Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[northwichcat]

Would be surprised if they wernt at least convertible, ROSCO's would want certainty that they had a long term future.

Long Term Passenger Rolling Stock Strategy for the Rail Industry predicts 62% to 77% of the UK network will be electrified by 2034 (77% if growth continues to be high for the next 20 years.) By 2034 even the older 170s and 175s will be approaching retirement if they haven't already been retired. How far can you stretch the newer Turbostars and 185s?

I predict even if they are built to be convertible it won't be seriously looked at until the parts are obsolete.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Would be surprised if they wernt at least convertible, ROSCO's would want certainty that they had a long term future.

They are 4.0-4.2m tall 4.15m being a common height, the shorter 4m ones generally have 600mm wheel diameter and the taller 4.15/4.2m ones 720-860mm

The FLIRT, at heart, is an electric unit which can be converted to be be a diesel-electric unit with the insertion of the diesel engine module and the removal of the pantograph and transformer. The space will still exist for the pantograph and transformer to be fitted unless asked specifically otherwise to delete this option, something which could well cost more money as it means changes to body pressings, wiring looms and so forth.

The 'out of the box' default configuration is for the units to be convertible, and there's (hopefully) no way any ROSCO is going to sign an order for DEMUs and delete the option to turn them into bi-mode or pure electric units.

 

[Jonny]

The FLIRT you should be looking at is the bi-mode unit designed for Valle d’Aosta in Italy, as long as Network Rail can clear the articulated design for UK use.

It should not be a major problem; after all the Tyne and Wear Metro runs on Network Rail metals between Pelaw and South Hylton using articulated EMU stock. Also, the Eurostar has articulated bogies.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im not sure it can within our gauge though.

Standard electric

Diesel (note the extra height)

Bi-Mode, second image is what the Italians bought

So far the only non emu orders are the American EDMU already mentioned and the Italian bi-modes 170 seats inter-regional which is more suitable to UK than the partially low floor US design. Three carriages plus power module which can operate 3kv DC overhead and are priced at 3m Euros per carriage. They are 100mph electric or 87mph diesel, it has 2.6KW power under the wires or 700kw in diesel from two 8 cylinder engines.

 

[northwichcat]

So far the only non emu orders are the American EDMU already mentioned and the Italian bi-modes 170 seats inter-regional which is more suitable to UK than the partially low floor US design. Three carriages plus power module which can operate 3kv DC overhead and are priced at 3m Euros per carriage. They are 100mph electric or 87mph diesel, it has 2.6KW power under the wires or 700kw in diesel from two 8 cylinder engines.

With Northern Rail bidders they had a choice. They could have opted to take on the released Scotrail 170s for their Regional Express diesel services (and order new trains for other services) or they can order new trains for those RE services. Which option they decided to go for may affect the layout and formation of the new product they order.

3 car FLIRTs wouldn't exactly work on the Southport or Buxton lines at peak time - too small in single formation, or too long for numerous platforms in multiple formation. (The 170s can be reformed in to 2 and 4 car formations if that's what the winning bidder wants.)

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It should not be a major problem; after all the Tyne and Wear Metro runs on Network Rail metals between Pelaw and South Hylton using articulated EMU stock. Also, the Eurostar has articulated bogies.

It shouldn't be a major problem, but Network Rail hasn't cleared any route for articulated stock in 20 years. Treat it like Network Rail has been asked to put a man on the moon and work back from that point.

If I had a pound for everybody that said electrification shouldn't be a major problem, me and Richard Branson would be next door neighbours.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With Northern Rail bidders they had a choice. They could have opted to take on the released Scotrail 170s for their Regional Express diesel services (and order new trains for other services) or they can order new trains for those RE services. Which option they decided to go for may affect the layout and formation of the new product they order.

3 car FLIRTs wouldn't exactly work on the Southport or Buxton lines at peak time - too small in single formation, or too long for numerous platforms in multiple formation. (The 170s can be reformed in to 2 and 4 car formations if that's what the winning bidder wants.)

FLIRT lengths with articulated bogies could vary from the usual 23 metres of conventional diesel units in GB. Coach length, train length and platform lengths available could be catastrophically out of sync, or they could dovetail beautifully, depending on what NR and Stadler come back with for overall unit length, assuming agreement can be reached, Stadler then bid, and Stadler then win a contract for an articulated design.

I really wouldn't get hung up on 46 metres, 69 metres and 92 metres train lengths just yet.

 

[northwichcat]

I really wouldn't get hung up on 46 metres, 69 metres and 92 metres train lengths just yet.

Most recent build DMUs have had carriages 70-80cm longer than 23m and with longer formations that adds up.

Even if UK FLIRTs have 18m carriages (in common with other countries with FLIRTs), a pair of 3 car Flirts and 2 x articulated vehicles would be too long for platforms on various lines. I believe I read in Network Rail's CP5 platform lengthening plans that there were platforms on the Buxton and Southport lines which can't take a 4 car 156.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It shouldn't be a major problem, but Network Rail hasn't cleared any route for articulated stock in 20 years. Treat it like Network Rail has been asked to put a man on the moon and work back from that point.

Class 373 around 2000?
North Pole/Kings Cross via ECML to Leeds, WCML via Crewe to Manchester (never made it into Euston I think, before the Regional plan was dropped).

 

[47802]

It shouldn't be a major problem, but Network Rail hasn't cleared any route for articulated stock in 20 years. Treat it like Network Rail has been asked to put a man on the moon and work back from that point.

If I had a pound for everybody that said electrification shouldn't be a major problem, me and Richard Branson would be next door neighbours.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


FLIRT lengths with articulated bogies could vary from the usual 23 metres of conventional diesel units in GB. Coach length, train length and platform lengths available could be catastrophically out of sync, or they could dovetail beautifully, depending on what NR and Stadler come back with for overall unit length, assuming agreement can be reached, Stadler then bid, and Stadler then win a contract for an articulated design.

I really wouldn't get hung up on 46 metres, 69 metres and 92 metres train lengths just yet.

I wouldn't get hung about train lengths either at this stage, plus if a new TPX build is big enough to displace some 185's they could end up on Northern Regional Expresses

 

[northwichcat]

plus if a new TPX build is big enough to displace some 185's they could end up on Northern Regional Expresses

The Northern ITT said minimum 120 new vehicles in service by December 2019 and ruled out the use of existing 185s in their December 2019 train plan, even if TPE release some.

If 185s get released it could be DfT will look at them going to EMT or another operator.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Class 373 around 2000?
North Pole/Kings Cross via ECML to Leeds, WCML via Crewe to Manchester (never made it into Euston I think, before the Regional plan was dropped).

The clearance work was done earlier - lots of Class 373 testing went on in 1998 (so not quite 20 years).

 

[FordFocus]

The Bi-Mode seems quite an interesting idea but at the figure suggested, £2m per carriage? Seems quite expensive. Bombardier can probably whip up a Aventra Bi-Mode design for a bit less per carriage.

 

[northwichcat]

The Bi-Mode seems quite an interesting idea but at the figure suggested, £2m per carriage? Seems quite expensive. Bombardier can probably whip up a Aventra Bi-Mode design for a bit less per carriage.

£2m per carriage is the price being paid for the Texas FLIRTs, which is a small order (just 32 carriages.) An order of at least 120 carriages should attract a better price and if DfT allows an add-on order (either for Northern or another operator) that might attract an even lower price.

Of course if Bombardier feel they have enough work with the London Underground and Crossrail projects ongoing, no-one can force them to offer a product.

 

[zuriblue]

£2m per carriage is the price being paid for the Texas FLIRTs, which is a small order (just 32 carriages.) An order of at least 120 carriages should attract a better price and if DfT allows an add-on order (either for Northern or another operator) that might attract an even lower price.

Of course if Bombardier feel they have enough work with the London Underground and Crossrail projects ongoing, no-one can force them to offer a product.

Plus the Texas FLIRTs have all sorts of strengthening to be compliant with the US FRA crashworthiness regulations. Having said that a UK model will also be a one-off due to the loading gauge.

Looking at the Texas FLIRT I'm not sure if it has the normal layout that I see in Switzerland where the traction converter is built into both sides behind the cab with both outer bogies driven. This leaves a large dead space behind the cab (IIRC about 3m) as you can see in the picture. (© Ilka Siissato, 4Rail.net)

For UK versions the converters and transformer (usually put on the roof with a European FLIRT) could be put under the solebar.

(Mods, I'm not sure if I can embed this, if I'm not allowed to just say so)

 

[Greybeard33]

It shouldn't be a major problem, but Network Rail hasn't cleared any route for articulated stock in 20 years. Treat it like Network Rail has been asked to put a man on the moon and work back from that point.

The Sheffield tram-train is an articulated vehicle, is it not? Is that another reason for the project delays?

 

[Class377/5]

The Bi-Mode seems quite an interesting idea but at the figure suggested, £2m per carriage? Seems quite expensive. Bombardier can probably whip up a Aventra Bi-Mode design for a bit less per carriage.

£2m would be a good price. It's £1.5m per EMU coach (£1.8m for a cab) so £2m is about right.

 

[455driver]

The Sheffield tram-train is an articulated vehicle, is it not? Is that another reason for the project delays?

That's because the tram train is a solution looking for a problem!

 

[Haydn1971]

If 185s get released it could be DfT will look at them going to EMT or another operator.

I'm sure 2.5 carriages of replacement train for a 4 carriage 158 on the Norwich-Liverpool route would go down a storm ! A typhoon sized storm ! LOL

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure 2.5 carriages of replacement train for a 4 carriage 158 on the Norwich-Liverpool route would go down a storm ! A typhoon sized storm ! LOL

Platforms on the Liverpool-Nottingham section are supposed to be extended to take formations of up to 144m in length by April 2019. That's long enough for doubled up 185s.

 

[Haydn1971]

Long Term Passenger Rolling Stock Strategy for the Rail Industry predicts 62% to 77% of the UK network will be electrified by 2034 (77% if growth continues to be high for the next 20 years.) By 2034 even the older 170s and 175s will be approaching retirement if they haven't already been retired. How far can you stretch the newer Turbostars and 185s?

.

That's also based on pre MML/TPE electrification delays too IIRC ?

 

[glbotu]

I'm sure 2.5 carriages of replacement train for a 4 carriage 158 on the Norwich-Liverpool route would go down a storm ! A typhoon sized storm ! LOL

Couldn't go on Norwich - Liverpool because they won't get the Sprinter differentials on Norwich - Peterborough. A route that is already painfully slow.

 

[Haydn1971]

Platforms on the Liverpool-Nottingham section are supposed to be extended to take formations of up to 144m in length by April 2019. That's long enough for doubled up 185s.

Ah, the fabled doubled up 185 ! A rare beast on my travels. Also, I wonder if that proposal includes all the stops that TPE call at or all the stops that EMT calls at ?

 

[northwichcat]

Ah, the fabled doubled up 185 ! A rare beast on my travels. Also, I wonder if that proposal includes all the stops that TPE call at or all the stops that EMT calls at ?

The platform lengthening plans for CP5 in the old RRNW area are:

 4x 24m car length at Mossley Down, Greenfield Down, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington, Greenbank, Plumley Down, Ashley Down, Hathersage and Grindleford
 4 x 23m car length at Dove Holes, Chapel-en-le Frith, Middlewood, Woodsmoor, Humphrey Park, Glazebrook Down, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Moses Gate, Hall i’th’wood, Darwen, Ramsgreave & Wilpshire, Langho, Whalley and Clitheroe
 6 x 24m car length at Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central and Newton-le-Willows
 3 x 23m car at Bamber Bridge Up

So Birchwood isn't included but I don't know what it's current length is.

 

[Haydn1971]

 4x 24m car length at Mossley Down, Greenfield Down, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington, Greenbank, Plumley Down, Ashley Down, Hathersage and Grindleford

Does that suggest that Hope and Edale are long enough for 4x 24 already ? It's a small detail, but as you know, the first and a late EMT calls at these stations. I'm assuming Chinley is long enough, the platform seems to go on forever.

 

[northwichcat]

Does that suggest that Hope and Edale are long enough for 4x 24 already ? It's a small detail, but as you know, the first and a late EMT calls at these stations. I'm assuming Chinley is long enough, the platform seems to go on forever.

A RUS identified the Hope Valley stoppers and Mid-Cheshire line services as local services suitable to cascade 170s on to, so it's likely the 4 x 24m is to allow for a 4 car 170 to run a local service if required. Although, the Scotrail 170s are 3 car so maybe there would be some reforming to get 2 and 4 car 170s for Northern?

I imagine the early and late EMT services which stop at most Hope Valley stations would have the rear unit locked out of use if they finished up operated by 6 car formations.

Most of the others on that list are logical - allowing 4 car 156s to Buxton/Southport/Clitheroe without any restrictions and allowing 3 car 158s on York-Blackpool services to call at Bamber Bridge.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does that suggest that Hope and Edale are long enough for 4x 24 already ? It's a small detail, but as you know, the first and a late EMT calls at these stations. I'm assuming Chinley is long enough, the platform seems to go on forever.

Chinley (116m) and Edale (99m) are already long enough for 4 x 24 metre train lengths, but Hope falls just short at 95 metres in the Up and 88 metres in the Down direction.

 

[northwichcat]

Hope falls just short at 95 metres in the Up and 88 metres in the Down direction.

A 4 car 170 would actually be 94.48m long. If one was to stop on the down platform would it be possible for all passengers doors to be on the platform without being in the wrong place for a signal? If so that might be why it hasn't been included.

 

[sprinterguy]

A 4 car 170 would actually be 94.48m long. If one was to stop on the down platform would it be possible for all passengers doors to be on the platform without being in the wrong place for a signal? If so that might be why it hasn't been included.

I don't recall there being any signals in the Down direction which might influence the stopping location from when I've been there in the past (A quick Google image search seems to support my recollection).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So Birchwood isn't included but I don't know what it's current length is.

171m Up, 170m Down.
So already fit for 2x185 (or even 2x319).
They actually planned ahead there.

 

[trickyvegas]

171m Up, 170m Down.
So already fit for 2x185 (or even 2x319).
They actually planned ahead there.

I think some of the existing Liverpool - Scarborough services already run as 2x185