfT and Network Rail have mucked up in Lancashire the answer to the problem must therefore be complete control of the railway by the DfT and Network Rail.

 

[Bertie the bus]

What has physically erecting masts got to do with a government department?

As has been said many, many times, the problems in Lancashire didn't start with the new timetable.

 

[Jimmy Foster]

Would that be Sharon Keith, the regional director whose area covers Merseyside and the Lancashire and Cumbria coast or someone who is lower level management?

Yes that was it - Sharon Keith

 

[B&I]

This is one of my favourite arguments.

The DfT are so bad at things that we must nationalise the railways... at which point the entire show will be run by, erm, the DfT

If the public sector Network Rail had delivered the Manchester - Blackpool electrification on time/ on budget and if the DfT had organised things better then we wouldn't be in this mess. Yet people still act as if the private sector are the baddies.

(I do enjoy the cognitive dissonance, whereby people complain so much about Network Rail, Dft, ORR, Politicians, Transport Secretary... and decide that the solution to this is nationalisation... I suppose they cling to the idea that the railway will magically be run by "Proper Railway Men" resurrected from previous generations, but I don't see it myself).

This is not in fact what I was saying. I did not bring renationalisation into the debate, or say anything about whether it would improve services. (Though I have my own views on this: I have never heard of BR failing to employ enough drivers to drive the necessary number of trains).

Instead I pointed out that the main threat to the privatised model was not some nefarious conspiracy by the nefarious conspirators of ASLEF (an organisation clearly up there with SPECTRE, THRUSH and KAOS in the threat it poses to Western Civilisation in the minds of some on here). My suggestion was that the incompetence of the DfT and Northern was instead a greater threat to the continued use of the current model of privatisation.

 

[Polarbear]

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

The timetables coming into full effect on Monday. Note that in the above link the amendments to services around Liverpool (due to the blockade) are on their website

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...liverpool-lime-street-to-manchester-and-wigan

However, these have also been further amended from that published here (you can see these new amendments at RTT/OTT)

Thanks-that's very helpful. I assume that northern may get around to publishing the "revised-revised" timetable in due course? Whilst I'm happy to root around on RTT/OTT, there are many people who would be better served with something in print.

Cheers!

 

[B&I]

Even for those working the full 8.75hr working day, the timetables don't allow many round trips to be completed, which is why the convoluted pattern of services really ought to be chopped up and simplified into something more suited to a reliable simple timetable.

One driver/guard can do lots of trips on a route like Manchester - Glossop/ Rose Hill Marple during a diagram but running all of these long routes either means staff doing inefficient trips unsuited to fitting neatly into a working day *or* trying to relieve staff at somewhere busy like Oxford Road.

Exactly. The introduction of Northern Connect should have been an opportunity to separate Northern's services patterns into frequent stop local trains covering relatively short distances out of and between the major hubs, and longer distance limited stop ones covering more of Northern's territory. As well as placing less strain on infrastructure, it would also lessen the problem with training, as crew on local trains would not need to cover quite so much ground. However, I suppose this approach would raise other problems re capacity where local and longer-distance trains were squeezing through the same pinch points

 

[B&I]

I was told by a source over a week ago that the problems Northern are facing at the moment are all spreading from the coastal depots in land and that bosses are unhappy with how those depots have been managed - I guess that is Blackpool and Liverpool? The majority of cancellations do seeem to be on trains that could be operated from those depots so that makes sense I suppose.

Anyway, the same source told me yesterday that the director who managed them depots is being 'moved on' - it's a woman but I can't remember the name. I asked if that meant she is being sacked but was told it means she is being moved to another job.

I don't think it's that simple. I've been in Manchester roughly every second day over the last few weeks, and there are plenty of disrupted trains on locals there which I assume are run by Newton Heath-based trains. Also, most trains based at Blackpool and Allerton will at some point run over the Preston-Blackpool North line, or through the Manchester core, areas where most disruption seems to have occurred due to infrastructure problems. And is this one manager responsible for the failure to renew RDW, or employ enough drivers innthe first place ?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, there's one train an hour between Victoria and Wigan today, and they can't even manage that.

 

[muz379]

I'm absolutely not advocating breaching any hours limits , they exist for a purpose and rightly so. We all adhere to it just like we do to the alcohol rules

Im not talking about breaching any hour limits proscribed by hidden . Fatigue is not necessarilly just caused by the number of hours worked but the lack of decent rest inbetween and factors at home .

The base links are designed with the fatigue index in mind , you might not realize this but standards will have a part to play in approving links because ultimately the management of fatigue is a safety issue .

Drivers then deciding to work a different number and pattern of shifts to those contained in the links does then introduce the risk of fatigue .

Hence why Aslef regularly specifies that RDW agreements are to cover training purposes only to try and minimise the risk of drivers becoming fatigued and having incidents as a consequence . And hence why ASLEF does have a role to play in determining the criteria for RDW and monitoring its use . If you ever have an incident as a result of fatigue this will all become apparent to you very quickly when your recent and long term shift history will be a feature of any investigation .

 

[Bovverboy]

jayah said: ↑
It has already been mentioned here that on Northern, despite having a 4 day week on a 35hr contract which is an 8.75hr working day, when training drivers have a 7hr maximum.

This means from Buxton or Leeds there is scarcely time to get to Blackpool to conduct route learning before having to leave again.

Even for those working the full 8.75hr working day, the timetables don't allow many round trips to be completed, which is why the convoluted pattern of services really ought to be chopped up and simplified into something more suited to a reliable simple timetable.

I think it would be retrograde, indeed, if a service such as Leeds to Blackpool were to be split into two/three individual services. (Yes, I know it's split at Preston at the moment, but, hopefully, that situation won't prevail for too long).
But a Leeds-based crew could work to Blackburn (an hour and a half's running, approximately), wait for the return train (40+ minutes), and take it back to Leeds. That would, in total, be a comfortable half a shift, I imagine.
If that looks to be inefficient, I would say that it's necessary to have a little slack in a duty, as has been proved time and again just recently. The crew continuing to Blackpool wouldn't necessarily make it more efficient.
As to Buxton crews, I don't see why they need to know Blackpool, when everyone else is trained there will be more than enough crews qualified to work the route. That is, crews from Manchester (not all rotas), Liverpool, Wigan, Blackburn, and Blackpool.

 

[yorksrob]

Here's the thing.

The timetables are showing trains as running, at least until they are delayed then cancelled, yet when at the information booth, I'm told there are no trains as the workers are "on strike".

Are the workers on strike or not ?

 

[Jimmy Foster]

I don't think it's that simple. I've been in Manchester roughly every second day over the last few weeks, and there are plenty of disrupted trains on locals there which I assume are run by Newton Heath-based trains. Also, most trains based at Blackpool and Allerton will at some point run over the Preston-Blackpool North line, or through the Manchester core, areas where most disruption seems to have occurred due to infrastructure problems. And is this one manager responsible for the failure to renew RDW, or employ enough drivers innthe first place ?

Only passing on what I've heard but I imagine she is responsible for failing to have enough drivers at them depots (if that is indeed a proven reason for the issues) and for failing to have a proper plan in place for driver training that doesn't rely on RDW.

 

[jayah]

This is one of my favourite arguments.

The DfT are so bad at things that we must nationalise the railways... at which point the entire show will be run by, erm, the DfT

If the public sector Network Rail had delivered the Manchester - Blackpool electrification on time/ on budget and if the DfT had organised things better then we wouldn't be in this mess. Yet people still act as if the private sector are the baddies.

(I do enjoy the cognitive dissonance, whereby people complain so much about Network Rail, Dft, ORR, Politicians, Transport Secretary... and decide that the solution to this is nationalisation... I suppose they cling to the idea that the railway will magically be run by "Proper Railway Men" resurrected from previous generations, but I don't see it myself)



Even for those working the full 8.75hr working day, the timetables don't allow many round trips to be completed, which is why the convoluted pattern of services really ought to be chopped up and simplified into something more suited to a reliable simple timetable.

One driver/guard can do lots of trips on a route like Manchester - Glossop/ Rose Hill Marple during a diagram but running all of these long routes either means staff doing inefficient trips unsuited to fitting neatly into a working day *or* trying to relieve staff at somewhere busy like Oxford Road.

The amount of productive time on 8.75hr might be double for 7hr. I also suspect Union power is behind the fact Northern clearly have the wrong numbers of staff at their various depots and would benefit from the flexibility to say Depot 1 will not go to Station 2 and 5 drivers at Depot 3 are relocating to Depot 4

 

[B&I]

Im not talking about breaching any hour limits proscribed by hidden . Fatigue is not necessarilly just caused by the number of hours worked but the lack of decent rest inbetween and factors at home .

The base links are designed with the fatigue index in mind , you might not realize this but standards will have a part to play in approving links because ultimately the management of fatigue is a safety issue .

Drivers then deciding to work a different number and pattern of shifts to those contained in the links does then introduce the risk of fatigue .

Hence why Aslef regularly specifies that RDW agreements are to cover training purposes only to try and minimise the risk of drivers becoming fatigued and having incidents as a consequence . And hence why ASLEF does have a role to play in determining the criteria for RDW and monitoring its use . If you ever have an incident as a result of fatigue this will all become apparent to you very quickly when your recent and long term shift history will be a feature of any investigation .

Don't be daft. ASLEF are in fact doing this as part of a conspiracy to damage their own members' earning potential, and to provoke renationalisation