Northern's Problems in the North West

[superkev]

I'm curious. In the terms of the franchises do train operators get fined for missing or short trains or is it just delay repay to the passengers?
K

 

[Howardh]

Why should they? If you want a direct door to door service take a taxi.

Give me thirty-five with the queen's head on and I will. I'll pm you my address and you can send a cheque. Both ways? £70 please, I'll send a reciept

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm curious. In the terms of the franchises do train operators get fined for missing or short trains or is it just delay repay to the passengers?
K

There will be financial penalties for cancellations and also financial penalties if their performance drops below a certain point. If their services get in the way of and delay other services because they are blocking platforms due to no driver there will be financial penalties for that also.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm curious. In the terms of the franchises do train operators get fined for missing or short trains or is it just delay repay to the passengers?
K

The complication here is the NR delay in completing electrification.
Northern can reasonably say their performance would have been better if Manchester-Bolton-Preston could be run with EMUs, leaving more DMUs for other lines.
Nor are they completely to blame for being late with training on new stock/routes.
But it doesn't answer all the questions.
They are also supposed to be operating an expanded timetable; the franchise spec includes several new services they are not attempting to run (eg Leeds-Chester).
On top of that, DfT is paying the costs of providing class 769 bi-modes which have not arrived yet, in lieu of cancellation of more electrification.
DfT set the dates for Northern to provide these improvements based on NR completions dates which were fiction.

 

[pt_mad]

What does it take to be a TOC breach of contract?

 

[Starmill]

Why should they? If you want a direct door to door service take a taxi.

What are you on about? Nobody said anything about 'door to door'. Rail replacement buses run from stations, not from people's houses (with minor exceptions!).

Where a direct train runs, a direct replacement bus is quite reasonable to expect. Indeed a direct bus from somewhere like Wigan North Western to Manchester Airport would probably be easier to organise than a bus into Manchester City Centre. Buses have been used in this fashion before in order to spread loadings and reduce queues. For the detail of will be done on this occasion, we will wait and see.

 

[cuccir]

The news is breaking that Northern will remove 165 trains a day from the timetable until the end of July.
--
Initially, this will be a two week withdrawal of trains from the Lakes Line!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Detail: (if you're on FB): https://www.facebook.com/BBCNW/?hc_...FA4i3jZuvsTcUaJxzA5aUC6XmmsbDfmleEpYw&fref=nf

Northern announce an emergency timetable from Monday. 6% are temporarily being removed until the end of July.

Here's the details from Northern:

Lakes Line
For an initial period of two weeks, we are removing all services on the Lakes Line to and from Preston, Lancaster and Oxenholme and will, instead, operate a replacement bus service to keep people who live, work and visit the Lake District on the move.

Blackpool
In and around Blackpool we are reducing services between Blackpool South and Preston, Preston and Colne and will remove a small number of off-peak services between Blackpool North and Manchester Airport. Other services between Blackpool North and Manchester Piccadilly will start/terminate at Manchester Oxford Road.

Lancashire
There will be reductions between Ormskirk and Preston and a small number between Blackburn and Southport via Manchester Victoria, whilst many services on the Lancaster to Morecambe line will be removed.

Manchester
We have reduced services on the Kirkby to Manchester Victoria line via Wigan, and the number of trains operating each day between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge.

Liverpool City Region
Additionally, there is a closure of Liverpool Lime Street for two months whilst significant work takes place on resignalling and remodelling of the infrastructure. We have reduced services during this interim period as a result of this closure. This will see three trains per hour run between Liverpool and Wigan/Manchester Victoria. On a number of these routes there will be alternative rail services available, as well as other modes of transport. Where available, rail replacement buses will also operate on affected routes with details provided locally for customers.

As a result of these amendments we will be operating 165 fewer services each day – equivalent to 6% of our daily total.

This sounds like mostly what I would do, but it does seem to me like it may not be enough.

 

[Starmill]

Press Assosciation tweets that 165 services per day to be cancelled over the next two months:

#Breaking Some 165 trains per day will be removed from schedules until the end of July to “stabilise service levels” amid major disruption following the introduction of a new timetable, train operator Northern says

https://twitter.com/PA/status/1002579503326158851?s=19

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actual timetables (showing buses replacing all the lopped trains) are available on Northern's website.

 

[Starmill]

This sounds like mostly what I would do, but it does seem to me like it may not be enough.

Given there were more than 400 cancelled or part-cancelled services on Tuesday, cancelling 165 in advance seems like a good balance.

 

[Moonshot]

Detail: (if you're on FB): https://www.facebook.com/BBCNW/?hc_...FA4i3jZuvsTcUaJxzA5aUC6XmmsbDfmleEpYw&fref=nf



This sounds like mostly what I would do, but it does seem to me like it may not be enough.

At least something is getting done to try and solve the issues. This actually reminds me of the Ryanair issue last year when they suspended 34 routes last year, all of which have now been reinstated. A lot of similarity with the current Northern problems, but let's not lose sight of the fact that ultimately, new trains will appear replacing Pacers , and overhead lines will appear on the Bolton line .

 

[Merseysider]

let's not lose sight of the fact that ultimately, new trains will appear replacing Pacers , and overhead lines will appear on the Bolton line.

Well yes, but there’s a good argument to be made that this balls up was entirely forseeable, and at least partly avoidable.

 

[RAPC]

If this helps to solve it, then fantastic. Fingers crossed that it makes a swift, material difference.

 

[Moonshot]

Well yes, but there’s a good argument to be made that this balls up was entirely forseeable, and at least partly avoidable.

No idea , easy with hindsight however. Nobody on this thread is in a position to comment on that other than speculation.

 

[Robertj21a]

it's serious enough for him to turn up and actually do something - except what, exactly can he do? So by default if he can't do anything - then what's the point of him being there? I actually now think a state of emergency isn't such a bad idea after all!
If doctors, surgeons, firemen, anyone in the emergency services simply can't get into work then someone could die. melodramatic, yes, but if you multiply the affected staff by number of days then the odds are increasing...

Melodramatic ? - yes, ridiculously so.

State of emergency ??????? - we are talking about some problems on some trains. Many are late, quite a few have been cancelled, and people are frustrated. That's it in a nutshell. Where's any emergency ??

 

[td97]

Was at Manchester Victoria earlier, the chorus of the automated announcer was belting across the station. As I arrived 5 carriages went ECS to Newton Heath from platform 6, no idea how long they had been clogging up that platform.
My intended connection was cancelled but became merged into a late running service, leaving about the same time as the cancelled train was due to. There was an issue with the original guard for the service, the replacement guard did say something along the lines of they refused to run the service, but it wasn't clear over the tannoy.
What is absolutely clear is that staff morale is rock bottom. The service somehow ended up with 2 guards, who I heard saying how dismal the current situation is, want to pack the job in etc. I felt really bad for them, and the other guards (and drivers) who really want to deliver a good service for passengers, but are completely let down by management and the undeliverable timetable.
The service ended up being terminated short of the final destination, so I look forward to Northern refunding my ticket all the way from Durham.
I made a point to leave out of the rear of the train and thank the guards for putting on the service (as neither was meant to), and they seemed to really appreciate the compliment given all the stick they have to put up with from other passengers.

 

[158756]

Timetables up: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

Windermere bus replacement for all services. Stalybridge-Manchester hourly off peak. Blackpool South, Colne, Ormskirk, Morecambe, Kirkby have random journeys replaced by buses. Blackpool - Manchester some fast services cancelled, not sure what else. And over in East Lancs we get random bits of the hourly Manchester service cancelled with no bus replacement.

I don't think the random cancellations, presumably the drivers turns that aren't covered, will make much sense to passengers.

 

[jayah]

Finally they are looking into the problem. Yet we have had 2 years of strike action and no politician has done anything about it. Its just been ignored.

In that part of the world most of the MPs are on the payroll of RMT / ASLEF.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The news is breaking that Northern will remove 165 trains a day from the timetable until the end of July.
--
Initially, this will be a two week withdrawal of trains from the Lakes Line!

Absolutely shocking that one of the easiest lines to operate (literally could just be a shuttle) is being pulled, especially during the summer months.

 

[158756]

Absolutely shocking that one of the easiest lines to operate (literally could just be a shuttle) is being pulled, especially during the summer months.

it's furthest from a depot and probably from any drivers as well, so in that sense it's not so easy to operate. (Speculating here - possibly because it was with TPE until fairly recently not so many drivers know the route?)

 

[Moonshot]

Absolutely shocking that one of the easiest lines to operate (literally could just be a shuttle) is being pulled, especially during the summer months.

Shocking or not, that's what's happening. And when service returns to normal, it will all be forgotten about

 

[Merseysider]

Shocking or not, that's what's happening. And when service returns to normal, it will all be forgotten about

That’s the thing though, it might not be forgotten about.

If you alienate enough of your customers often enough some of them just won’t come back.

 

[Bertie the bus]

but let's not lose sight of the fact that ultimately, new trains will appear replacing Pacers , and overhead lines will appear on the Bolton line .

Are you deliberately trying to wind passengers up?

 

[Smidster]

That’s the thing though, it might not be forgotten about.

If you alienate enough of your customers often enough some of them just won’t come back.

I agree - this isn't something that passengers are going to forget about tomorrow.

We are creatures of habit and once someone has switched - especially in these circumstances - you are going to have to work damn hard to fix the ill will that exists right now. Let's also not forgrt that this is on top of disruption from an industrial dispute which has been ongoing for more than a year.

 

[northwichcat]

In that part of the world most of the MPs are on the payroll of RMT / ASLEF.

How does that work? The RMT is unaffiliated with the Labour Party even if they are now encouraging their members to support Labour: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-aligns-towards-labour-whilst30618/

 

[Moonshot]

Are you deliberately trying to wind passengers up?

On a rail forum? Get real, I'm simply pointing out the reality. I seem to remember all sorts of issues with the West Coast Mainline upgrade some years ago, and yet here we are with record numbers of passengers going up and down the line in 2018

 

[LeylandLen]

Never mind who blames who , and whatever the many reasons for this abysmal treatment of passengers by Northern ; not helping by the sticky humid weather having an adverse effect on fed-up passengers , I hope regular season ticket holders who pay a lot of money up front for a season ticket are adequately compensated whenever things are back to normal !

 

[backontrack]

At least something is getting done to try and solve the issues. This actually reminds me of the Ryanair issue last year when they suspended 34 routes last year, all of which have now been reinstated. A lot of similarity with the current Northern problems, but let's not lose sight of the fact that ultimately, new trains will appear replacing Pacers , and overhead lines will appear on the Bolton line .

And the Lakes Line, as promised, will be electrifi-

Oh.

 

[jayah]

How does that work? The RMT is unaffiliated with the Labour Party even if they are now encouraging their members to support Labour: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-aligns-towards-labour-whilst30618/

A great many Labour MPs take money from the RMT at an individual level.