Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[northwichcat]

I think some of the existing Liverpool - Scarborough services already run as 2x185

There used to be a Liverpool to Newcastle/Scarborough portion working in the morning peak prior to the Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria service started, that even called at Irlam. Passengers wanting to alight at certain stations were instructed to board the front train only.

 

[BurtonM]

I'm sure 2.5 carriages of replacement train for a 4 carriage 158 on the Norwich-Liverpool route would go down a storm ! A typhoon sized storm ! LOL

Ah, but the 158s don't have any First Class provision, and 185s do. If EMT were to get 185s there's nothing to say they wouldn't remove the First Class sections come internal refreshing.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think there's any suggestion that EMT or their successors would get 185s. As far as I can tell the splitting proposal was all about getting a single operator (successor TPE) on the Liverpool-Manchester and Manchester-Sheffield fasts which are key routes for the North, and perhaps also finding something for the 185s to do after the TP electrification. As the electrification has gone back there won't be any 185s available until the early 2020s so I think this proposal has gone away for the time being. It may reappear in the ITT for the longer-term EMT franchise but that is a year or two away.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think there's any suggestion that EMT or their successors would get 185s. As far as I can tell the splitting proposal was all about getting a single operator (successor TPE) on the Liverpool-Manchester and Manchester-Sheffield fasts which are key routes for the North, and perhaps also finding something for the 185s to do after the TP electrification. As the electrification has gone back there won't be any 185s available until the early 2020s so I think this proposal has gone away for the time being. It may reappear in the ITT for the longer-term EMT franchise but that is a year or two away.

TPE won't be running Liverpool-Manchester via Warrington services from December 2017 when they'll start running 2tph on the Chat Moss line.

The question posed earlier in the thread was if TPE get new trains pre-electrification (such as bi-modes) what would happen to the released 185s? Hull Trains will now be releasing their 180s ahead of electrification so it's a perfectly valid question.

I agree there were no plans to release 185s to EMT. DfT looked at moving to Liverpool to Nottingham to TPE which would have given TPE another diesel service to operate. They also looked at transferring Doncaster-Hull from Northern to TPE and Doncaster to Cleethorpes from TPE to EMT. However, as those route transfers now look unlikely to go ahead, maybe rolling stock may be transferred instead? One rumour circulating is Liverpool to Norwich will become Liverpool to Cambridge instead which would eliminate the issue of 185s/22xs being unable to operate the service to Sprinter timings between Peterborough and Norwich due to their weight.

 

[edwin_m]

TPE won't be running Liverpool-Manchester via Warrington services from December 2017 when they'll start running 2tph on the Chat Moss line.

The question posed earlier in the thread was if TPE get new trains pre-electrification (such as bi-modes) what would happen to the released 185s? Hull Trains will now be releasing their 180s ahead of electrification so it's a perfectly valid question.

I agree there were no plans to release 185s to EMT. DfT looked at moving to Liverpool to Nottingham to TPE which would have given TPE another diesel service to operate. They also looked at transferring Doncaster-Hull from Northern to TPE and Doncaster to Cleethorpes from TPE to EMT. However, as those route transfers now look unlikely to go ahead, maybe rolling stock may be transferred instead? One rumour circulating is Liverpool to Norwich will become Liverpool to Cambridge instead which would eliminate the issue of 185s/22xs being unable to operate the service to Sprinter timings between Peterborough and Norwich due to their weight.

Maybe if there are some 185s going off lease then the split idea will re-appear in the next EMT ITT as I suggested.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The most annoying thing is if the original next franchise start had occurred at the original date, all these rolling stock positions would have been far clearer.

 

[northwichcat]

The most annoying thing is if the original next franchise start had occurred at the original date, all these rolling stock positions would have been far clearer.

Things might have finished up different (for the worse) if the original next franchise date had been kept. When he was Rail Minister Stephen Hammond refused to accept an order of new trains for non-electrified routes was required. If a Northern franchise was let was he was in charge it might have been only cascaded 15xs and 17xs would have been allowed, then at a later date someone more competent might have allowed franchises like LM to order new trains and release existing trains to Northern to allow Pacer withdrawal.

 

[Class 170101]

One rumour circulating is Liverpool to Norwich will become Liverpool to Cambridge instead which would eliminate the issue of 185s/22xs being unable to operate the service to Sprinter timings between Peterborough and Norwich due to their weight.

Will still be an issue between Peterborough and Ely (which is en-route to Norwich) and additionally I believe there are some Multiple Unit Differentials between Ely and Cambridge.

The Peterborough to Norwich plan appears to be dead anyway. The Greater Anglia Stakeholder document made reference to it and the government in their response agreed not to pursue it.

 

[northwichcat]

Will still be an issue between Peterborough and Ely (which is en-route to Norwich) and additionally I believe there are some Multiple Unit Differentials between Ely and Cambridge.

Having differentials isn't necessarily an issue (differentials exist between Stockport and Sheffield and between Selby and Hull), it's when the differentials would cause a significant increase in journey time.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Splitting the service doesn't make economic sense, it's most efficiently run from Nottingham going both ways, hence Regional Railways set it up this way without crews from Liverpool, Manchester or Sheffield working them. The last time a Liverpool man made it this way was in the early 1990s and I'd be very surprised if they did again. Running an ECS costs far less than running a depot and hiring enough staff to cover the depots allocation of work.

 

[Class 170101]

Splitting the service doesn't make economic sense, it's most efficiently run from Nottingham going both ways, hence Regional Railways set it up this way without crews from Liverpool, Manchester or Sheffield working them. The last time a Liverpool man made it this way was in the early 1990s and I'd be very surprised if they did again. Running an ECS costs far less than running a depot and hiring enough staff to cover the depots allocation of work.

I would have thought under Regional Railwasy the depot would have been cheaper than ECS moves as surely it would have been using Liverpool Depot at which one presumably has always existed - Don't both Northern and Virgin have depots there now?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Yes but under the sectors within Regional Railways, it was operated by the Central division, so it was cheaper to operate it all from one depot, which supplied trains and Traincrew and led to an increase in reliability.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes but under the sectors within Regional Railways, it was operated by the Central division, so it was cheaper to operate it all from one depot, which supplied trains and Traincrew and led to an increase in reliability.

Regional Railways Central also ran other services into Liverpool (from Birmingham and beyond) and originally had all the Anglia rural routes radiating from Norwich too, so I guess there would have been enough work to make it worthwhile basing crews at both places.

 

[Starmill]

Splitting the service doesn't make economic sense, it's most efficiently run from Nottingham going both ways, hence Regional Railways set it up this way without crews from Liverpool, Manchester or Sheffield working them. The last time a Liverpool man made it this way was in the early 1990s and I'd be very surprised if they did again. Running an ECS costs far less than running a depot and hiring enough staff to cover the depots allocation of work.

Well you say it's more efficient, but that's kind of because it isn't as good! Why does the last through train to Liverpool leave Nottingham at 1847 - and the last one at 1941 only go as far as Manchester? Presumably because both train and crew have got to get back there again and it costs more the later this happens. Thus leaving important links like Sheffield to Manchester and Manchester to Liverpool at reduced frequency and with huge gaps in the evening. Similarly on a Sunday morning there not being a train in Liverpool to send to Nottingham until 1252 means there is a 2h 20m gap in Manchester to Sheffield! Why? Because it would cost a lot to run an empty train (which they must think it would be, passenger service or no) to Liverpool that arrives before midday... Even this requires the mystifyingly ECS 1000ish Nottingham to Manchester so it can have a train west before 2 o'clock!

 

[glbotu]

Having differentials isn't necessarily an issue (differentials exist between Stockport and Sheffield and between Selby and Hull), it's when the differentials would cause a significant increase in journey time.

So,

Ely - Waterbeach has 75/MU90
Ely - March has 60/SP75
March - Whittlsea has 60/SP75 (and some 70/SP75 and 40/SP55)

I'd suggest all these would affect journey times non-trivially, given Sprinter acceleration is pretty good compared with Inter-City MUs.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the service pattern along the Lancashire & Yorkshire route in an earlier post a few pages back, it seems that it is the intention to have a frequency of every 12 minutes between Manchester Victoria and Todmorden along that common section of route.

Of one of the 5 trains per hour that runs to Leeds via Brighouse, I would suggest that runs Southport - Leeds City calling at Meols Cop, Burscough Bridge, Apperley Bridge/Gathurst (alternating), Wigan Wallgate, Atherton, both Salford stations, Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Littleborough, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Sowerby Bridge, Brighouse, Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate, and Leeds City. This to run every 60 minutes, with a portion detaching/attaching at Wakefield Kirkgate every 2 hours as an experimental service continuing to York calling at Normanton, Castleford, Sherburn-in-Elmet, either Church Fenton or Ulleskelf, and York. This portion could interwork with a 2 hourly service as an experiment from York - Sheffield via Pontefract Baghill.

The suggestion above would connect Manchester with Wakefield, as Wakefield is the historic administrative centre of the West Riding of Yorkshire, and it would reinstate a direct service along the complete route of the Manchester & Leeds Railway section of the L&YR. Also, there would be improved local and regional connectivity between the southern and eastern part of the West Riding with destinations in the North Riding via Castleford and Pontefract Baghill too, which could be tried as an experiment.

 

[northwichcat]

Tony Miles has posted on wnxx that talks for TPE to loan 17xs from Southern to plug the void left by the departure of the remaining 4 x 170s to Chiltern have fallen through. He doesn't say what 'Plan C' is but does say it's DfT's idea and doesn't seem realistic due to crews having to learn new traction and time frames.