Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[61653 HTAFC]

Even though they're not staying, the 153 I'm on (2031 HUD - MIR) seems to have been given a bit of TLC with seat covers deep cleaned and all tables replaced with slimline ones with a wood-effect surface, much like those on the one refurbished 155. EDIT: unit is 153324, by the way.

Once again it seems that you CAN polish a "Douglas"!

 

[northwichcat]

So is 170s to Chester instead of 195s or is it an interim measure like 769s to Windermere?

I'm sure someone mentioned ironing board seats with extra padding. The reason claimed was people said about the extra leg room on the ironing board seats, despite the 'seats roadshow' not giving any leg room indication.

 

[xotGD]

If seats from 156s are being used in 150s, does that mean that the 150s will be 2+2?

 

[387star]

I went to a Northern event today for invited stakeholders concerning new and refurbished trains. It was presented by the Head of New Build and the Head of Train Refurbishment.
Some of this is not strictly relevant to this forum, but is included for interest.
Concerning corrosion, class 150 and 155 are the worst, with 155s more a problem because the Leyland drawings no longer exist. 158/319 are generally OK. I don't remember 156s being mentioned, but I think they are also OK.
Corrosion is the responsibility of the ROSCOs, and most of the delay has been caused by the need to determine extent, negotiate contracts for rectification with a view to a further 10 year life, and to do the work.
150276 has got an entirely new roof.
The seats for the new trains have been decided. On being asked if they would be thick and soft, the answer I thought was evasive, and although assured they would be comfortable, they seemed from photographs to be slightly more padded ironing boards. We will see.
156 & 158 are to get these new seats.
150s are to get seats refurbished to the new style. Some seats ex 156s are to be refurbished in that style and put into 150s.
150142 is to go to Crewe next week and will be the first to receive the new style refurbished seats. The next 155 will also get these.
Luggage space on 156/158 to be increased.
150s ex LM & GW will arrive Dec 17 to Feb 18. Earlier work should mean they do not have corrosion issues.
12 150/1s are to be converted to 3 car by the addition of a coach ex 150/2.
8 158s ex Scotrail to begin to arrive Jan 18
16 170s ex Scotrail to arrive from Feb 18, the first ones to Leeds. Later will work Leeds - Southport/Chester.
11 769s on order instead of 8. First to be tested on the GCR in Feb 18, then to Allerton. Expected use on Stalybridge-Southport, Barrow and Windermere services.
156s to transfer from Allerton to Newton Heath.
158s with Perkins engines to go to Heaton for the Carlisle service.
The first of the 98 new trains will be factory tested in Nov/Dec 17, track tested at Velim Jan-Mar 18, UK testing Jun-Oct 18, into service from Dec 18. All have 2+2 seating and A/C. The diesels will have 750hp MTU engines.
Any of this could of course change and it was made clear to us that route allocation of types of stock is far from decided.
The impression given is that these events are now being managed by very keen and experienced staff.

Excellent post thank you

 

[Malay States]

I would take the 170s to Chester as just being the current proposal. The will be maintained at Neville Hill, so it adds up. I think 769s to Windermere will be for the long term, unless Network Rail reinstate electrification.

 

[Malay States]

If seats from 156s are being used in 150s, does that mean that the 150s will be 2+2?

No, he said the old units will remain 3+2. You might think that 156 seats would be too big. I don't know the answer to that.

 

[jshaw]

I went to a Northern event today for invited stakeholders concerning new and refurbished trains. It was presented by the Head of New Build and the Head of Train Refurbishment.
Some of this is not strictly relevant to this forum, but is included for interest.
Concerning corrosion, class 150 and 155 are the worst, with 155s more a problem because the Leyland drawings no longer exist. 158/319 are generally OK. I don't remember 156s being mentioned, but I think they are also OK.
Corrosion is the responsibility of the ROSCOs, and most of the delay has been caused by the need to determine extent, negotiate contracts for rectification with a view to a further 10 year life, and to do the work.
150276 has got an entirely new roof.
The seats for the new trains have been decided. On being asked if they would be thick and soft, the answer I thought was evasive, and although assured they would be comfortable, they seemed from photographs to be slightly more padded ironing boards. We will see.
156 & 158 are to get these new seats.
150s are to get seats refurbished to the new style. Some seats ex 156s are to be refurbished in that style and put into 150s.
150142 is to go to Crewe next week and will be the first to receive the new style refurbished seats. The next 155 will also get these.
Luggage space on 156/158 to be increased.
150s ex LM & GW will arrive Dec 17 to Feb 18. Earlier work should mean they do not have corrosion issues.
12 150/1s are to be converted to 3 car by the addition of a coach ex 150/2.
8 158s ex Scotrail to begin to arrive Jan 18
16 170s ex Scotrail to arrive from Feb 18, the first ones to Leeds. Later will work Leeds - Southport/Chester.
11 769s on order instead of 8. First to be tested on the GCR in Feb 18, then to Allerton. Expected use on Stalybridge-Southport, Barrow and Windermere services.
156s to transfer from Allerton to Newton Heath.
158s with Perkins engines to go to Heaton for the Carlisle service.
The first of the 98 new trains will be factory tested in Nov/Dec 17, track tested at Velim Jan-Mar 18, UK testing Jun-Oct 18, into service from Dec 18. All have 2+2 seating and A/C. The diesels will have 750hp MTU engines.
Any of this could of course change and it was made clear to us that route allocation of types of stock is far from decided.
The impression given is that these events are now being managed by very keen and experienced staff.

Excellent post, thank you, any idea when the 158s will be transferred over to Heaton?

 

[507021]

I went to a Northern event today for invited stakeholders concerning new and refurbished trains. It was presented by the Head of New Build and the Head of Train Refurbishment.
Some of this is not strictly relevant to this forum, but is included for interest.
Concerning corrosion, class 150 and 155 are the worst, with 155s more a problem because the Leyland drawings no longer exist. 158/319 are generally OK. I don't remember 156s being mentioned, but I think they are also OK.
Corrosion is the responsibility of the ROSCOs, and most of the delay has been caused by the need to determine extent, negotiate contracts for rectification with a view to a further 10 year life, and to do the work.
150276 has got an entirely new roof.
The seats for the new trains have been decided. On being asked if they would be thick and soft, the answer I thought was evasive, and although assured they would be comfortable, they seemed from photographs to be slightly more padded ironing boards. We will see.
156 & 158 are to get these new seats.
150s are to get seats refurbished to the new style. Some seats ex 156s are to be refurbished in that style and put into 150s.
150142 is to go to Crewe next week and will be the first to receive the new style refurbished seats. The next 155 will also get these.
Luggage space on 156/158 to be increased.
150s ex LM & GW will arrive Dec 17 to Feb 18. Earlier work should mean they do not have corrosion issues.
12 150/1s are to be converted to 3 car by the addition of a coach ex 150/2.
8 158s ex Scotrail to begin to arrive Jan 18
16 170s ex Scotrail to arrive from Feb 18, the first ones to Leeds. Later will work Leeds - Southport/Chester.
11 769s on order instead of 8. First to be tested on the GCR in Feb 18, then to Allerton. Expected use on Stalybridge-Southport, Barrow and Windermere services.
156s to transfer from Allerton to Newton Heath.
158s with Perkins engines to go to Heaton for the Carlisle service.
The first of the 98 new trains will be factory tested in Nov/Dec 17, track tested at Velim Jan-Mar 18, UK testing Jun-Oct 18, into service from Dec 18. All have 2+2 seating and A/C. The diesels will have 750hp MTU engines.
Any of this could of course change and it was made clear to us that route allocation of types of stock is far from decided.
The impression given is that these events are now being managed by very keen and experienced staff.

Excellent post, thanks for sharing this.

 

[507021]

I've read something on a Facebook group which states 150102, 104, 106, 108, 122 and 124 are now Northern units, albeit subleased to GWR.

 

[387star]

No, he said the old units will remain 3+2. You might think that 156 seats would be too big. I don't know the answer to that.

The ex North Western Trains 156s have chapmans which I believe are fitted in a 3+2 configuration in the ex North Western 150s so perhaps these ones will replace ashbournes in the 3+2 150s

 

[superkev]

I went to a Northern event today for invited stakeholders concerning new and refurbished trains. It was presented by the Head of New Build and the Head of Train Refurbishment.
Some of this is not strictly relevant to this forum, but is included for interest.
Concerning corrosion, class 150 and 155 are the worst, with 155s more a problem because the Leyland drawings no longer exist. 158/319 are generally OK. I don't remember 156s being mentioned, but I think they are also OK.
Corrosion is the responsibility of the ROSCOs, and most of the delay has been caused by the need to determine extent, negotiate contracts for rectification with a view to a further 10 year life, and to do the work.
150276 has got an entirely new roof.
The seats for the new trains have been decided. On being asked if they would be thick and soft, the answer I thought was evasive, and although assured they would be comfortable, they seemed from photographs to be slightly more padded ironing boards. We will see.
156 & 158 are to get these new seats.
150s are to get seats refurbished to the new style. Some seats ex 156s are to be refurbished in that style and put into 150s.
150142 is to go to Crewe next week and will be the first to receive the new style refurbished seats. The next 155 will also get these.
Luggage space on 156/158 to be increased.
150s ex LM & GW will arrive Dec 17 to Feb 18. Earlier work should mean they do not have corrosion issues.
12 150/1s are to be converted to 3 car by the addition of a coach ex 150/2.
8 158s ex Scotrail to begin to arrive Jan 18
16 170s ex Scotrail to arrive from Feb 18, the first ones to Leeds. Later will work Leeds - Southport/Chester.
11 769s on order instead of 8. First to be tested on the GCR in Feb 18, then to Allerton. Expected use on Stalybridge-Southport, Barrow and Windermere services.
156s to transfer from Allerton to Newton Heath.
158s with Perkins engines to go to Heaton for the Carlisle service.
The first of the 98 new trains will be factory tested in Nov/Dec 17, track tested at Velim Jan-Mar 18, UK testing Jun-Oct 18, into service from Dec 18. All have 2+2 seating and A/C. The diesels will have 750hp MTU engines.
Any of this could of course change and it was made clear to us that route allocation of types of stock is far from decided.
The impression given is that these events are now being managed by very keen and experienced staff.

Most interesting thank you. Shame it seems to have taken so long for them to get there act together. You sure about the 750HP MTU diesels?
K

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Some of this is news to me and I work for Northern! I mean I guessed the cascade was coming soon but we hadn't been given dates

That said, I was aware of the corrosion - the 155 issues are relatively common knowledge internally. This is why the first stage of the refurbishments has taken so long - the trains were all in much worse condition than expected. The reason the work has come back looking "cheap" is because most of the work done so far has been in overhauling the trains internally. They're due for further work to upgrade them further - there was word a few weeks back that the first "fully refurbished" all mod cons unit was due to return soon but it doesn't seem to have appeared so far. The top brass have been quite open that the first 158 to come back last year was not up to expectations so this is something they're aware of. Even so, the refurbs have been popular with customers

And yes, for whoever asked previously, the 333s are being repainted in the same livery as all the other units, as are the 170s. Everything is eventually going to be the same style, with the "by Arriva" strapline and the same colour roundels. I think the only noticeable difference will be train names, which have started to be made again due to pressure from the regions

 

[northwichcat]

If seats from 156s are being used in 150s, does that mean that the 150s will be 2+2?

Don't forget the ex-FNW 150 seats are the same size as the ex-FNW 156 seats. The difference being the 150 carriages are wider plus the 150s have seats right up to the wall and no armrests.

 

[northwichcat]

I would take the 170s to Chester as just being the current proposal. The will be maintained at Neville Hill, so it adds up. I think 769s to Windermere will be for the long term, unless Network Rail reinstate electrification.

769s to Windermere has been confirmed as an interim measure from May 2018 to December 2019 when 195s will take over.
Electrification isn't happening - Grayling has given the option of Northern trialling alternative trains from 2021 (IPEMU or even hydrogen) instead.

With it previously being announced the Harrogate line would get 170s I thought 170s to Chester may be similar. After all Northern will be competing with a service operated by 175s so putting 170s on the Harrogate line prior to 195s arriving and putting Sprinters on the new Chester service doesn't make a lot of sense. While if they've decided Chester to Leeds needs 3 car sets then there won't be many options until the 3 car 195s arrive, given Northern only have 8 x 3 car 158s.

 

[1179_Clee2]

I went to a Northern event today for invited stakeholders concerning new and refurbished trains. It was presented by the Head of New Build and the Head of Train Refurbishment.
Some of this is not strictly relevant to this forum, but is included for interest.
Concerning corrosion, class 150 and 155 are the worst, with 155s more a problem because the Leyland drawings no longer exist. 158/319 are generally OK. I don't remember 156s being mentioned, but I think they are also OK.
Corrosion is the responsibility of the ROSCOs, and most of the delay has been caused by the need to determine extent, negotiate contracts for rectification with a view to a further 10 year life, and to do the work.
150276 has got an entirely new roof.
The seats for the new trains have been decided. On being asked if they would be thick and soft, the answer I thought was evasive, and although assured they would be comfortable, they seemed from photographs to be slightly more padded ironing boards. We will see.
156 & 158 are to get these new seats.
150s are to get seats refurbished to the new style. Some seats ex 156s are to be refurbished in that style and put into 150s.
150142 is to go to Crewe next week and will be the first to receive the new style refurbished seats. The next 155 will also get these.
Luggage space on 156/158 to be increased.
150s ex LM & GW will arrive Dec 17 to Feb 18. Earlier work should mean they do not have corrosion issues.
12 150/1s are to be converted to 3 car by the addition of a coach ex 150/2.
8 158s ex Scotrail to begin to arrive Jan 18
16 170s ex Scotrail to arrive from Feb 18, the first ones to Leeds. Later will work Leeds - Southport/Chester.
11 769s on order instead of 8. First to be tested on the GCR in Feb 18, then to Allerton. Expected use on Stalybridge-Southport, Barrow and Windermere services.
156s to transfer from Allerton to Newton Heath.
158s with Perkins engines to go to Heaton for the Carlisle service.
The first of the 98 new trains will be factory tested in Nov/Dec 17, track tested at Velim Jan-Mar 18, UK testing Jun-Oct 18, into service from Dec 18. All have 2+2 seating and A/C. The diesels will have 750hp MTU engines.
Any of this could of course change and it was made clear to us that route allocation of types of stock is far from decided.
The impression given is that these events are now being managed by very keen and experienced staff.

It is looking like the "Angel 12" (Class 150's) are not coming to Northern and Northern are having 12 coaches of 769 (3*4 car trains) instead.
A recent post on the GWR livery thread said the 2 toiletless 150/2 cars have gone by road to Doncaster to be converted into a 2 car train for GWR.

 

[jonesy3001]

What are the angel 150s?

 

[1179_Clee2]

What are the angel 150s?

150 001
150 002
150 202
150 216
2 toiletless 150/2 cars 57209 and 57212
12 coaches that DfT had in both the Northern AND the GWR franchise agreements.
Only 1 of the franchises can operate the trains and it looks like GWR are keeping them ???

 

[jonesy3001]

150 001
150 002
150 202
150 216
2 toiletless 150/2 cars 57209 and 57212
12 coaches that DfT had in both the Northern AND the GWR franchise agreements.
Only 1 of the franchises can operate the trains and it looks like GWR are keeping them ???

Nice, so northern will be getting all the 150/1s apart from these then?

 

[darloscott]

I thought that they'd be cascading the seats down across the fleet so that makes sense as to why the first refurbishments haven't done anything with the seating.
It sounds like it is all in hand and I guess the "new" units arriving this winter will allow them to speed up the refurbishment process as they'll have a surplus until the majority of the new services start in May.

 

[jonesy3001]

What happened to the list of whats what and whats not in refurbs and repaints?

 

[northwichcat]

150 001
150 002
150 202
150 216
2 toiletless 150/2 cars 57209 and 57212
12 coaches that DfT had in both the Northern AND the GWR franchise agreements.
Only 1 of the franchises can operate the trains and it looks like GWR are keeping them ???

To add a bit more detail, the Northern franchise agreement indicates the lease will start on the date the GWR franchise agreement indicates the existing lease ends on. However, there is a clause for a short term extension in the GWR agreement and if DfT activate that clause all GWR's leases in place on the franchise end date have to be extended to the new franchise end date.

There's also a rumour that Porterbrook would like their small fleet of 150s with Northern to go to GWR to create consistent fleets and if that happens Northern will get the 'Angel 12.'

 

[northwichcat]

I thought that they'd be cascading the seats down across the fleet so that makes sense as to why the first refurbishments haven't done anything with the seating.
It sounds like it is all in hand and I guess the "new" units arriving this winter will allow them to speed up the refurbishment process as they'll have a surplus until the majority of the new services start in May.

A few of the Sprinters did get seats repainted, repadded and recovered but it's rumoured Northern management were unhappy with the end product and wanted something better.

 

[lejog]

So is 170s to Chester instead of 195s or is it an interim measure like 769s to Windermere?

What I heard is that Northern hope to have 4 or 5 the 170s available by the May 2018 timetable change and use them initially to provide the extra stock needed for the extension of Calder Valley services to Chester and Manchester Airport. But yes as an interim measure until the 195s arrive. This would mean a mixture of 170s and the current Calder Valley Sprinters (mostly 158s) on these services for a spell.

Edit: but that was a rumour.

 

[jonesy3001]

So after the fleet movements have happened what depot is having what fleet,
eg;
allerton - 319s
newton heath - 156s,150s
blackburn - 142s,144s

 

[mikemcniven]

150142 now in based livery, not seen that mentioned yet on here, sorry if it has been. Seen today working the Manchester to Buxton service with 150271

Northern 150142 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

 

[Malay States]

Excellent post, thank you, any idea when the 158s will be transferred over to Heaton?

No, he didn't say.

 

[Malay States]

The ex North Western Trains 156s have chapmans which I believe are fitted in a 3+2 configuration in the ex North Western 150s so perhaps these ones will replace ashbournes in the 3+2 150s

I think you are right. He said the ashbournes were being disposed of, so that implies it's the others that are transferring to 150s.

 

[Malay States]

Most interesting thank you. Shame it seems to have taken so long for them to get there act together. You sure about the 750HP MTU diesels?
K

He mentioned 750hp, and I asked is that per unit or per vehicle, as there will be both 2 and 3 car units, and I think he said per vehicle, but I could have it wrong, there was lots going on. It does seem possible, as that's what 185s have.

 

[507021]

What happened to the list of whats what and whats not in refurbs and repaints?

I last posted an update here, I'll update it again soon.

 

[superkev]

He mentioned 750hp, and I asked is that per unit or per vehicle, as there will be both 2 and 3 car units, and I think he said per vehicle, but I could have it wrong, there was lots going on. It does seem possible, as that's what 185s have.

Wikipedia quotes 523hp
K