Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[507021]

Not the thinly padded ironing board one?

Unfortunately so, going off the comments I heard about it when I sampled them at the roadshow at Lime Street last year.

Really, really poor if this turns out to be true.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately so, going off the comments I heard about it when I sampled them at the roadshow at Lime Street last year.

Really, really poor if this turns out to be true.

Wasn't it the case that they had had positive comments about both the heavily padded one and the extra legroom from the ironing board, thus perhaps going for a hybrid of the ironing board back plus a contoured base like ScotRail have gone for for the Hitachi EMUs? Said base makes them vastly more comfortable than the flat base used by Southern (I tried both at the roadshow in Edinburgh some time ago).

I'm still disappointed by the absence of the Grammer high-back winged seat.

 

[507021]

Wasn't it the case that they had had positive comments about both the heavily padded one and the extra legroom from the ironing board, thus perhaps going for a hybrid of the ironing board back plus a contoured base like ScotRail have gone for for the Hitachi EMUs? Said base makes them vastly more comfortable than the flat base used by Southern (I tried both at the roadshow in Edinburgh some time ago).

I guess that would be alright, because the one thing I will give the ironing board seats credit for is the legroom, but that's where it stops for me. If that style seat with more padding and better back support was chosen, then it wouldn't be the end of the world I guess. However above all that, at least there's actually brand new trains on the way for the North, and way more than the 120 powered carriages the ITT specified was the minimum amount required.

 

[yorksrob]

I guess that would be alright, because the one thing I will give the ironing board seats credit for is the legroom, but that's where it stops for me. If that style seat with more padding and better back support was chosen, then it wouldn't be the end of the world I guess. However above all that, at least there's actually brand new trains on the way for the North, and way more than the 120 powered carriages the ITT specified was the minimum amount required.

Well this is true. Although it has to be said that some will be replacing 144's which actually have quite pleasent seats IMO (albeit too close together).

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair the legroom on the Southern ones with ironing boards is also because the layout is a very low density one - rather than cramming in an extra row per 350/1 they just crammed in a side-facing seat instead.

 

[superkev]

Wasn't it the case that they had had positive comments about both the heavily padded one and the extra legroom from the ironing board, thus perhaps going for a hybrid of the ironing board back plus a contoured base like ScotRail have gone for for the Hitachi EMUs? Said base makes them vastly more comfortable than the flat base used by Southern (I tried both at the roadshow in Edinburgh some time ago).

I'm still disappointed by the absence of the Grammer high-back winged seat.

I wonder if Northern senior management read this forum.
D

 

[TEW]

To be fair the legroom on the Southern ones with ironing boards is also because the layout is a very low density one - rather than cramming in an extra row per 350/1 they just crammed in a side-facing seat instead.

Whereas the ironing boards on the 700s have pretty poor legroom as the seats have been crammed in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whereas the ironing boards on the 700s have pretty poor legroom as the seats have been crammed in.

Indeed, but would be much worse if a different, thicker type of seat had been used. (FWIW they seem about the same as the middle section on a 350/1 to me, albeit narrower).

 

[northwichcat]

Just received my modern railways mag and IW reports that northern have picked the seat least liked by passengers in the recent trial. Presumably the cheapest.
K

Other reports have suggested the seat with the most padding won the public vote and the ironing board lost but they are going for the other option with a little bit of extra padding so there's more leg room than if they had gone for the most popular option.

 

[northwichcat]

Whereas the ironing boards on the 700s have pretty poor legroom as the seats have been crammed in.

The seating capacities of the new trains were agreed before the type of seating was chosen so they'll have pretty much the same number of seats as the standard class only 170s have.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, but would be much worse if a different, thicker type of seat had been used. (FWIW they seem about the same as the middle section on a 350/1 to me, albeit narrower).

Or perhaps the ironing board style seats made them feel that they could cram more in than would otherwise have been the case.

 

[Andyh82]

The new trains will be running the Northern Connect routes so hopefully they will be suitable for fairly long distance journeys like Manchester Airport to Bradford.

I wish they'd spend money now instead of having to spend twice, just look at First Transpennine Express, if they'd spent more on more carriages then they wouldn't have to replace the fleet again now.

 

[Mordac]

The new trains will be running the Northern Connect routes so hopefully they will be suitable for fairly long distance journeys like Manchester Airport to Bradford.

I wish they'd spend money now instead of having to spend twice, just look at First Transpennine Express, if they'd spent more on more carriages then they wouldn't have to replace the fleet again now.

To be fair, TPE was stopped from doing so by the SRA, they actually wanted to buy more trains.

 

[TC60054]

I believe the original TPE order was almost halved from 300 carriages to the 153 that they actually recieved.

 

[childwallblues]

I believe the original TPE order was almost halved from 300 carriages to the 153 that they actually recieved.

I believe the number was actually 174 (58 units) plus 18 x 170 (9 units).

 

[northwichcat]

I believe the original TPE order was almost halved from 300 carriages to the 153 that they actually recieved.

I believe the number was actually 174 (58 units) plus 18 x 170 (9 units).

I thought it was 56 x 3 car with the option for more centre cars. It was also claimed SRA wanted to cutback to 45 x 3 car but when Siemens told them an order of <150 carriages would incur a higher price per carriage, they went with 153 and decided to transfer Manchester Airport to Blackpool to TPE - which was supposed to be staying with Northern and getting 158s once the 175s properly transferred to W&B.

Arriva's bid had proposed something similar to the 222s in 4 car formations and had included a proposal for them to run Blackpool to Manchester to Cleethorpes services, so would have required a lot more carriages in total. We never heard what Connex proposed but reportedly they would have won had First/Kelios not revised their original, so possibly Connex had what would have been the least attractive bid for passengers.

 

[ben2012]

I thought it was 56 x 3 car with the option for more centre cars. It was also claimed SRA wanted to cutback to 45 x 3 car but when Siemens told them an order of <150 carriages would incur a higher price per carriage, they went with 153 and decided to transfer Manchester Airport to Blackpool to TPE - which was supposed to be staying with Northern and getting 158s once the 175s properly transferred to W&B.

Arriva's bid had proposed something similar to the 222s in 4 car formations and had included a proposal for them to run Blackpool to Manchester to Cleethorpes services, so would have required a lot more carriages in total. We never heard what Connex proposed but reportedly they would have won had First/Kelios not revised their original, so possibly Connex had what would have been the least attractive bid for passengers.

As any one for a pic of arrivas proposal

 

[TC60054]

I thought it was 56 x 3 car with the option for more centre cars. It was also claimed SRA wanted to cutback to 45 x 3 car but when Siemens told them an order of <150 carriages would incur a higher price per carriage, they went with 153 and decided to transfer Manchester Airport to Blackpool to TPE - which was supposed to be staying with Northern and getting 158s once the 175s properly transferred to W&B.

Arriva's bid had proposed something similar to the 222s in 4 car formations and had included a proposal for them to run Blackpool to Manchester to Cleethorpes services, so would have required a lot more carriages in total. We never heard what Connex proposed but reportedly they would have won had First/Kelios not revised their original, so possibly Connex had what would have been the least attractive bid for passengers.

I heard first 60x5 car, reduced to 60x3 car, then to 56x3 car with the option for centre carriages, then further reduced to 51x3 car, all this done by the DafT, but I could be wrong.

 

[northwichcat]

I heard first 60x5 car, reduced to 60x3 car, then to 56x3 car with the option for centre carriages, then further reduced to 51x3 car, all this done by the DafT, but I could be wrong.

Technically it was by the SRA before they were abolished.

 

[Andyh82]

Give it a few years I can see a similar situation on Northern, as the new 2 car trains fill up. No extra carriages are authorised and then the model is discontinued meaning they are forever 2 cars.

Regarding the seats, as the new trains will be directly replacing 158s, you would hope they have a similar level of comfort to those or else it could all end up in disappointment and bad press. At the other end of the fleet, the pacers will be replaced by 150s which will probably also lead to disappointment!

 

[northwichcat]

Give it a few years I can see a similar situation on Northern, as the new 2 car trains fill up. No extra carriages are authorised and then the model is discontinued meaning they are forever 2 cars.

Northern have written in to the franchise agreement that they have to acquire an additional 36 x 100mph capable diesel powered carriages with air conditioning post-2019 but the way it's worded suggests if cascaded stock is available which fits that description e.g. Anglia 170s then those should be acquired opposed to more 195s. It also is based on predicted growth and doesn't seem to include the possibly for say 60 carriages if growth is higher than predicted.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its emerging that Transport for The North do have a little leeway to make adjustments to the subsidy profile to make alterations to services/increase capacity.

 

[xotGD]

Give it a few years I can see a similar situation on Northern, as the new 2 car trains fill up. No extra carriages are authorised and then the model is discontinued meaning they are forever 2 cars.

Regarding the seats, as the new trains will be directly replacing 158s, you would hope they have a similar level of comfort to those or else it could all end up in disappointment and bad press. At the other end of the fleet, the pacers will be replaced by 150s which will probably also lead to disappointment!

Reform the 150s into 3-car sets with 2+2 seating with fewer airline seats and people will be happy. (Could you use a 153 as a centre car in a 150???)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Reform the 150s into 3-car sets with 2+2 seating with fewer airline seats and people will be happy. (Could you use a 153 as a centre car in a 150???)

One of the big lessons about 3+2 seating is the approach used on the 333s. All seats on the 3 side are in bays, with airline seats only on the 2 side. If this approach is taken with the 150s I'd have no issue with 3+2 seating being used- after all we need all the capacity we can get...

You could use a 153 as a centre car in a 150, but as the vehicles are different lengths it would make life awkward for stopping positions on platforms, and it would look ridiculous. The only future I can see for 153s is as 2 or 3-car 155s. Hybrid sets also create issues with route availability: there are places where 153/5s are passed but 150s aren't, and vice-versa.

 

[northwichcat]

Reform the 150s into 3-car sets with 2+2 seating with fewer airline seats and people will be happy. (Could you use a 153 as a centre car in a 150???)

The Northern franchise agreement indicates some 3 car sets are coming from GWR and they will reform some 2 car sets in to 3 car ones. However, the seating capacity figures indicate the 150s will all retain 3+2 seating.

There won't be enough carriages to reform all the 150s in to 3 car and if they were all reformed it would cause issues on some lines e.g. Oxford Rd to Lime Street stoppers will need to be 4 car 150s at peak times - 6 cars would be too long for many platforms and 3 cars with 2+2 seating would be a significant reduction in the number of seats on peak time services.

 

[yorksrob]

One of the big lessons about 3+2 seating is the approach used on the 333s. All seats on the 3 side are in bays, with airline seats only on the 2 side. If this approach is taken with the 150s I'd have no issue with 3+2 seating being used- after all we need all the capacity we can get...

You could use a 153 as a centre car in a 150, but as the vehicles are different lengths it would make life awkward for stopping positions on platforms, and it would look ridiculous. The only future I can see for 153s is as 2 or 3-car 155s. Hybrid sets also create issues with route availability: there are places where 153/5s are passed but 150s aren't, and vice-versa.

I'd rather have a seat in a ridiculous looking train than have to stand in an immaculately styled one.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd rather have a seat in a ridiculous looking train than have to stand in an immaculately styled one.

Indeed. 142+156 formations look a bit stupid but a 142+156 formation is certainly better than a 142 on it's own.

 

[ben2012]

I know this is off topic but what's happening with he set 158/159 fleets arriva said they needed more

 

[northwichcat]

I know this is off topic but what's happening with he set 158/159 fleets arriva said they needed more

More trains or more work?

There's 8 more arriving from Scotrail next year.

There's also been talk of the 158s getting new seats. The 'refurbished' ones also haven't had their lighting changed to LED lighting and I think there's a couple of other modifications still to do.

 

[superkev]

Almost a year into the franchise and I can't see much change with just 3 dmu units partially done. Not sure about emu's.
K