Northern's Problems in the North West

[Roose]

Until quite recently a 185 off the Barrow circuit stabled overnight at Blackpool North. Why it should stable there rather than Preston I don't know, but it may well have been staffed by a Barrow crew. I don't think there's any reason for Barrow crews to continue to sign Blackpool, though.

Maintaining a flexible workforce perhaps?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Both aviation and commuter passengers will abandon the services if they can't be trusted. I think Northern are unwise to disregard that and need to convey their serious concerns to DfT and Network Rail.

Northern don't need to convey their concerns. They need to get their act together and run a service. Lack of drivers with the required route knowledge isn't a concern for Northern, it is Northern's fault.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
The greatest gap I can find between successive departures for Liverpool is of 55 minutes - between 1635 (NT) and 1730 (TPE), the reason for that gap being the termination at Victoria of the intervening ex-Scarborough train. The ex-Scarborough train should have departed Victoria for Liverpool at 1656, so you can only blame NT/TPE for delaying you by 34 minutes.

On the basis of actually being there, I will explain. The 16.30 Northern never showed up. I don't know what happened to it. The 16.56 TPE was cancelled. I was therefore delayed approximately 59 minutes, when the 17.24 TPE left. Not entirely sure as I was too busy trying to board a single train carrying 3 trains' worth of people to check the exact time.

According to RTT, the '1630' NT stopper departed platform 4 at just gone 1635, having arrived from Liverpool at just short of 1625. Is that not what actually happened? There doesn't seem to be anything 'odd' about either journey.

 

[notlob.divad]

I know it is a bank holiday, so Sunday service, and bustitution on the Bolton Corridor for engineering. However looking on RTT the timetable seems to be holding together a lot better today. Compared to yesterday it is a vast improvement so far. Just 2 Northern cancellations through Oxford Road and 1 at Manchester Victoria.

A TPE from Newcastle was cancelled at Piccadilly 11 Late "due to an error having been made" which to me seems quite appropriate. Although I don't think the 'error' they are referring to is necessarily the same on I am.

 

[Bovverboy]

I know it is a bank holiday, so Sunday service

GB trains generally run to a weekday service on bank holidays, but a minority do not.

 

[Dore & Totley]

Northern Twitter team are stating in Twitter that drivers cannot work rest days due to ASLEF regulations. Is this 100% true?

 

[td97]

However looking on RTT the timetable seems to be holding together a lot better today.

Holding together better? With 59 published cancellations, and 34 other service updates as of writing.
Given there's rail replacement buses on both the Bolton & Atherton lines, and emergency rostering was meant to be only for last week, its not exactly great. PPM has been 79%/11%/10% so far today.
There was apparently a points failure near Stockport earlier today, but most reasons on Journey Check are for shortage of drivers.

 

[Tractor2018]

Is this 100% true?

..No.

 

[Dore & Totley]

..No.

I thought not but wanted confirmation before I replied to them. Thanks

 

[Chrism20]

Please forgive me if this has already been asked before (There are so many pages on this it would take an age to read everything) but given the Bolton elec delays and neither TPE or Northern having received any of their new orders for rolling stock (other than a handful of cascaded DMUs to northern) wouldn’t delaying the TT changes until December and running with the previous TT until then have been the sensible thing to do?

I realise it was in the franchise agreements that these changes were to take place but neither Northern or TPE expected Bolton to still be incomplete.

I understand that a lot of the issues are down to driver shortage but given the Bolton services should have been electric by now there must be serious overcrowding somewhere if all these services are still diesel.

Am I missing something? Whilst there was overcrowding in the old TT it was more robust than this

 

[Bovverboy]

Holding together better? With 59 published cancellations, and 34 other service updates as of writing.
Given there's rail replacement buses on both the Bolton & Atherton lines, and emergency rostering was meant to be only for last week, its not exactly great. PPM has been 79%/11%/10% so far today.
There was apparently a points failure near Stockport earlier today, but most reasons on Journey Check are for shortage of drivers.

What's happened to all the drivers who aren't working Bolton/Atherton line services?

 

[Bovverboy]

Dore & Totley said:
Northern Twitter team are stating in Twitter that drivers cannot work rest days due to ASLEF regulations. Is this 100% true?

..No.

Then what is 100% true? We only ever seem to get half a story about this Rest Day Working thing.

 

[notlob.divad]

Holding together better? With 59 published cancellations, and 34 other service updates as of writing.
Given there's rail replacement buses on both the Bolton & Atherton lines, and emergency rostering was meant to be only for last week, its not exactly great. PPM has been 79%/11%/10% so far today.
There was apparently a points failure near Stockport earlier today, but most reasons on Journey Check are for shortage of drivers.

It appears to have taken a nose dive not long after I posted that original message.

 

[Tractor2018]

Then what is 100% true? We only ever seem to get half a story about this Rest Day Working thing.

Others here have explained the truth, and better than I could. It's all in previous posts on the thread.

 

[Loop & Link]

As has been posted numerous times now, the Rest Day Working agreement between Northern & ASLEF came to a natural end, and where both parties are concerned it wasn’t renewed.

 

[Chester1]

Please forgive me if this has already been asked before (There are so many pages on this it would take an age to read everything) but given the Bolton elec delays and neither TPE or Northern having received any of their new orders for rolling stock (other than a handful of cascaded DMUs to northern) wouldn’t delaying the TT changes until December and running with the previous TT until then have been the sensible thing to do?

I realise it was in the franchise agreements that these changes were to take place but neither Northern or TPE expected Bolton to still be incomplete.

I understand that a lot of the issues are down to driver shortage but given the Bolton services should have been electric by now there must be serious overcrowding somewhere if all these services are still diesel.

Am I missing something? Whilst there was overcrowding in the old TT it was more robust than this

Northern has recieved more than a handful of units, I think about 20 so far and will recieve enough by September to start sending pacers off lease. They have a shortage of drivers for the new timetable but they have (just about) adequate stock.

In regards to delaying the timetable, it could have only been done at a late stage at a national level which would have caused an even larger backlash. The timetable is too interdependant to just delay Northern and TPE changes. If Northern had been provided sufficient notice a better timetable could have been written. The problems are due mixture of Northern understaffing to save money and the very late notice from NR that electrification wouldn't be done on time.

 

[underbank]

Northern has recieved more than a handful of units, I think about 20 so far and will recieve enough by September to start sending pacers off lease. They have a shortage of drivers for the new timetable but they have (just about) adequate stock.

So why are they still running jam packed single carriage Sprinters?

 

[Chrism20]

Northern has recieved more than a handful of units, I think about 20 so far and will recieve enough by September to start sending pacers off lease. They have a shortage of drivers for the new timetable but they have (just about) adequate stock.

In regards to delaying the timetable, it could have only been done at a late stage at a national level which would have caused an even larger backlash. The timetable is too interdependant to just delay Northern and TPE changes. If Northern had been provided sufficient notice a better timetable could have been written. The problems are due mixture of Northern understaffing to save money and the very late notice from NR that electrification wouldn't be done on time.

Thanks

 

[Chester1]

So why are they still running jam packed single carriage Sprinters?

I am not sure. As of 21st May - 24 units: 15 x 150, 3 x 153, 2 x 158 and 4 x 170.

Thought I would would post a list on what so far Northern have received...
GWR
150124 now in Northern Livery

150102 Now in Northern Livery Transferred 3rd December 2017
150122

150101 Transferred 3rd Feb NH
150123
150129

150108 Transferred 17th Feb
150120
150128

150104 Transferred 10th March
150106

150121 Transferred 17th March
150127

150130 Transferred 29th March
150131

153305 Transferred 14th May
153373
153380

ScotRail
158870 Transferred 4th Jan
158871

170475 Transferred 6th March
170476 now in Northern Livery, transferred 8th March
170477 Transferred 8th March
170478 Transferred 6th March

 

[js1000]

Northern don't need to convey their concerns. They need to get their act together and run a service. Lack of drivers with the required route knowledge isn't a concern for Northern, it is Northern's fault.

I'm not sure - the lack of train drivers it just one problem and I do not think it is the panacea many believe it to be.

I can only speak from a Manchester perspective to say that the trains through Manchester and to Manchester Airport have been shambolic all week. As I understand it trains through Piccadilly have gone up from 8tph to 11tph with a 12th planned by the end of the year.

We have to be honest that the entire rail service through Manchester has been decimated by a simple line inspection at Mauldeth Road on Friday and a points failure outside Piccadilly today. Previously there were more train slots through Manchester to allow late services to make up time. Additionally the routes were shorter (Man Airport to Piccadilly is not Crewe to Liverpool via Man Airport) and terminations for changing crew more logical. (Northern now change crew at the bottleneck of Oxford Road as opposed to Piccadilly)

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
Then what is 100% true? We only ever seem to get half a story about this Rest Day Working thing.

Others here have explained the truth, and better than I could. It's all in previous posts on the thread.

Fancy pinpointing them?

 

[Bovverboy]

As has been posted numerous times now, the Rest Day Working agreement between Northern & ASLEF came to a natural end, and where both parties are concerned it wasn’t renewed.

From all the posts I have read on this forum, I understand the position to be as follows.
1. According to ASLEF, the last RDW agreement expired and Northern didn't want to renew it.
2. According to Northern, they couldn't afford to renew the agreement because ASLEF set the bar too high.

Have I got it right up to now?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From all the posts I have read on this forum, I understand the position to be as follows.
1. According to ASLEF, the last RDW agreement expired and Northern didn't want to renew it.
2. According to Northern, they couldn't afford to renew the agreement because ASLEF set the bar too high.
Have I got it right up to now?

I think both of those views are from the union side.
I don't think we have heard anything from Northern (and won't if there are negotiations going on).

 

[Bovverboy]

I think both of those views are from the union side.
I don't think we have heard anything from Northern (and won't if there are negotiations going on).

Northern are alleged to have said this.

Dore & Totley said:
Northern Twitter team are stating in Twitter that drivers cannot work rest days due to ASLEF regulations.[/quote}

 

[Starmill]

I know it is a bank holiday, so Sunday service

Northern generally run a slightly modified version of the weekday service on Bank Holidays. South East TOCs generally run a Saturday service.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm not sure - the lack of train drivers it just one problem and I do not think it is the panacea many believe it to be.

I can only speak from a Manchester perspective to say that the trains through Manchester and to Manchester Airport have been shambolic all week. As I understand it trains through Piccadilly have gone up from 8tph to 11tph with a 12th planned by the end of the year.

We have to be honest that the entire rail service through Manchester has been decimated by a simple line inspection at Mauldeth Road on Friday and a points failure outside Piccadilly today. Previously there were more train slots through Manchester to allow late services to make up time. Additionally the routes were shorter (Man Airport to Piccadilly is not Crewe to Liverpool via Man Airport) and terminations for changing crew more logical. (Northern now change crew at the bottleneck of Oxford Road as opposed to Piccadilly)

I'm not saying an increase in services between Deansgate & Piccadilly isn't causing issues but it isn't the major factor in the current woes in the North West.

Pretty much everything that can be or needs to be said on the subject has already been said but if you look at when the thread was started (25 April) and look at past (the last couple of months) or present services around Preston you will see congestion around Oxford Road is insignificant by comparison with what we in Lancashire have had to put with.

 

[Mathew S]

View attachment 47368 View attachment 47368 Northern Twitter team are stating in Twitter that drivers cannot work rest days due to ASLEF regulations. Is this 100% true?

The whole statement from Northern says they have "been unable to ask drivers to work on their rest days for the last three months," which isn't quite the same thing.
This is the full statement from the Northern Press Office:

Northern has 1,529 trained drivers, 180 more than when we started the franchise in April 2016. However, availability of drivers to operate timetabled services has been an issue over the last few weeks in some locations for two unexpected reasons. Firstly, the completion of the electrification of the Blackpool to Preston line by Network Rail was delayed at the last minute, by three weeks, which meant that driver training became a real challenge. Before trains can operate on new lines, drivers have to undergo essential safety related route training, and for Blackpool this meant training 400+ drivers from all depots who operate this route. This means that some drivers are unavailable for their normal train driving duties whilst they are undergoing this training. Secondly, we have been unable to ask our drivers to work on their Rest Days for the last three months. Rest Day Working is a normal industry practice adopted when there are short-term training requirements, which enables us to absorb those exceptional or last minute training needs, and provide additional flexibility for train driver rosters. The combination of these two factors has meant that we have faced a shortage of available drivers in a number of locations which has, unfortunately, led to a far higher level of delays and cancellations to train services. We’re sorry for these delays and cancellations and we are working hard to complete our driver training. We are also working with our colleagues and ASLEF with a view to getting Rest Day Working reinstated, which in turn will further help improve driver availability.

I feel it's also worth pointing out that, despite being asked last Monday (21st) to provide one, by me and many other journalists, ASLEF have yet to make any kind of press statement.

 

[Dore & Totley]

The whole statement from Northern says they have "been unable to ask drivers to work on their rest days for the last three months," which isn't quite the same thing.
This is the full statement from the Northern Press Office:

I feel it's also worth pointing out that, despite being asked last Monday (21st) to provide one, by me and many other journalists, ASLEF have yet to make any kind of press statement.

Then the Twitter team should revoke their statement that it's due to "ASLEF regulations". Hopefully ASLEF's silence is due to Northern getting into negotiations regarding reinstating the Rest Day agreement that it appears Northern let lapse. To be honest I don't blame ASLEF for keeping quiet. None of this debacle can be laid at their door. To be fair to Northern since the franchise takeover they have been good on the PR front sending reps to our local station group, but they really have not covered themselves in the remoteness of glory here.

 

[northernchris]

Then the Twitter team should revoke their statement that it's due to "ASLEF regulations". Hopefully ASLEF's silence is due to Northern getting into negotiations regarding reinstating the Rest Day agreement that it appears Northern let lapse. To be honest I don't blame ASLEF for keeping quiet. None of this debacle can be laid at their door. To be fair to Northern since the franchise takeover they have been good on the PR front sending reps to our local station group, but they really have not covered themselves in the remoteness of glory here.

If anything this situation will have strengthened ASLEF's position

 

[CHAPS2034]

Update from me today - Cheadle Hulme to Rochdale and back.

Punctuality at CHU was pretty good this am but it was a disaster zone when I got down at lunchtime due to a points failure at Slade Lane which stopped the job for a while. Too much of the wrong type of sun perhaps?

So it was two slow buses into Manchester and passing under the bridge at Slade Lane things were running again...

Tram to Victoria and a RT Northern service to Rochdale from Platform 6. Interesting here as there were two trains at P6 both departing at 1436 - one to Southport and the one I travelled on towards Leeds. The platform boards at both ends showed the Southport train; there was no mention of the Leeds service which caused a good deal of passenger confusion. I assume as P6 is not split onto 6A and 6B, then it is impossible to put two different trains on the boards on P6? Something needs to be done to sort this.

Anyway a clear on-train announcement that we were the Leeds train saw several passengers rapidly get off. Meanwhile a TPE 185 had been abandoned in P4 due to "an issue with the train crew".

On the way back from Rochdale, the 1714 stopper was sent out RT in front of the express from Clitheroe (due 1709) which was 8L at Rochdale and therefore became 15 late at Victoria. I was in time to catch a Darlington - Airport TPE running 7L which promptly took 10 minutes from Oxford Rd to Piccadilly and made me miss my connection or so I thought. But no, it was delayed too so I made it!

There was obviously a load of congestion in the Piccadilly area, as the TPE I had been on spent 5 minutes in P13 awaiting a path and I noted a train stopped at every signal on the down fast all the way out to Levenshulme.

So today seems to have been disrupted again but it seems perhaps there was as much with infrastructure issues as you may expect from time to time as the new timetable. I wonder what tomorrow will bring?

Meanwhile I feel for all the front line staff who have to deal with this and the signallers who are facing unusual situations all the time instead of some of the time. If this continues for any time, I would suggest there is a possibility of people burning out which will just exacerbate the situation.

Interesting times...