Northern's Problems in the North West

[Bletchleyite]

Okay, accepting that potentially an emergency timetable would make for a more reliable (ie. with fewer planned - as opposed to truly last-minute - cancellations), how would you deal with the overcrowding on e.g the Southport or Atherton lines? You can't run longer trains, without building longer platforms.

One option is to add relief buses if the train lengths are maxed out.

Another might be to bustitute at quiet times so you can use the staff to operate more peak services.

 

[Mathew S]

One option is to add relief buses if the train lengths are maxed out.

Another might be to bustitute at quiet times so you can use the staff to operate more peak services.

See, this is where I have a problem with it. The histeria that went on when Northern tried to run bustitutions for just a few weeks earlier on the Bolton line was ridiculous. And, even though I don't think it was justified, I'm not sure that another widespread outbreak of RRB's is wise.

We're not going to agree, but personally I'd rather Northern just run what they can, as best they can, and use RRBs sparingly where there's no alternative, which is what they seem to be doing at the moment. Each to their own I guess.

 

[Starmill]

Okay, accepting that potentially an emergency timetable would make for a more reliable (ie. with fewer planned - as opposed to truly last-minute - cancellations), how would you deal with the overcrowding on e.g the Southport or Atherton lines? You can't run longer trains, without building longer platforms.

What do you mean? If trains are to be cancelled, they are to be cancelled, and that will have an effect on capacity regardless of whether it is part of an emergency timetable or not. Running an emergency timetable would mean only one thing more predictability in when trains will run. It won't change the actual capacity that can be delivered. If trains in addition to the emergency timetable can be run, then great, run them. If they can't, people can have more confidence in the reduced service. I don't see what capacity has to do with it.

 

[Starmill]

And, even though I don't think it was justified, I'm not sure that another widespread outbreak of RRB's is wise.

So you prefer outright cancellations to bus replacement? I doubt many would agree with that, I certainly don't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The blame which is attributable, I would argue to NR for the current issues is the condensed nature of Blackpool training which has had to take place. Yes, Northern could have recruited more drivers, but they evidently had reason to believe they wouldn't need to.

I think, with all due respect, that that is complete nonsense. The training had to take place at some time, the issues have been prolonged far beyond the training problems. The issue is staffing. The issue is management relying on rest day working to cover an excess of annual leave being booked (see Ryanair for further details) and then, despite being reliant on goodwill, proceeding to trash that goodwill through appalling industrial relations.

Fundamentally, the problem is Arriva.

 

[B&I]

The combination of factors are:
a) Arriva are rubbish;
b) Arriva are rubbish; and,
c) Arriva are rubbish.

These trains are not being cancelled due to lack of stock. The shortforms I can forgive: they are Network Rail's fault.

They are being cancelled due to lack of drivers. Drivers are not working rest days because of appalling industrial relations; that is an Arriva management failure. Arriva have authorised large swathes of annual leave without ensuring that they have sufficient cover; that is an Arriva management failure.

Shrugging all this off with "check before you travel" is utterly wrong.

If Arriva cannot maintain their timetable then they ought to instigate an emergency timetable that they can maintain. And then, and as soon as possible, they should be stripped of the franchise.

Quite. How anyone can find any excuse for Northern's actions is absolutely beyond me

 

[B&I]

I didn't expect you (or anyone else) to agree. I did make clear that I was giving my own, personal perspective.

Let me explain a little further: In my particular case, I have a choice between commuting on a route which sees 1tph, or a route which sees 5tph (shortly to be 6tph, and then 7tph in future). Currently, there are regular cancellations (1 train each hour, generally) on the more frequent of those routes, but it's not a big deal because the longest wait for the next service is but a few minutes. I have yet to see any cancellations on the 1tph route. To me, that is intelligent and sensible decision making. If you have no choice but to cancel a service, cancel one where there is a readily available alternative, rather than one which will delay passengers by an hour.

My personal experience is that the current situation is most certainly nothing even approaching a 'meltdown' despite the apocalyptic terms used by some armchair commentators on here and in the press.

I also wouldn't agree that there isn't sufficient information for passengers. http://www.journeycheck.com/northern/ gives a comprehensive and, seemingly, up to date list of service changes. Any passenger who doesn't bother to check before they travel is just inviting trouble - even at the best of times - and on their own head be it.

Of course, the current situation is many miles from perfect, but my broader point was, mostly, "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs." I'm more than willing to put up with short-term, minor, irritation - which is all the current problems are in my area - in the knowledge that by the end of this franchise the service will have improved beyond all recognition.

How is any of this NECESSARY in order to achieve a better service ? Why would it not have been possible to improve the service without mass cancellationa due to lack of staff, simply by bothering to renew RDW arrangements ?

 

[Starmill]

The issue is management relying on rest day working to cover an excess of annual leave being booked (see Ryanair for further details) and then, despite being reliant on goodwill, proceeding to trash that goodwill through appalling industrial relations.

This seems to be a well-supported explanation across the board. Of course, some people are simply in denial!

 

[td97]

Some cancellations on JourneyCheck are now showing as 'due to a shortage of conductors'. Is this a new issue to add to the lack of drivers?

 

[woodmally]

Two very interesting developments. Firstly a petition I would encourage you to sign. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/206088 Second search Northern Fail on Google play and there is an interesting app.

 

[BlueFox]

search Northern Fail on Google play and there is an interesting app.

Direct link to the app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nickyyo.northernfail

 

[td97]

Seems like it was created by somebody with little knowledge of the industry

 

[Andyh82]

I would have expected a forum like this to be above social media style uninformed ‘strip them of their franchise lol’ petitions.

Maybe to those people who have signed, maybe the previous franchise should be brought back, or indeed, the ones before that!

 

[The_Engineer]

Two very interesting developments. Firstly a petition I would encourage you to sign. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/206088 Second search Northern Fail on Google play and there is an interesting app.

Not signing that! Very badly worded, factually incorrect and emotive.

 

[northernchris]

There's still some things which don't appear to make sense, unless I'm missing something really obvious. Before the Blackpool line reopened, the cancellation level was nowhere near the level it's at now, which suggests the withdrawal of RDW for drivers isn't the main cause. Also, the majority of cancellations currently involve depots which sign Blackpool, so there does appear to be some truth in Northern's statements. Serco/Abellio went through a similar phase a few years ago (possibly 2013/2014?) with traincrew shortages but managed to return standards to an acceptable level so I suspect this will be the case here

Northern are currently going through a period of having to retrain drivers on the Preston-Blackpool line as well as route and traction training crew from other depots. Given this is a rarity it can't reasonably be expected for any operator to recruit staff short term to cover the training given the timescales involved. Even if RDW was available, it's still voluntary and I've no doubt cancellations would still be occurring although at a lower level.

The other factor is surely Northern have new drivers and conductors due to start imminently, as the initial proposed timetable change required additional resources, and the staff would have been training ready for the supposed new services from Monday. Assuming they are still due to start this could relieve some pressure

 

[185143]

'I know there's loads of you on here for Manchester Airport, as Northern have cancelled their service for the millionth time this week'

Said the conductor of my <TOC name not posted> (not Northern) train yesterday morning!

 

[CN75]

The combination of factors are:
a) Arriva are rubbish;
b) Arriva are rubbish; and,
c) Arriva are rubbish.

These trains are not being cancelled due to lack of stock. The shortforms I can forgive: they are Network Rail's fault.

They are being cancelled due to lack of drivers. Drivers are not working rest days because of appalling industrial relations; that is an Arriva management failure. Arriva have authorised large swathes of annual leave without ensuring that they have sufficient cover; that is an Arriva management failure.

Shrugging all this off with "check before you travel" is utterly wrong.

If Arriva cannot maintain their timetable then they ought to instigate an emergency timetable that they can maintain. And then, and as soon as possible, they should be stripped of the franchise.

Fundamentally, it’s the same management personnel that it has been for years. The train crews are also mostly the same. The difference is the industrial relations climate, and Arriva proceeding forwards with their contracted DOO plans and showing no sign of abandoning them.

The RMT’s strategy depends on making the relationships as toxic in Arriva as possible to bolster staff support for industrial action and paint the employer as the root of all evil.

SWR and GTR had the same problems for a while. The DfT will contractually cover the costs for Arriva if they can show a trend relating to unofficial industrial action, which sudden decrease in overtime take-up would be.

 

[Karl]

More cancellations on the Colne Blackpool service. The 0821 and 0921 from Bamber Bridge both cancelled. It's the last day of loco hauled from Preston and I'll have to catch the bloody bus to town now to catch the 1003 to Barrow!

*EDIT* Oops! Apologies, the 0921 is only cancelled between Colne and Burnley. Cumbrian Coast here I go!

"This service was cancelled between Colne and Burnley Central due to an issue with the train crew (TG)."

 

[B&I]

Fundamentally, it’s the same management personnel that it has been for years. The train crews are also mostly the same. The difference is the industrial relations climate, and Arriva proceeding forwards with their contracted DOO plans and showing no sign of abandoning them.

The RMT’s strategy depends on making the relationships as toxic in Arriva as possible to bolster staff support for industrial action and paint the employer as the root of all evil.

SWR and GTR had the same problems for a while. The DfT will contractually cover the costs for Arriva if they can show a trend relating to unofficial industrial action, which sudden decrease in overtime take-up would be.

Please explain how the RMT are responsible for Northern failing to renew a rest day working agreement with ASLEF

 

[Tetchytyke]

Fundamentally, it’s the same management personnel that it has been for years.

Indeed, and there have been industrial relations problems in the north west since FNW and ATN were merged, to be honest. But the buck stops with Arriva now: they should fix it or forfeit the franchise.

But yes, with the senior DfT management (not the RMT who, of course, don't represent drivers and don't negotiate a RDW agreement with ASLEF) pushing for a toxic atmosphere, I'll not expect much to change. It's pathetic. But that's Tories for you.

 

[Overspeed110]

Fundamentally, it’s the same management personnel that it has been for years. The train crews are also mostly the same. The difference is the industrial relations climate, and Arriva proceeding forwards with their contracted DOO plans and showing no sign of abandoning them.

The RMT’s strategy depends on making the relationships as toxic in Arriva as possible to bolster staff support for industrial action and paint the employer as the root of all evil.

SWR and GTR had the same problems for a while. The DfT will contractually cover the costs for Arriva if they can show a trend relating to unofficial industrial action, which sudden decrease in overtime take-up would be.

No it's not the same management, there's lots of new "managers" involved.
No it's not mostly the same traincrews, some yes, mostly, no.
I know many people at Northern and i've been told of the stunts the management are pulling together with the new Arriva brand combative, aggressive management style, it's not purely down to the RMT the current terrible relations between hopeless management and traincrews.
Finally there's no trend of unofficial industrial action, and there's no sudden decrease in overtime take up.
THE REST DAY AGREEMENT WAS NOT RENEWED, WITHOUT THAT DRIVERS CANNOT WORK THEIR REST DAYS, WHAT PART OF THAT DO SOME PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND????

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passengers don’t care, really. All they care about is that incompetent management at Arriva is causing them not to receive the service they are paying for.

 

[theironroad]

No it's not the same management, there's lots of new "managers" involved.
No it's not mostly the same traincrews, some yes, mostly, no.
I know many people at Northern and i've been told of the stunts the management are pulling together with the new Arriva brand combative, aggressive management style, it's not purely down to the RMT the current terrible relations between hopeless management and traincrews.
Finally there's no trend of unofficial industrial action, and there's no sudden decrease in overtime take up.
THE REST DAY AGREEMENT WAS NOT RENEWED, WITHOUT THAT DRIVERS CANNOT WORK THEIR REST DAYS, WHAT PART OF THAT DO SOME PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND????

Well that's a different interpretation of how free days are worked.......

 

[evoluzione]

Could be even worse next week, Emergency Rostering will be in place.

Drivers new links have not been posted on time, so we will be booking on at our old pre timetable change times.

All mutual swaps have been cancelled by rosters, any leave above depot quota will not be given even if is cover is available.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

I'll largely refrain from my own opinions, but it's worth pointing out that planning are absolutely swamped with work at the moment and it's not necessarily the fault of Northern. Obviously they have had to rewrite the entire timetable in the last few weeks due to the electrification work overrunning, which took up a huge amount of time. The same electrification work has led to most weekends requiring a replacement timetable for services through Bolton and Atherton, and this will continue into the summer. You've also got major engineering work at Lime Street in June and July with multiple stages of work and service availability, and emergency timetables have been needed for Blackpool too. On top of that, there's two or three strike days a month, the next two days being done on a very short turn-around based on the new timetables and so requiring a complete rewrite of previous plans. And some of you are expecting an emergency timetable to be created for the entirety of the North West at short notice?

To me, that's where the real impact of the strikes is. Yes, the front line services get scaled back for a day, which is pretty significant, but things usually run smoothly. The biggest effect is on the behind-the-scenes functions. You've got managers who have had to take time out to become emergency conductors. You've got work being put off for days or weeks to prepare for strikes, as well as the additional workload of preparing for strike days. And it squeezes the budgets too, which means departments have less time and resources to work with

Customers recognise that the strikes are happening, and they recognise that Northern are appearing incompetent and not presenting themselves well, but they don't seem to be putting two and two together. All they see is the direct impact of the strikes to their service on a strike day

It's easy to blame one body at this stage, whether it be that broad sweeping generalisation of "management", the unions, "Arriva", or Network Rail. It's a lot more complicated than that and I don't think anyone truly knows exactly where the source of it is, if there even is one source. Certainly Chinese whispers through customers have led to some really outlandish theories about what's going on, but aside from the company, no one is really making any effort to provide any explanations or tackle these urban myths - the media are just riding the hostility to sell papers and get clicks, and it also really isn't helping having politicians in the region stoking up ill feeling in the public with vague threats. A lot of the more ridiculous theories go unchallenged and some of them have grown roots - some are still convinced there are no new trains on the way. I'm not one for the whole "fake news" thing, but as someone pointed out earlier, people only want to hear what they want to hear with the railways at the moment; in my job I'm routinely called a liar for providing factual explanations, and it makes you feel entirely powerless in challenging absurd theories and assertions

It's making for a very uncomfortable, emotionally-charged atmosphere on the frontline - while I appreciate the disruption is enormously frustrating and inconvenient, the anger is directly falling on the wrong people, and I'm worried it's going to boil over and something serious could happen

 

[Red Devil]

A temporary solution would be a new RDW agreement. That would ease a bit of the tension.
But apparently northern have made no overtures as to wanting one and rumour has it that they couldn't afford it anyway

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

A temporary solution would be a new RDW agreement. That would ease a bit of the tension.
But apparently northern have made no overtures as to wanting one and rumour has it that they couldn't afford it anyway

Rumour has it that the RDW was withdrawn "to punish staff for going on strike". Of course, that's complete nonsense. A statement has gone out to staff and stakeholders today from the MD saying "we are working with ASLEF with a view to getting Rest Day Working reinstated which will further ease the situation"

 

[Red Devil]

Rumour has it that the RDW was withdrawn "to punish staff for going on strike". Of course, that's complete nonsense. A statement has gone out to staff and stakeholders today from the MD saying "we are working with ASLEF with a view to getting Rest Day Working reinstated which will further ease the situation"

Complete baloney that rumour as anyone who knows about the railway would know.
"Punishing members for going on strike " when they haven't even been on strike!!
That's progress if they can sort that agreement out. As at the moment it's the ONLY thing that can ease this mess. Because as I've repeatedly said this will be the status quo for the foreseeable future.

 

[B&I]

I'll largely refrain from my own opinions, but it's worth pointing out that planning are absolutely swamped with work at the moment and it's not necessarily the fault of Northern. Obviously they have had to rewrite the entire timetable in the last few weeks due to the electrification work overrunning, which took up a huge amount of time. The same electrification work has led to most weekends requiring a replacement timetable for services through Bolton and Atherton, and this will continue into the summer. You've also got major engineering work at Lime Street in June and July with multiple stages of work and service availability, and emergency timetables have been needed for Blackpool too. On top of that, there's two or three strike days a month, the next two days being done on a very short turn-around based on the new timetables and so requiring a complete rewrite of previous plans. And some of you are expecting an emergency timetable to be created for the entirety of the North West at short notice?

To me, that's where the real impact of the strikes is. Yes, the front line services get scaled back for a day, which is pretty significant, but things usually run smoothly. The biggest effect is on the behind-the-scenes functions. You've got managers who have had to take time out to become emergency conductors. You've got work being put off for days or weeks to prepare for strikes, as well as the additional workload of preparing for strike days. And it squeezes the budgets too, which means departments have less time and resources to work with

Customers recognise that the strikes are happening, and they recognise that Northern are appearing incompetent and not presenting themselves well, but they don't seem to be putting two and two together. All they see is the direct impact of the strikes to their service on a strike day

It's easy to blame one body at this stage, whether it be that broad sweeping generalisation of "management", the unions, "Arriva", or Network Rail. It's a lot more complicated than that and I don't think anyone truly knows exactly where the source of it is, if there even is one source. Certainly Chinese whispers through customers have led to some really outlandish theories about what's going on, but aside from the company, no one is really making any effort to provide any explanations or tackle these urban myths - the media are just riding the hostility to sell papers and get clicks, and it also really isn't helping having politicians in the region stoking up ill feeling in the public with vague threats. A lot of the more ridiculous theories go unchallenged and some of them have grown roots - some are still convinced there are no new trains on the way. I'm not one for the whole "fake news" thing, but as someone pointed out earlier, people only want to hear what they want to hear with the railways at the moment; in my job I'm routinely called a liar for providing factual explanations, and it makes you feel entirely powerless in challenging absurd theories and assertions

It's making for a very uncomfortable, emotionally-charged atmosphere on the frontline - while I appreciate the disruption is enormously frustrating and inconvenient, the anger is directly falling on the wrong people, and I'm worried it's going to boil over and something serious could happen

If it is correct that Northern have failed to renew the RDW agreement, and if that is the basic reason why they do not have enough drivers, how are any of those other factors of any particular relevance ?

 

[northwichcat]

I'll largely refrain from my own opinions, but it's worth pointing out that planning are absolutely swamped with work at the moment and it's not necessarily the fault of Northern. Obviously they have had to rewrite the entire timetable in the last few weeks due to the electrification work overrunning, which took up a huge amount of time. The same electrification work has led to most weekends requiring a replacement timetable for services through Bolton and Atherton, and this will continue into the summer. You've also got major engineering work at Lime Street in June and July with multiple stages of work and service availability, and emergency timetables have been needed for Blackpool too. On top of that, there's two or three strike days a month, the next two days being done on a very short turn-around based on the new timetables and so requiring a complete rewrite of previous plans. And some of you are expecting an emergency timetable to be created for the entirety of the North West at short notice?

In a sense isn't that what will happen anyway for next Thursday and Saturday when the RMT members are on strike even if the emergency timetable contains more replacement buses than trains?