Northern's Problems in the North West

[AndrewE]

Fortunately, the rail replacement bus service put on from Preston to Blackpool has been very good and reliable (as much as road congestion allows).

so not really reliable then... That's the whole point of a railway service (as it is normally understood!)

 

[jayah]

They've got no say from Monday.
For west drivers the emergency timetable means Northern can amend or cancel any jobs.
Once a job is amended the driver can then be moved 60 mins either way from their booked start times and be made to work up to 60 mins longer than their booked shift for the day (with a max total enforced overtime of 3hr 30 per week). If job is fully cancelled rather than amended by Northern you can be moved 90 mins and have to work up to 90 mins extra.

So the only way to get ASLEF to work a full week, is to screw up so badly you need an emergency timetable.

 

[jayah]

To be fair, they haven't *said* it's rubbish, it just is.

The Poundland Chocolate was worth a dozen plated pieces of jewellery.

 

[Moonshot]

They've got no say from Monday.
For west drivers the emergency timetable means Northern can amend or cancel any jobs.
Once a job is amended the driver can then be moved 60 mins either way from their booked start times and be made to work up to 60 mins longer than their booked shift for the day (with a max total enforced overtime of 3hr 30 per week). If job is fully cancelled rather than amended by Northern you can be moved 90 mins and have to work up to 90 mins extra.

Of course drivers could also find themselves going home earlier than their shift finish time and get paid for it

 

[AndrewE]

I've done numerous trips all over the country by bus. I can't see why it's a problem for most people, but I accept that some can't cope even over short distances. How do you already know that the coach will have no toilets ? - I wasn't even aware that it was definitely going to be a coach !

Working backwards... I don't, it was a slip of the tongue/pen. Most rail-replacement vehicles I see around Crewe seem to be coaches but don't look as though they have toilets on board.
I've made planned journeys by bus too: they mostly go via main roads and town centres to the next one. Not wriggling in and out of station yards for an hour or so (when it should have been a 20-minute train journey more-or-less in a straight line.) Can't you see that?

 

[6Gman]

In any normal relationship they would negotiate only the rate of pay and the balance between how much overtime is contractural and discretionary. You certainly would not have a no RDW policy when there is plenty of work on, let alone on a ludicrous 35hr contract.

Don't most employees work to a contract? And don't most contracts specify fixed hours? And Rest Days are exactly that. Days of ... rest. Not work.

 

[jayah]

Don't most employees work to a contract? And don't most contracts specify fixed hours? And Rest Days are exactly that. Days of ... rest. Not work.

Very many contracts have flexibility not rigid hours. The idea of collectively negotiating the right to accept non contractural voluntary overtime is very unusual indeed.

 

[6Gman]

Very many contracts have flexibility not rigid hours. The idea of collectively negotiating the right to accept non contractural voluntary overtime is very unusual indeed.

Which rather makes a nonsense of the word "voluntary" surely?

 

[trainophile]

Well I wouldn't go on a bus or coach without a toilet on a journey that was likely to take more than an hour or so without a comfort stop. Bearing in mind that a lot of folk holidaying in June will be pensioners who like to avoid the school holidays, and may have certain conditions that come with the ageing process .

 

[cuccir]

To be fair to Northern, the Lakes line is quite bustitutable - it pretty much parallels the A591 and in early June it won't be anywhere near as busy as in school holidays; it's much easier than, say, the Barrow/Furness line which would involve significant diversions down B roads to Arnside/Cark

 

[jayah]

Which rather makes a nonsense of the word "voluntary" surely?

Company offers voluntary overtime at an enhanced rate of pay. Employee accepts. It's pretty simple stuff.

Most people who aren't on £60k for a 35hr week will fill their boots.

 

[nedchester]

Company offers voluntary overtime at an enhanced rate of pay. Employee accepts. It's pretty simple stuff.

Most people who aren't on £60k for a 35hr week will fill their boots.

Depends what level of “enhanced pay” the union wants..........

 

[Moonshot]

Very many contracts have flexibility not rigid hours. The idea of collectively negotiating the right to accept non contractural voluntary overtime is very unusual indeed.

Indeed it is unusual, and you would have to wonder what the public reaction would be if it was widely known that a lot of drivers are quite happy to " fill their boots" with overtime but are unable to do so because of an adherence to a Union stance , in effect, ASLEF are in dispute with the company without a ballot.

 

[B&I]

Indeed it is unusual, and you would have to wonder what the public reaction would be if it was widely known that a lot of drivers are quite happy to " fill their boots" with overtime but are unable to do so because of an adherence to a Union stance , in effect, ASLEF are in dispute with the company without a ballot.

If a company relies on abnormal working practices to get tbe job done, why should a union be obliged to accept that ? The solution to this problem lies in Northern's hands - employ enough drivers to cover the services they have agreed to provide in their franchise agreement.

 

[celdor]

As a non rail person I would just say that the problem with no drivers and consequently cancelled trains began long before the change to the timetable. We had a train to Manchester Airport
(Yes to catch a Plane) cancelled twice and my Son once in the 8 months prior to April.
Trains were showing as good and on time LOL when we went to bed at 11.pm and by 5 am
were cancelled - did they want to provide transport or pay for a taxi NO!!
First time we were on the platform before we found out - No Northern staff there to explain anything. Virgin staff said it happens all the time with this early train ( reiterated by the Taxi Driver) and the reason was the NORTHERN train was to be manned by TRANSPENNINE crew
who didnt turn up???. Interested in the "This happens all the time" I put an advise of state of journey on and got emails on many days of cancelled trains. Another thing I wondered was how were they still short of drivers in the period when most of the services Preston to Blackpool were by BUS?
What were the Preston to Blackpool Drivers doing?
Seemed to me they have just never had enough drivers.

 

[jayah]

If a company relies on abnormal.working practices to get tbe job done, why should a union be obliged to accept that ?

There is nothing abnormal about overtime.

Most companies in the real world have highly variable order books and if they miss a deadline it doesn't count as a PPM failure they lose a contract and employees lose their jobs.

Most employees don't have a job for life. They also have a variable and less than certain outlook. If there is plenty of good paying work they make hay.

It is the railway that is most unusual.

 

[B&I]

Makes it a bit awkward when it is clear that the inability of Northern to run a service is in no small part down to the 35hr week, 7hr training days and collectively negotiated agreement to offer and take overtime that are causing the problems.

See how long your local petrol station stays open when it is operating in such a framework.

Northern's inability to run a service arises from its unwillingness to employ enough drivers to cover the services it agreed to provide in its franchise agreement. ASLEF did not force that on it

 

[jayah]

Northern's inability to run a service arises from its unwillingness to employ enough drivers to cover the services it agreed to provide in its franchise agreement. ASLEF did not force that on it

As explained, no TOC or any organisation could ever employ people to run a reliable service in the sort of absurd framework that ASLEF have forced on the railway. Every shortage forces another capitulation that makes the shortage worse.

35hr week, 10hr day, 4 day week, no RDW, 7hr training days, retirement at 60. Next it will be a 32hr week and so on.

 

[B&I]

There is nothing abnormal about overtime.

Most companies in the real world have highly variable order books and if they miss a deadline it doesn't count as a PPM failure they lose a contract and employees lose their jobs.

Most employees don't have a job for life. They also have a variable and less than certain outlook. If there is plenty of good paying work they make hay.

It is the railway that is most unusual.

Overtime is by definition abnormal on the context of any particular job, as it is not part of normal contracted working hours.

The railway is a public service, not a profit-making business in a free competitive market. It is this sort of Thatcherite nonsense, and the consequent penny-pinching approach of companies lile Northern, which has got us into this mess in the first place.

 

[kevconnor]

In that part of the world most of the MPs are on the payroll of RMT / ASLEF.

A great many Labour MPs take money from the RMT at an individual level.

There is nothing like a dose of hyperbole to alarm the masses. All of three MP's declared some form of donation from the RMT in the latest release of Members Interests.

Corbyn, Jeremy (Islington North)
Hopkins, Kelvin (Luton North)
Mearns, Ian (Gateshead)

Or if you want to look at the last Parliament it was all of two.

Corbyn, Jeremy (Islington North)
Mearns, Ian (Gateshead)

Alternatively ASLEF has the giddy heights of one donation in the last parliament and zero in this parliament.

 

[B&I]

As explained, no TOC or any organisation could ever employ people to run a reliable service in the sort of absurd framework that ASLEF have forced on the railway. Every shortage forces another capitulation that makes the shortage worse.

35hr week, 10hr day, 4 day week, no RDW, 7hr training days, retirement at 60. Next it will be a 32hr week and so on.

No response, I see, to the issue of whether Northern actually employs enough drivers.

I have the teensiest suspicion that, like a lot of the unionphobes on this site, you may be a teensy bit jealous of people whose jobs have not yet been reduced to quasi-feudal status, as is the case for most people on here. Either that or, as suggested by your frequent defences of 'Mr' Grayling, you are allowing your ideological perspective to cloud your perception of the actual world on which most of us live. Your fact-free diatribes about railway union contribution to Labour funds tend to support this.

 

[B&I]

On a rail forum? Get real, I'm simply pointing out the reality. I seem to remember all sorts of issues with the West Coast Mainline upgrade some years ago, and yet here we are with record numbers of passengers going up and down the line in 2018

All that suggests is that the railway learned nothing from WCML, and is still awful at managing upgrade projects

 

[Bertie the bus]

To be fair to Northern, the Lakes line is quite bustitutable - it pretty much parallels the A591 and in early June it won't be anywhere near as busy as in school holidays; it's much easier than, say, the Barrow/Furness line which would involve significant diversions down B roads to Arnside/Cark

It probably isn't very wise for the rail industry to demonstrate which lines are bustitutable.

 

[B&I]

Melodramatic ? - yes, ridiculously so.

State of emergency ??????? - we are talking about some problems on some trains. Many are late, quite a few have been cancelled, and people are frustrated. That's it in a nutshell. Where's any emergency ??

Crisis ? What crisis ?

I will be sure to remember this next time you are having a go at the RMT for the disruption they cause to passengers' lives when they strike.

 

[Howardh]

These bustiturions - can they all take a wheelchair-bound passengers? I'm sure those that are normally routine public buses will, but what about coaches? The ones I have used in the past seem to have tight and steep stairwells. Has anyone any experience??

 

[B&I]

Why would a cynically transparent attempt to curry favour by pretending to care about passengers be better than honesty? Unions (in general, not just the RMT) don't care about anyone who isn't a member of them. That's their function and purpose.

Well someone might be taken in by it. Transparent and cynical dishonesty has not prevented a certain party winning the last 3 general elections

 

[daodao]

Absolutely shocking that one of the easiest lines to operate (literally could just be a shuttle) is being pulled, especially during the summer months.

They might as well close some of these lines, such as the Windermere branch, permanently.

 

[Moonshot]

If a company relies on abnormal working practices to get tbe job done, why should a union be obliged to accept that ? The solution to this problem lies in Northern's hands - employ enough drivers to cover the services they have agreed to provide in their franchise agreement.

ASLEF should have absolutely no say whatsoever in whether a driver accepts overtime in the form of rest day working. It's purely voluntary. This issue is now causing some real concern in mess rooms. When rest day working was in place, there was no issue covering the train plan.

 

[celdor]

. I seem to remember all sorts of issues with the West Coast Mainline upgrade some years ago, and yet here we are with record numbers of passengers going up and down the line in 2018

Maybe they are using that route as it has been hit and miss getting to Manchester Airport

 

[daodao]

The railway is a public service, not a profit-making business in a free competitive market. It is this sort of Thatcherite nonsense, and the consequent penny-pinching approach of companies lile Northern, which has got us into this mess in the first place.

Wrong - public transport is NOT a statutory public service. It is provided by private companies (apart from the handful of remaining municipal bus companies), and these exist to make a profit. National and local government choose in some instances (rapidly reducing in the case of bus services) to subsidise selected additional services in the public interest, but these wouldn't run if subsidies ceased. Look at what D&G buses are currently doing to their network.

Given the shambles that is currently Northern Rail, they should stop subsidising it and allow the unprofitable lines (probably most of them) to be closed down. It might be worth subsidising selected suburban commuter routes into the major conurbations, to be provided by another operator, in order to assist with reducing road traffic congestion, but rural routes like the Mid Cheshire line passenger service could be closed down completely with minimal impact.