Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[superkev]

For the ROSCO to invest in a retrofit, it needs to agree lease terms with the TOC that will guarantee an adequate return on the investment over the remaining term of the lease. The TOC may well not consider a potential improvement in aircon reliability worth the hike in the lease rate.

Yes forget the passengers being boiled alive on a hot day. Only today I saw one of Northerns recently redecorated 3 car 158's with the emergency hoppers open. Money is king.
K

 

[47802]

You should read Modern Railways (Issue 806 - November 2015) where Ian Walmsley asserts that the 158s are potentially Britain's best-ever DMUs. I couldn't agree more, they're terrific trains.

Really which planet is he on and how often does he actually travel on them, and is he looking at them from a TOC perspective or a punter who travels on them?

Yes they are ok when the Aircon is working and relatively speaking are a lot better than much of Northern's other stock which of course isn't difficult but I don't think are that great engine noise is quite high still, and generally I prefer a 170 or a 175 over a 158.

 

[northwichcat]

Really which planet is he on and how often does he actually travel on them, and is he looking at them from a TOC perspective or a punter who travels on them?

I'd question whether someone who worked for Porterbrook before he 'retired' is impartial.

 

[superkev]

Really which planet is he on and how often does he actually travel on them, and is he looking at them from a TOC perspective or a punter who travels on them?

Yes they are ok when the Aircon is working and relatively speaking are a lot better than much of Northern's other stock which of course isn't difficult but I don't think are that great engine noise is quite high still, and generally I prefer a 170 or a 175 over a 158.

I'm with Ian W apart from the a/c. The 158's are in terms of seats per ton the lightest and according to the performance table in rail express mag have the best 0 to 60 time of all dmmus apart from the lard butt 185's.
It would be interesting to see how much quicker the 400hp ones are.
K

 

[yorksrob]

Its extremely disappointing that the 156's and 150's don't even have USB chargers. I think calling this a "refurb" is stretching the definition somewhat.

 

[mikemcniven]

Small question everyone, do we know what will be happening with 319450 as it's still got it's old FCC interior, I rode on it today on the Liverpool to Mcr Airport service


inside Northern 319450 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

 

[Greybeard33]

What? We have ROSCOs literally turning EMUs into DMUs because were that short yet you're saying 158s may only possibly make another 10 years?

A lot of new trains can be built in 10 years. Even 2 years ago, how many people expected that the new Northern, Transpennine, East Anglia and West Midlands franchisees would order the number of new trains that they have? And even with recent postponements, a lot more miles of railway could be electrified in 10 years time.

The increasing concern about diesel pollution and air quality could hasten the retirement of DMUs like the 158, which pre-date the exhaust emissions regulations and so are the worst polluters. The Stage IIIB compliant engines on a 195 or a 769 will only emit a tiny fraction of the pollutants in comparison.

And which franchise is today in a position to sign a 10 year lease contract for 158s?

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes forget the passengers being boiled alive on a hot day. Only today I saw one of Northerns recently redecorated 3 car 158's with the emergency hoppers open. Money is king.
K

What about the passengers on Northern's 150s, 155s, 156s and 319s, who have to put up with no aircon every day? Why should a minor improvement in the availability of the 158 system be a priority for investment, versus all the other possible improvements to the Northern fleet?

 

[47802]

A lot of new trains can be built in 10 years. Even 2 years ago, how many people expected that the new Northern, Transpennine, East Anglia and West Midlands franchisees would order the number of new trains that they have? And even with recent postponements, a lot more miles of railway could be electrified in 10 years time.

The increasing concern about diesel pollution and air quality could hasten the retirement of DMUs like the 158, which pre-date the exhaust emissions regulations and so are the worst polluters. The Stage IIIB compliant engines on a 195 or a 769 will only emit a tiny fraction of the pollutants in comparison.

And which franchise is today in a position to sign a 10 year lease contract for 158s?

I think its clear that 158's will be here for the duration of the Northern and Scotrail Franchises and any replacement will be the next franchises. I wouldn't put money on the next Welsh franchise looking at a 158 replacement considering a lot of the focus will be looking at a Pacer replacement and extra capacity similar to Northern. The next GWR and EMT franchises might consider a 158 replacement but I wouldn't put money on it.

 

[northwichcat]

What about the passengers on Northern's 150s, 155s, 156s and 319s, who have to put up with no aircon every day? Why should a minor improvement in the availability of the 158 system be a priority for investment, versus all the other possible improvements to the Northern fleet?

The trains you mention all have plenty of opening windows. 158s only have a limited number of windows which can be unlocked by a staff member, so if the 158 air conditioning fails in warm weather the unit is a lot hotter than the units you've mentioned.

I was unfortunate to be on a crowded 158 in a heatwave without working air conditioning. Fortunately the operator (TPE) decided all passengers should be offered a free bottle of water - presumably the cost of a couple hundred bottles of water is less than the penalties for delays if passengers take ill.

 

[northwichcat]

Its extremely disappointing that the 156's and 150's don't even have USB chargers. I think calling this a "refurb" is stretching the definition somewhat.

All the 158s, 195s and 331s will have charging points which means all Northern Connect services will have them. However, some of those units will be used on non-Connect services and likely used alongside trains which don't have charging points so on some routes it could be the 09:00 train will have charging points but the 10:00 won't.

 

[yorksrob]

All the 158s, 195s and 331s will have charging points which means all Northern Connect services will have them. However, some of those units will be used on non-Connect services and likely used alongside trains which don't have charging points so on some routes it could be the 09:00 train will have charging points but the 10:00 won't.

Considering Arriva have them on their urban buses, they should have taken the opportunity to install them on all their refurbished train fleet, along with seat back tables.

 

[DJH1971]

Small question everyone, do we know what will be happening with 319450 as it's still got it's old FCC interior, I rode on it today on the Liverpool to Mcr Airport service


inside Northern 319450 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

Same story with 319448 I think

 

[507021]

Small question everyone, do we know what will be happening with 319450 as it's still got it's old FCC interior, I rode on it today on the Liverpool to Mcr Airport service

I'd imagine it and 319448 will be refurbished when they go for conversion to Class 769.

 

[507 001]

As for the '158s are the best British DMU.
I heartily agree, especially in ATW or EMT spec. There are DMUs that are 10-15 years newer that have much worse refinement, I'm loooking at you, 220/221.....

 

[MCR247]

As for the '158s are the best British DMU.
I heartily agree, especially in ATW or EMT spec. There are DMUs that are 10-15 years newer that have much worse refinement, I'm loooking at you, 220/221.....

If they weren't so bloody loud I'd agree, an EMT 158 with plugs and a PIS is a great DMU though

 

[superkev]

As for the '158s are the best British DMU.
I heartily agree, especially in ATW or EMT spec. There are DMUs that are 10-15 years newer that have much worse refinement, I'm loooking at you, 220/221.....

Here here - but pity about the air con and particularly the northern examples with the designed for dwarf northern seat pitch are not the best examples.
K

 

[507021]

As for the '158s are the best British DMU.
I heartily agree, especially in ATW or EMT spec. There are DMUs that are 10-15 years newer that have much worse refinement, I'm loooking at you, 220/221.....

I completely agree with this, the ATW and EMT units are excellent trains.

 

[Kite159]

I completely agree with this, the ATW and EMT units are excellent trains.

Unless you are on a train with a lot of luggage, where the removal of the luggage racks on the EMT 158s comes clear when you get bags piling up in the bike spaces

 

[50032]

319381 arrived at Allerton tonight refurbished and in the new livery.

That's 381, 370 and 424 all at the depot now but yet to enter service with Northern.

 

[M1544]

158754 is now back in service. A change internally is that This unit has not had its seats reupholstered or painted except for the handles that are yellow as per the 150s. Consequently it looks different to the 3 other 158s and the 155 so far refurbished which did gain new seat moquette.

 

[175001]

That should indicate then that the new seats will be installed sooner rather than later

 

[boeing737229]

Wish they'd go back to doing the grab handles in Arriva Turquoise!

 

[Halish Railway]

That should indicate then that the new seats will be installed sooner rather than later

Let's hope they put new seats on the 333's because those current seats feel like they are made out of wood!

 

[Halish Railway]

Also does anyone know when they will actually finish the refurbishment?

 

[507021]

Also does anyone know when they will actually finish the refurbishment?

By 2020 according to this.

 

[superkev]

By 2020 according to this.

There going to have to speed up a bit then.
K

 

[M1544]

Schedule for a move (possibly 150276?) coming back from Kilmarnock to Newton Heath on Monday -

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13959/2017/09/11/advanced

 

[Bovverboy]

Schedule for a move (possibly 150276?) coming back from Kilmarnock to Newton Heath on Monday -

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13959/2017/09/11/advanced

It's disappeared off the tracking after Carlisle, so it may have gone via Newcastle.

 

[M1544]

Still at Carlisle I believe