Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[Haydn1971]

By key I mean a regular service through the day - not a two in the morning type thing

 

[BurtonM]

Are wires going to reach Stalybridge? That'd mean electric from Man Vic to Stalybridge via Ashton and/or Guide Bridge to Stalybridge depending on which route you mean. If it's not going all the way to York (and surely you mean Leeds) I don't see much of a point running wires east of Pic and Vic unless you're going to facilitate turnback, extend terminating services to SYB or something.

 

[kjhskj75]

Are wires going to reach Stalybridge? That'd mean electric from Man Vic to Stalybridge via Ashton and/or Guide Bridge to Stalybridge depending on which route you mean. If it's not going all the way to York (and surely you mean Leeds) I don't see much of a point running wires east of Pic and Vic unless you're going to facilitate turnback, extend terminating services to SYB or something.

I believe it is still part of the plan.

Work has already been done to improve turnback facilities there. And until recently there was a service from Liverpool to Stalybridge.

 

[po8crg]

Are wires going to reach Stalybridge? That'd mean electric from Man Vic to Stalybridge via Ashton and/or Guide Bridge to Stalybridge depending on which route you mean.

Both, is my understanding.

If it's not going all the way to York (and surely you mean Leeds) I don't see much of a point running wires east of Pic and Vic unless you're going to facilitate turnback, extend terminating services to SYB or something.

It's for turnback. There are no West-facing bay platforms in Manchester (the one at Oxford Road is being closed in order to lengthen the four through platforms). Being able to run trains through to Stalybridge for turnback means that trains are not being turned at through platforms at Victoria, which creates through-paths for Northern Hub services going around the Ordsall Chord.

Guide Bridge-Stalybridge is less necessary, but I think they want to do it at the same time so they don't have to disrupt Stalybridge again when TPE happens.

 

[edwin_m]

There is also going to be a power feed at Stalybridge, so if the wiring doesn't reach there the system may be less resilient to power failures.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I personally think Victoria-Stalybridge is vulnerable to postponement in the current climate.
It is expensive per mile and doesn't deliver many benefits without TP wires continuing eastwards.
It also has the same problems at the TP project (poor line speeds and capacity) which really need resolving before the wiring starts.
It also requires resignalling of the semaphore section at Ashton Moss.
The connecting Philips Park-Ashburys line assumed electric TP working too.

The NW project itself is currently in a funny state, with contractor problems.
Northern Hub is in the doghouse too.
It is just the kind of project which would be lopped from the programme if there is further cost or design pressure, at least until TP/Northern Hub issues are resolved.
Sorry this is gloomy but it's what happens when you overrun/overspend.

 

[northwichcat]

I personally think Victoria-Stalybridge is vulnerable to postponement in the current climate.
It is expensive per mile and doesn't deliver many benefits without TP wires continuing eastwards.

I wonder if they'll be enough platform capacity at Victoria for the planned service enhancements if the Lime Street services continue to terminate there blocking through platforms instead of continuing to Stalybridge as proposed. If that is the case I wonder if the TOC is asked to propose a solution whether they can up with anything other than a choice of no enhancements or to run DMUs on Chat Moss so they can continue beyond Victoria.

 

[Viscount702]

The Lime Street services won't be going to Victoria after the 2017 timetable change as they will go to the Airport instead. The new regional service from Lime street will use the Warrington Line but it is not clear where it will go. We assume the Airport but that hasn't been confirmed.

Where the problem will be is terminating electric services from the Bolton line. These were to go to Stalybridge.

Under the Hub line speed and capacity enhancements and signalling were to be done between Victoria and Stalybridge. Presumable these are still the plan but I also have concerns about what is happening to the whole NW projects.

 

[BantamMenace]

I wonder if they'll be enough platform capacity at Victoria for the planned service enhancements if the Lime Street services continue to terminate there blocking through platforms instead of continuing to Stalybridge as proposed. If that is the case I wonder if the TOC is asked to propose a solution whether they can up with anything other than a choice of no enhancements or to run DMUs on Chat Moss so they can continue beyond Victoria.

As i understand it TPE cannot run around the Ordsall Chord and through Victoria until the Northern electrics continue to Stalybridge and the Northern diesels to Rochdale.

Therefore you either electrify to Stalybridge before the chord is operational or end up with a chord that is unable to be used due to lack of paths through ManVic.

 

[northwichcat]

The Lime Street services won't be going to Victoria after the 2017 timetable change as they will go to the Airport instead.
...
Where the problem will be is terminating electric services from the Bolton line. These were to go to Stalybridge.

Yes I forgot it was now

Twenty-six services departing from Salford Crescent to Manchester shall also call at Salford Central, Ashton-under-Lyne and Stalybridge.

The new regional service from Lime street will use the Warrington Line but it is not clear where it will go. We assume the Airport but that hasn't been confirmed.

On that the accompanying notes with the Northern ITT stated there would be a Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington Central Regional Express service even though the service specification spreadsheet doesn't clearly say that.
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As i understand it TPE cannot run around the Ordsall Chord and through Victoria until the Northern electrics continue to Stalybridge and the Northern diesels to Rochdale.

Therefore you either electrify to Stalybridge before the chord is operational or end up with a chord that is unable to be used due to lack of paths through ManVic.

TPE are supposed to provide a half-hourly Lime Street to Leeds via Victoria service from December 2017 regardless of what's happening with the Ordsall Chord. On top of that there will be a new Chester-Victoria-Bradford-Leeds service and possibly the North Wales-Manchester services will be diverted to Victoria (to require a terminating path) if there isn't a path available for those services to run to the Airport.

The Yorkshire-Manchester Airport changes (including the new Bradford-Airport service) are to happen no later than December 2019.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I understand it, Victoria to Stalybridge is part of the North West electrification, not the Transpennine scheme. At the moment, one of the two locals via Ashton terminates at Stalybridge with the other running to Huddersfield. The Huddersfield local is set to be withdrawn to allow 6tph, and replaced with calls on the two semi-fasts. I'd have thought Stalybridge to Guide Bridge is more likely to be postponed than via Ashton.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd guess that Stalybridge to Guide Bridge is so short that it's probably cheaper to let it go ahead than to cancel it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd guess that Stalybridge to Guide Bridge is so short that it's probably cheaper to let it go ahead than to cancel it.

I would hope you're right, the only issue being that currently nothing runs this way and terminates at Stalybridge except the Denton flyer, so no DMUs released based on the current timetable. If TPE eventually gets bi-mode units it would allow a bit more running on electric mode, on the assumption that the through platforms are wired as part of the initial scheme.

 

[northwichcat]

I would hope you're right, the only issue being that currently nothing runs this way and terminates at Stalybridge except the Denton flyer, so no DMUs released based on the current timetable. If TPE eventually gets bi-mode units it would allow a bit more running on electric mode, on the assumption that the through platforms are wired as part of the initial scheme.

I imagine if TPE get bi-mode the Liverpool-Newcastle via Victoria route will be the route the bi-modes are focused on. I also wouldn't be surprised if they finish up on Scottish services as it may be easier to get a consistent bi-mode fleet then getting some bi-mode and some electric.

Wiring through Guide Bridge might help some EMUs get to/from Newton Heath or Ardwick depots.

 

[BurtonM]

Wiring through Guide Bridge might help some EMUs get to/from Newton Heath or Ardwick depots.

Very true - there are diesel ECS moves from NH to Piccadilly that reverse at Stalybridge in the early hours of the morning.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wiring through Guide Bridge might help some EMUs get to/from Newton Heath or Ardwick depots.

Has anything officially been said about electrification at Newton Heath depot?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has anything officially been said about electrification at Newton Heath depot?

No.
DfT/NR are not going to add new bits when the policy is to "pause" projects.

 

[WatcherZero]

The bidders will have to sort out a new depot strategy, current Northern franchise has been doing some planning looking at possible stabling locations but they've said they need another electric stabling depot and nothing has been sorted as yet.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The bidders will have to sort out a new depot strategy, current Northern franchise has been doing some planning looking at possible stabling locations but they've said they need another electric stabling depot and nothing has been sorted as yet.

Newton Heath would seem to be the no-brainer to me.

 

[Viscount702]

They were considering one at Guide Bridge but it wasn't taken forward. I don't know why as it would be an ideal location for stock for both Piccadilly and Victoria services.

 

[Darren R]

Isn't Newton Heath TMD already bursting at the seams with the current allocation of DMUs? The number of DMUs isn't going to be reduced significantly anytime soon, even after the current electrification schemes are completed. I thought that was the one of the reasons for reopening Allerton depot.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Would the 120 new self-powered carriages come with a maintenance depot or major enhancements to one? If it would, and Newton Heath were picked, then it might make sense to wire it at the same time, especially if the self-powered trains were capable of being powered by overhead lines, either immediately or after a later conversion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Surely there is plenty of spare space at Newton Heath for a depot upgrade?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you cast your mind back to the rolling stock order that never was (10 years or so, doesn't time fly?) a number of sites were identified for light maintenance depots or stabling sidings. What remains of the former Hillhouse shed site in Huddersfield was one, and I believe the "v" of the Halifax/Leeds lines at Bradford Interchange was another (though I don't think you'd fit much there!). Presumably similar sites were identified West of the Pennines...

 

[BurtonM]

Surely there is plenty of spare space at Newton Heath for a depot upgrade?

Meanwhile in cloud cuckoo land, you could always run some track into Manchester Mayfield for a little extra storage too.

 

[156441]

Rumour on the internal grape vine is that Wigan Springs Branch will be part of the new franchise and Emus will stable there.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely once Blackpool North is wired Class 319s could stable there?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Meanwhile in cloud cuckoo land, you could always run some track into Manchester Mayfield for a little extra storage too.

Not even the most hardy of cuckoos would even consider entering the roofless edifice that now is the sad remains of Mayfield station...:roll:

 

[darloscott]

It's great suggesting existing depots to stable units but don't forget a 319 is twice the length of say a 150 so you won't get as many units into existing sites

 

[thealexweb]

I agree. They don't want the franchise to incur costs in running a replacement bus service to serve Bolton/Wigan each time engineering works occur.

I understand that that would save money but if the demand for a night service from Bolton existed only two years ago why would it not exist now?
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Oh, did I miss that?

Preston-Bolton-Manchester is the route of the next Transpennine's Scottish services from December 2017 I believe. Preston-Wigan-Manchester may only be used for diversionary purposes.
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It looks like the bidder can choose to run them Manchester-Preston non-stop if they wish or could stop them at up to a maximum of 2 stations between Manchester Oxford Rd and Preston

Now that I have had the chance to think about this a bit more it would be sheer madness not to include Chorley as a station stop on the Barrow-in-Furness and Windermere services. If another route is chosen, e.g. Bolton and Wigan North Western, where will this leave Chorley? It will leave Chorley with no guaranteed access to long distance services.