Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not aware of that. Are you sure that isn't just for the two services that have been determined? It would seem a bit strange to specify that the route a Transpennine Express train already runs on isn't to be suitable for such services in the future, when those services have yet to be defined.

The TPE path via Warrington Central will go to Northern for a local express service, when the TP Scarborough service transfers to Victoria.
There is no capacity for a 3rd fast path via Warrington C.
As it is, the 4tph (2 fast, 2 stoppers) take up all the capacity on the CLC route.
Warrington-Leeds will go to a new Chester-Warrington BQ-Victoria-Leeds service routed via Calder Valley.
It will be a long time before the 6th TPE path via Huddersfield starts, after electrification and more line upgrades.

 

[Camden]

The TPE path via Warrington Central will go to Northern for a local express service, when the TP Scarborough service transfers to Victoria.
There is no capacity for a 3rd fast path via Warrington C.
As it is, the 4tph (2 fast, 2 stoppers) take up all the capacity on the CLC route.
Warrington-Leeds will go to a new Chester-Warrington BQ-Victoria-Leeds service routed via Calder Valley.
It will be a long time before the 6th TPE path via Huddersfield starts, after electrification and more line upgrades.

And at such time the 6th TPE starts it's feasible the newly introduced Northern Regional service could be replaced. That would be capacity neutral, but reintroduce longer distance services (beyond Leeds) through Warrington Central.

but I emphasise that retention of the existing service would clearly meet both types of concern.

The best response I saw stated that given the importance now being realised in regard to east west links, rather than severing the link it ought to be improved upon.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And at such time the 6th TPE starts it's feasible the newly introduced Northern Regional service could be replaced. That would be capacity neutral, but reintroduce longer distance services (beyond Leeds) through Warrington Central.

That's not what the Northern Hub scheme will deliver.
The whole idea is to stop Stalybridge-Piccadilly-Oxford-Road trains crossing the Piccadilly throat, which means Huddersfield-Piccadilly-Warrington Central won't work.

 

[northwichcat]

It will be a long time before the 6th TPE path via Huddersfield starts, after electrification and more line upgrades.

No. The plan for December 2017 still is:

• Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria every 30 minutes
• Manchester Airport to York and beyond every 30 minutes.
• Manchester Piccadilly to Selby/Hull every 30 minutes

It was hoped the Airport-York services would be routed via the Ordsall Chord by then but it's now looking like they will still be via Piccadilly until a date no later than December 2019 (which is when the Leeds-Airport via Bradford services will start.)

The Selby/Hull services will call at alternate stations between Stalybridge and Leeds, eliminating the need for standard pattern all-stops services.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

No. The plan for December 2017 still is:

• Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria every 30 minutes
• Manchester Airport to York and beyond every 30 minutes.
• Manchester Piccadilly to Selby/Hull every 30 minutes

It was hoped the Airport-York services would be routed via the Ordsall Chord by then but it's now looking like they will still be via Piccadilly until a date no later than December 2019 (which is when the Leeds-Airport via Bradford services will start.)

The Selby/Hull services will call at alternate stations between Stalybridge and Leeds, eliminating the need for standard pattern all-stops services.

Somebody will have to spend some money then, as currently, Class 185s don't fit at Marsden, Slaithwaite and probably some of the stops between Huddersfield and Leeds.

 

[northwichcat]

Somebody will have to spend some money then, as currently, Class 185s don't fit at Marsden, Slaithwaite and probably some of the stops between Huddersfield and Leeds.

Platform lengthening has been included in Network Rail's delivery plan. However, the idea originally was the Hull/Selby services would be 185s in single formation and 170s in double formation meaning platforms would need to be at least 96m in length. I'm not sure what the plan will be now the 170s aren't available.

 

[LowLevel]

I would suggest a Norwich/Cambridge to Manchester service would be most use. Particularly Friday-Monday loadings can be really quite heavy in terms of through passengers from Manchester to the East and vice versa, Sunday afternoons in particular. While there are some through journeys from Warrington and Liverpool the real through journeys start at Manchester.

 

[Greybeard33]

And at such time the 6th TPE starts it's feasible the newly introduced Northern Regional service could be replaced. That would be capacity neutral, but reintroduce longer distance services (beyond Leeds) through Warrington Central.

That's not what the Northern Hub scheme will deliver.
The whole idea is to stop Stalybridge-Piccadilly-Oxford-Road trains crossing the Piccadilly throat, which means Huddersfield-Piccadilly-Warrington Central won't work.

And the Northern ITT specifies additional services to Northwich, Macclesfield and New Mills Newtown from December 2017. These will use the paths to/from Piccadilly that will be freed when the TPE Scarborough-Liverpool service no longer crosses the station throat.

 

[edwin_m]

I would suggest a Norwich/Cambridge to Manchester service would be most use. Particularly Friday-Monday loadings can be really quite heavy in terms of through passengers from Manchester to the East and vice versa, Sunday afternoons in particular. While there are some through journeys from Warrington and Liverpool the real through journeys start at Manchester.

I would have thought Liverpool to Sheffield was quite important, and without this service would involve either changing between P13/14 and the rest of the station at Piccadilly or changing between Piccadilly and Victoria.

That's why this service doesn't fit neatly into franchise (or crayonista!) maps. There isn't one dominant origin and destination, it is a series of overlapping shorter journeys so splitting it anywhere would affect a significant proportion of its users.

 

[johnnychips]

Excellent point. It would be surprising if two cities like Sheffield and Liverpool didn't have a direct service.

 

[po8crg]

There are routes from Victoria to Hope Valley which would allow a Liverpool-Sheffield without crossing the throat at Piccadilly

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Running via stockport as the liverpool norwich and the Clee-MIA services currently do doesnt impact the station throat anywhere near as much as something coming off the woodhead route and crossing into 13/14 does. There is space in the arches at Ardwick for a dive-under which would eliminate that conflict but that comes at a cost!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Somebody will have to spend some money then, as currently, Class 185s don't fit at Marsden, Slaithwaite and probably some of the stops between Huddersfield and Leeds.

Deighton is too short for 3x23m, as (I think) is Cottingley. All others can take a 3-car 158 so therefore a 185, including Ravensthorpe which is really neither use nor ornament anyway.

Running via stockport as the liverpool norwich and the Clee-MIA services currently do doesnt impact the station throat anywhere near as much as something coming off the woodhead route and crossing into 13/14 does. There is space in the arches at Ardwick for a dive-under which would eliminate that conflict but that comes at a cost!

Off the Woodhead route? That'd create some terrible wheel-flats! Assuming you meant Standedge, you are correct though. Even the North TPE Airport services don't have quite the impact of the Liverpool to Scarborough, which is why that service will be the first to switch away from running via Ardwick (I'm not including the Newcastle as that was a new service rather than a re-routing).

 

[chiltern trev]

Re Liverpool <> Norwich.

I have relatives in Lancashire and East Anglia. They use the Liverpool <> Norwich service to minimise the number of changes and avoid London. They all submitted comments.

They travel Liverpool or Manchester or other Lanacashire stations (using the same island platform change at Piccadilly through platforms) to Norwich - so an easy and straightforward journey.

 

[edwin_m]

There are routes from Victoria to Hope Valley which would allow a Liverpool-Sheffield without crossing the throat at Piccadilly

This would be much slower and the trains wouldn't be able to serve Warrington Central or Stockport.

 

[ag51ruk]

Re Liverpool <> Norwich.

I have relatives in Lancashire and East Anglia. They use the Liverpool <> Norwich service to minimise the number of changes and avoid London. They all submitted comments.

They travel Liverpool or Manchester or other Lanacashire stations (using the same island platform change at Piccadilly through platforms) to Norwich - so an easy and straightforward journey.

If the route was cut back to Liverpool - Nottingham, and the existing Leeds - Nottingham extended to run Leeds - Norwich (as sugested earlier) you would get a decent same platform interchange at Chesterfield

 

[edwin_m]

If the route was cut back to Liverpool - Nottingham, and the existing Leeds - Nottingham extended to run Leeds - Norwich (as sugested earlier) you would get a decent same platform interchange at Chesterfield

This would result in a very uneven service interval between Nottingham and Sheffield. The two trains are about 30min apart at present.

 

[po8crg]

This would be much slower and the trains wouldn't be able to serve Warrington Central or Stockport.

Not denying that they would slower, but the could serve Stockport (use the Stalybridge-Stockport line, rather than the New Mills route I suspect you're thinking of).

 

[BantamMenace]

How about TPE South becomes 1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes and 1tph ManAir to Hull via Doncaster?

That gives Sheffield a service to the Airport and one to Liverpool.

Leeds to Nottingham then extended to Norwich.

 

[Philip C]

How about TPE South becomes 1tph Liverpool to Cleethorpes and 1tph ManAir to Hull via Doncaster?

That gives Sheffield a service to the Airport and one to Liverpool.

Leeds to Nottingham then extended to Norwich.

I think that you will find that my postings (at #655 & #663 on this thread) set out my views on the pointlessness of extending the Leeds to Nottingham service to Grantham and beyond. Your latest proposal compounds this by cutting the direct service between Manchester and Chesterfield/Nottingham. I cannot imagine what benefit you'd wish to ascribe to your proposal.

 

[scandal]

Thanks for the responses on this and the ensuing debate!

Just a observation regarding the usefulness of the through service of which people are discussing - there is a significant penalty to through journeys presently at Nottingham with the coupling and uncoupling of the units (which seems to be about 10-15 minutes), adding onto this the reversals required at Sheffield adding another 4 minutes I do wonder about the benefits of this through service in comparison to a journey requiring an interchange, I would of thought the uncoulpling time delay would be similar to the interchange penalty value experience by passengers?

Additionally as has been noted in this thread Central Trains split a number of useful through services such as Nottingham to Hereford and Crewe - Skegness in the interests of time keeping, is there perhaps efficiency gains possible for TPE operating and managing the route portfolio across south TPE?

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the present Liverpool - Norwich service, ideally it would run via Dore South curve and Ely West curve, so as to eliminate the train from reversing direction twice.

The Liverpool Lime Street - Sheffield Midland common section could be every 30 minutes, with an hourly service to each of Cleethorpes and Hull Paragon. The present Leeds City - Sheffield Midland and Nottingham service could be increased to run every 30 minutes along the entire route, to compensate for the diversion of the Norwich service via Dore South. At the eastern end, the present Norwich Thorpe - Cambridge service could be doubled to every 30 minutes - perhaps an extension to Stansted Airport, so as maintain the same frequency between Norwich and Ely, and possibly improve the level of service at some of the stations east of Thetford. Furthermore, by extending the Birmingham - Leicester London Road service to Anglia (possibly Ipswich), this would compensate for the Liverpool - Norwich service being diverted via Ely West curve, and maintain the same level of service between Peterborough and Ely. By continuing the extended service to Ipswich, it would restore direct links between the Midlands and Ipswich, and combined with the short Cambridge - Ipswich AGA service, would improve the frequency over that common section of route.

Obviously, this would mean 3 limited stop trains per hour between Liverpool and west of Dore & Totley station via Warrington Central, which would most likely be tricky to slot in if a 30 minute frequency is maintained between Liverpool and Sheffield. It looks like we will have to make do with the Liverpool - Norwich service and Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service in their present form for the foreseeable future, until somebody comes up with a better suggestion and knows what they are doing.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Off the Woodhead route? That'd create some terrible wheel-flats!

Lol, it would! but i was referring to the general direction. TPE from stalybridge pick up what was the woodhead route at Guide bridge which was my meaning as you pointed out. Clee and sheffield services also run via ashburys as a diversion for TPE where hazel grove is not available, as well as northern stopper services via Hyde. Sometimes these services are routed into platform 12 which ties up the throat as much as LIV-SCA services running off the junction (plat13-14)

With much talk about capacity constraints and TPE electrification "paused" ill be interested to see what will happen with the northern hub works, ordsall chord, introduction of 442's etc mooted, as the diveunder at ardwick does keep popping up as an option. But with HS2 taking over the car park on the former woodhead side of london road (plats 1-4, piccadilly) there is potentially far worse conflict still to come. Will anything be made of mayfield as has been threatened so many times?....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

. Will anything be made of Mayfield as has been threatened so many times?....

I am unsure what you mean by this, as the redevelopment of the land area around and including the former Mayfield station has been known for some time now with many new buildings of all types scheduled. TfGM appear to be part of the organisations involved in the "Manchester in 2040" project.

 

[daniel3982]

Lincoln would be another sensible option for a destination east of Sheffield for TPE. Perhaps with stops at Worksop and Gainsborough on route. There has been talk of a local service Sheffield - Worksop eliminating the stops en-route to allow a fast service.

 

[Class 170101]

Additionally as has been noted in this thread Central Trains split a number of useful through services such as Nottingham to Hereford and Crewe - Skegness in the interests of time keeping,

I am surprised Central Trains got away with this in all honesty. Not only would it have required more units but also breaking east / west linkages. It wouldn't be acceptable to break Cross Country at Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds and Newcastle in the name of performance.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I am surprised Central Trains got away with this in all honesty. Not only would it have required more units but also breaking east / west linkages. It wouldn't be acceptable to break Cross Country at Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds and Newcastle in the name of performance.

I know what you mean, but weren't most of the services initially combined relatively recently anyway in an attempt to use stock more efficiently? Services like Aberystwyth to Skegness, as existed for a while under CT, probably didn't carry many end-to-end passengers I'd have thought. In any case they'd have been split when the Wales and Borders franchise was created anyway. With long single sections at both ends, it isn't surprising that reliability suffered.

 

[edwin_m]

I am surprised Central Trains got away with this in all honesty. Not only would it have required more units but also breaking east / west linkages. It wouldn't be acceptable to break Cross Country at Bristol, Birmingham, Leeds and Newcastle in the name of performance.

I think Central were instructed to do it by the SRA or whoever was in charge at the time. Leicester-Nuneaton was probably the worst victim, going from 4TPH to 2TPH with the Coventry-Nottingham becoming a Coventry-Nuneaton shuttle and the Lincoln-Leicester-Birmingham-Shrewsbury being deleted between Leicester and Birmingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not denying that they would slower, but the could serve Stockport (use the Stalybridge-Stockport line, rather than the New Mills route I suspect you're thinking of).

I don't think Network Rail would be keen on having the Down train crossing both Up lines at Heaton Norris, having already done so a few minutes previously at Edgeley No2. Remotely possible if Stockport to Slade Lane ever gets the Down-Up-Down-Up configuration once proposed.

 

[Class 170101]

I know what you mean, but weren't most of the services initially combined relatively recently anyway in an attempt to use stock more efficiently? Services like Aberystwyth to Skegness, as existed for a while under CT,

Great Yarmouth to Barmouth under BR?

 

[ianhr]

Great Yarmouth to Barmouth under BR?

In the early 1980's BR had a policy of introducing new through workings over routes which previously would have involved multiple changes and/or a journey via London. Many of these were loco hauled. This is when the Liverpool-Norwich trains were introduced, I don't think that there had ever been a through N.W. to East Anglia train before. N.W. to South Coast trains were introduced on a year round daily timetable and there was even a Man Picc to Newhaven Habour train with a change from electric to diesel traction on the West London line. I believe Yorkshire to North Wales via Man Vic trains were also introduced at this time and these have sadly been lost.