Mordac
Established Member
Clearly they're interpreting 'as new' as meaning 'as when they got off the BREL production line,', rather than 'as a new present day train.'
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Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.
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RailUK Forums
Well, I think the poles were pink/magenta before so they're probably less high-vis now than they were before!
railfan100
On Moderation
I can only come to the conclusion that the senior management team at Northern have their bonus payments linked in a major way to minimal expenditure. Some of the Class 150\2 units have the original seat frames from 1987 that simply has had new material and cushions added, this really gives a good example of the refurb dedication. The North has been plunged into very negative times with some rolling stock that is running around today on some routes. Some of the Northern Rail stock especially the 14x and 15x fleet would be more at home on a preserved railway.
Halish Railway
Established Member
Just asking, but are the 170's that will be taken from Scotrail in the refurbished Saltire state? If so would Northern just fit a new moquette and repaint the train?
222001
Member
170461/472 were when I went on them on Sunday. They're mentioned as going to Northern earlier in here. I didn't see any that were not refurbished actually.
theblackwatch
Established Member
- Joined
- 15 Feb 2006
- Messages
- 10,889
I was certainly disappointed with the 150/2 'refurbishments', which seem to be more of a facelift - I described it as 'underwhelming'. The biggest change seemed to be the reversal of some airline style seats (so they faced opposite ways either side of the gangway), but even this doesn't appear to have been done on all the units!
Halish Railway
Established Member
Yesterday I was at Edinburgh and I saw a few 170's in with National Express Scotrail interiors, however they had First Class seating and won't go to Northern.
Halish Railway
Established Member
Does anyone know what will happen to the 3-coach Class 158's post Northern Connect? Also how many of the 3-coach sets are there?
I don't know what route(s) they will be used on in the future, but Northern have eight three car Class 158 units.
Well there are some current 158 plus dogbox diagrams they may replace them particularly on the S&C. But potentially anywhere where a 3 car Non Connect service is required with the significant Timetable recasts and arrival of Northern Connect, unless they decide to use them on Connect services in the North East instead of 2 Car,
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Since Manchester to Clitheroe is due to see train lengthening to 5*23m, it has been suggested that they may run on these services (strengthed by a 2 coach 15x in peak hours) as they will be only 3car 23m 15xs that Northern have. Southport also sees lengthening to 5*23m, although the service from Leeds will be a 3 coach 170, the other service will be a 15x.
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superkev
Established Member
Wasn't it in the franchise proposal to use refurbished 158's Newcastle Carlisle.
K
K
northwichcat
Veteran Member
All 158s are to be refurbished to the same standard, so it's unclear which of them will be used on the Newcastle-Carlisle service.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I used to think that but it's been reported some 195s will be kept at the new Blackburn depot overnight, so it's not impossible that a 5 car 195 might be used on an early or late service to Clitheroe, even if it won't be a route which gets 195s all day.
Also, while all the 170s will be 3 car it's possible some services could have a 2 car 158 tagged on them to create a 5 x 23 car formation, or that a 5 car 158 formation may be used at peak times, alongside 170s. I think the Southport-Leeds service is to call at fewer stations than the other Southport service so a 5 car set on Southport-Leeds would likely require less platform lengthening.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the initial suggestions get changed including where the 170's get used. It would seem to me that the 170's are newer and closer to the spec of 195's for Northern Connect than 158's but I guess it depends on the number 3 car and number of 2 car required, then of course there are the other changes, reduced electrification, 769's possibly less cascaded 150's etc in the mix. The only things you can be reasonably certain about are the EMU's and the 195's the rest of it is anybody's guess.
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railfan100
On Moderation
Northern should refurb the Class 158 to the standards of EMT with an trolley service etc. With a quality refurb there is no reason to think they cannot provide as good an experience as a Class 170 or even 195. Yes they are getting long in the tooth now and have covered millions of miles but a detailed programme of enhancements is the way to go.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
There could also be more 170s joining post-2020 - the franchise spec mentions more 170s or equivalents, while reportedly LM are releasing 170s, as well as Anglia. When it was originally expected Scotrail would release around 50 x 170s I thought they would end up doing the longer Northern services.
lejog - I think you forgot to add a post!
lejog - I think you forgot to add a post!
Yes it is possible, but IMO highly unlikely. The Franchise Agreement explicitly states that the train lengthening programme is required to satisfy Northern's capacity obligations, which are specified as the total number of seats into/out of Manchester, Leeds etc. in the morning (7-10am)/evening (4-7pm) peaks, but are at their highest for 8am-9am arrivals. I don't see there being any spare 195s for services from Clitheroe/Blackburn to Manchester arriving at 8am to 9am. Also as the services run from Clitheroe/Blackburn to Rochdale, this would allow easy swapping onto Calder Valley or York-Blackpool Northern Connect services if there is a shortage of 195s.
I agree the Southport services are less likely, especially now as one of the morning peak services is going to Piccadilly and is possibly a 769.
Dinner was served.
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mikemcniven
Member
I had a ride on 319370 which is in Northern livery (1st style with the other coloured 'n') and it still retains it's FCC seat covers, the poles ect. have all been redone, but not the seating, also the internal PIS was stuck showing the final stop and not doing the usual announcements for each stops that the other 319's do.
Northern 319370 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Northern 319370 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Loop & Link
Member
- Joined
- 22 Feb 2015
- Messages
- 515
381 the same too.
378 completed and now out and about.
378 completed and now out and about.
A unit is on its way back from Kilmarnock to Neville hill now:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K79617/2017/10/28/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K79617/2017/10/28/advanced
That will probably be 158755, there is another one going up tomorrow.- http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K79619/2017/10/29/advanced
Defiance149
Member
- Joined
- 30 Dec 2013
- Messages
- 497
156438 has been released from Springburn today back to Heaton, so presumably that has been repainted as part of its PRM mods. 156472 and 156490 headed north to replace it.
childwallblues
Established Member
319370 PIS was working fine on Tuesday when operating LIV-MIA services.
175001
On Moderation
Probably the PIS was set by the standard code and not the 319 specific code
mikemcniven
Member
Maybe as it was just scrolling "Manchester Air" on a loop with no automated announcements either
childwallblues
Established Member
I noted 319381 in service on LIV-WGN on Friday.
158757 was on the Neville Hill to Kilmarnock- http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K79619/2017/10/29/advanced.
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,560
150206 has had a repaint, can't remember if it had already had PRM work done but it's to the same standard as 150220
Malay States
Member
- Joined
- 24 Jan 2017
- Messages
- 56
I went to a Northern event today for invited stakeholders concerning new and refurbished trains. It was presented by the Head of New Build and the Head of Train Refurbishment.
Some of this is not strictly relevant to this forum, but is included for interest.
Concerning corrosion, class 150 and 155 are the worst, with 155s more a problem because the Leyland drawings no longer exist. 158/319 are generally OK. I don't remember 156s being mentioned, but I think they are also OK.
Corrosion is the responsibility of the ROSCOs, and most of the delay has been caused by the need to determine extent, negotiate contracts for rectification with a view to a further 10 year life, and to do the work.
150276 has got an entirely new roof.
The seats for the new trains have been decided. On being asked if they would be thick and soft, the answer I thought was evasive, and although assured they would be comfortable, they seemed from photographs to be slightly more padded ironing boards. We will see.
156 & 158 are to get these new seats.
150s are to get seats refurbished to the new style. Some seats ex 156s are to be refurbished in that style and put into 150s.
150142 is to go to Crewe next week and will be the first to receive the new style refurbished seats. The next 155 will also get these.
Luggage space on 156/158 to be increased.
150s ex LM & GW will arrive Dec 17 to Feb 18. Earlier work should mean they do not have corrosion issues.
12 150/1s are to be converted to 3 car by the addition of a coach ex 150/2.
8 158s ex Scotrail to begin to arrive Jan 18
16 170s ex Scotrail to arrive from Feb 18, the first ones to Leeds. Later will work Leeds - Southport/Chester.
11 769s on order instead of 8. First to be tested on the GCR in Feb 18, then to Allerton. Expected use on Stalybridge-Southport, Barrow and Windermere services.
156s to transfer from Allerton to Newton Heath.
158s with Perkins engines to go to Heaton for the Carlisle service.
The first of the 98 new trains will be factory tested in Nov/Dec 17, track tested at Velim Jan-Mar 18, UK testing Jun-Oct 18, into service from Dec 18. All have 2+2 seating and A/C. The diesels will have 750hp MTU engines.
Any of this could of course change and it was made clear to us that route allocation of types of stock is far from decided.
The impression given is that these events are now being managed by very keen and experienced staff.
Some of this is not strictly relevant to this forum, but is included for interest.
Concerning corrosion, class 150 and 155 are the worst, with 155s more a problem because the Leyland drawings no longer exist. 158/319 are generally OK. I don't remember 156s being mentioned, but I think they are also OK.
Corrosion is the responsibility of the ROSCOs, and most of the delay has been caused by the need to determine extent, negotiate contracts for rectification with a view to a further 10 year life, and to do the work.
150276 has got an entirely new roof.
The seats for the new trains have been decided. On being asked if they would be thick and soft, the answer I thought was evasive, and although assured they would be comfortable, they seemed from photographs to be slightly more padded ironing boards. We will see.
156 & 158 are to get these new seats.
150s are to get seats refurbished to the new style. Some seats ex 156s are to be refurbished in that style and put into 150s.
150142 is to go to Crewe next week and will be the first to receive the new style refurbished seats. The next 155 will also get these.
Luggage space on 156/158 to be increased.
150s ex LM & GW will arrive Dec 17 to Feb 18. Earlier work should mean they do not have corrosion issues.
12 150/1s are to be converted to 3 car by the addition of a coach ex 150/2.
8 158s ex Scotrail to begin to arrive Jan 18
16 170s ex Scotrail to arrive from Feb 18, the first ones to Leeds. Later will work Leeds - Southport/Chester.
11 769s on order instead of 8. First to be tested on the GCR in Feb 18, then to Allerton. Expected use on Stalybridge-Southport, Barrow and Windermere services.
156s to transfer from Allerton to Newton Heath.
158s with Perkins engines to go to Heaton for the Carlisle service.
The first of the 98 new trains will be factory tested in Nov/Dec 17, track tested at Velim Jan-Mar 18, UK testing Jun-Oct 18, into service from Dec 18. All have 2+2 seating and A/C. The diesels will have 750hp MTU engines.
Any of this could of course change and it was made clear to us that route allocation of types of stock is far from decided.
The impression given is that these events are now being managed by very keen and experienced staff.