Northern/TPE Invitation to Tender published

[Darren R]

Is there a reason why they can't have a 'set down' only restriction on the morning southbound services and a 'pick up' only restriction on the evening northbound services, so that Bolton passengers can still use them to get to and from Preston and beyond, even if they can't use them as commuter services to/from Manchester.

Of course the short answer is 'no.' The trouble is it's unenforceable - especially on such a short journey like Bolton to Manchester. Even though Bolton wouldn't appear as a station call on the PIS at Manchester, and the Manchester-bound services wouldn't appear at all on the screens at Bolton, they are still shown in timetables. It doesn't take long for regulars to work it out. Ticket checks before/after travel won't stop the practice and on-board checks are unlikely to either given how short the journey is and how busy the trains are.

The net result would still be long distance trains full of short distance passengers. At peak times, in the peak flow direction, it would be better to send the TPE services via Chat Moss and free up a path for an extra stopper for commuters.

 

[northwichcat]

No services are 4x156.

At present. However, from May this year most Blackpool-Airport services will become 4 car 156s. An additional Hazel Grove-Preston diagram will become 4 car from May (postponed from last December due to Chat Moss electrification delays.)

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Of course the short answer is 'no.' The trouble is it's unenforceable - especially on such a short journey like Bolton to Manchester. Even though Bolton wouldn't appear as a station call on the PIS at Manchester, and the Manchester-bound services wouldn't appear at all on the screens at Bolton, they are still shown in timetables. It doesn't take long for regulars to work it out. Ticket checks before/after travel won't stop the practice and on-board checks are unlikely to either given how short the journey is and how busy the trains are.

The net result would still be long distance trains full of short distance passengers. At peak times, in the peak flow direction, it would be better to send the TPE services via Chat Moss and free up a path for an extra stopper for commuters.

Virgin managed to enforce set-down and pick-up restrictions at Stockport prior to December 2008. They relieved those restrictions when London-Manchester went to 3tph and a side-effect of that was surplus capacity on some trains less paths for Northern services to run in to Manchester at peak times. While they still have restrictions of peak time services calling at Watford Junction and Milton Keynes.

 

[Deerfold]

Won't there be more services off-peak, given they'll be Scottish services via Bolton and Barrow services will become more regular?

There will be no services during the high peak period that we were discussing.

 

[Darren R]

Virgin managed to enforce set-down and pick-up restrictions at Stockport prior to December 2008. They relieved those restrictions when London-Manchester went to 3tph and a side-effect of that was surplus capacity on some trains less paths for Northern services to run in to Manchester at peak times. While they still have restrictions of peak time services calling at Watford Junction and Milton Keynes.

Curiously enough I was going to cite Stockport as an example to back up my argument that it's unenforceable! Whilst the restriction was still in place I used to see passengers using Virgin (and BR before them!) trains for the short hop to/from Stockport every time I made the trip to London. On one occasion the self-styled Eco Warrior Swampy got on at Stockport and took a seat opposite me in First Class - covered in mud I might add! When we arrived at Piccadilly and the on-board staff stood on the platform as passengers disembarked, they even thanked him and bade him farewell!

 

[northwichcat]

Curiously enough I was going to cite Stockport as an example to back up my argument that it's unenforceable! Whilst the restriction was still in place I used to see passengers using Virgin (and BR before them!) trains for the short hop to/from Stockport every time I made the trip to London. On one occasion the self-styled Eco Warrior Swampy got on at Stockport and took a seat opposite me in First Class - covered in mud I might add! When we arrived at Piccadilly and the on-board staff stood on the platform as passengers disembarked, they even thanked him and bade him farewell!

Well in the Manchester direction it's perhaps harder to enforce, given platforms 3 and 4 were always used for Manchester bound services and Virgin would never start/terminate at Stockport. The PA announcer did always say prior to a Manchester bound service arriving something along the lines of "The train at platform 3 is not for public use. Do not board this train." However, they later added something at the end to say "This train is the xx: xx arrival from London Euston"

 

[158756]

No it doesn't, it says paths must be provided for 1tph Manchester Airport-Scotland to call at Bolton except those running into Manchester in the morning peak and those leaving Manchester in the evening peak will not be required to call at Bolton. Bolton may also be designated a pick up only station according to accompanying service specification.

The instructions for Manchester-Wigan-Preston state that TPE bidders
'Must not plan to operate any services over this route during the hours within which these instructions apply'(0700-1959, Mon-Sat)

That seems to say that TPE have to use paths via Bolton in the peaks despite not stopping there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Curiously enough I was going to cite Stockport as an example to back up my argument that it's unenforceable!

As was I. Watford has just 1tph of VTs which serve a different platform to the LMs, so few would bother trying it on (though I recall staff trying to chase someone off on the old fNW London service years ago but failing to find them!) MKC, I don't know how well it works. At Stockport I don't remember it ever being enforced, its only real purpose was to allow early running.

Neil

 

[158756]

Also they'll be a Northern express shuttle between Manchester and Wigan and there may be Liverpool-Scotland TPE services which portion work with Manchester services north of Preston..

Is there actually any requirement for express services between Wigan and Manchester? As far as I can see the consultation response says an 'additional' Northern service, but not fast.

In the spreadsheets, Departures from Manchester 1000-1559:
Wigan 36, Atherton 24, Westhoughton 12 . So those requirements can be met solely by the stoppers.
If indeed the Atherton requirement is correctly stated, which I have doubts about, because an increase in service is implied by the spreadsheet, but it wasn't in the press release, which makes me wonder if it's a mistake.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TPE Scotland service is going back to the Bolton route when it is wired, but there will be a replacement Northern Wigan NW-Manchester service, presumably an EMU via Chat Moss.
Will this just be a shuttle or will it have a longer route? I suppose it might call at Eccles.
With the prospect of an electric service via Bolton as well, the bay platforms at Wigan NW could be quite busy, despite the 10/15mph crawl over a single set of points to reach them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If indeed the Atherton requirement is correctly stated, which I have doubts about, because an increase in service is implied by the spreadsheet, but it wasn't in the press release, which makes me wonder if it's a mistake.

I forget where I read it now, but I believe a substantial increase in service on the Atherton line is proposed.

Neil

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I forget where I read it now, but I believe a substantial increase in service on the Atherton line is proposed.

Neil

In recent times, has there been a certain amount of attention paid to the track on the Atherton line?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I forget where I read it now, but I believe a substantial increase in service on the Atherton line is proposed.

Neil

Enough of an increase to make it a contender for CP6 wiring? That would rather put the dampeners on any Tram-Train plans though...

Or not, given that AIUI the tram-train vehicles being sourced for the Rotherham trial will have (at least) passive provision to run on 25kv OHLE in the event of Sheffield to Moorthorpe being wired for heavy rail.
Come to think of it, tram-trains might be the reason for the increase in service frequency, though I'd have thought the ITT would make reference to that if it were the case.

If the Atherton line was wired at 25kv, there'd perhaps be the option of running some TPE services that way, but that and tram-trains would most likely be mutually exclusive.

 

[Bevan Price]

In recent times, has there been a certain amount of attention paid to the track on the Atherton line?

If they have, it has not been enough to allow them to increase the overall 50 mph speed limit as far as Crow Nest Jn.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In recent times, has there been a certain amount of attention paid to the track on the Atherton line?

It's been resignalled and is now a sluggish 50mph route, but I think it is long-welded throughout.
The low speed is not important for DMU stoppers, but it doesn't help fast services.
Crow Nest Jn is also 50mph so the trains just run through (60mph west to Hindley).
It feels like the crippled 4-track main line it is.
The best bit is that the station canopies for the island platforms are still there so there is some L&Y character to the line.

 

[kjhskj75]

I forget where I read it now, but I believe a substantial increase in service on the Atherton line is proposed.

Neil

It's going up to 4 trains per hour, according to the Train service requirement table for the new franchise. (see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...tsr-table-december-2017-monday-to-friday.xlsx sheets MCR4A/B)

 

[edwin_m]

Atherton line was mostly CWR on steel sleepers when I looked at it in 2012. As it's a good alignment a faster speed ought to be possible, unless there are still problems with subsidence.

The Sheffield tram-trains will have 25kV capability from the start, but won't be able to use it unless/until electrification extends northwards from Sheffield.

 

[northwichcat]

Is there actually any requirement for express services between Wigan and Manchester? As far as I can see the consultation response says an 'additional' Northern service, but not fast.

In the spreadsheets, Departures from Manchester 1000-1559:
Wigan 36, Atherton 24, Westhoughton 12 . So those requirements can be met solely by the stoppers.

I think I've sussed the service pattern. It sounds like they'll be limited stops services via Bolton

Sixty services departing from Manchester to Salford Central shall also call at each of Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan.

While there's a requirement for 34 services per day (in the Wigan direction) calling at Westhoughton, which to me suggests 34 of those 60 services will be stopping services and 26 will be semi-fast services and will have to run from Victoria to be able to accommodate the Salford Central call.

Then in another part of the document

Twenty-six services departing from Salford Crescent to Manchester shall also call at Ashton-under-Lyne and Stalybridge.

So likely a half-hourly semi-fast service from Stalybridge to Wigan calling at Ashton-under-Lyne, Victoria, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan for most of the day.

 

[WatcherZero]

The instructions for Manchester-Wigan-Preston state that TPE bidders
'Must not plan to operate any services over this route during the hours within which these instructions apply'(0700-1959, Mon-Sat)

That seems to say that TPE have to use paths via Bolton in the peaks despite not stopping there.

Theres a get out clause, it says the instructions apply to the bid only not the franchise agreement and if they can show that there would be no material impact on a competitors reliability then they may be ignored, though if there is judged to be material impact for better or worse this will affect their train service category scoring.

 

[323235]

What is happening to the Leeds - Goole service as I didn't see this in the ITT?

 

[158756]

I think I've sussed the service pattern. It sounds like they'll be limited stops services via Bolton



While there's a requirement for 34 services per day (in the Wigan direction) calling at Westhoughton, which to me suggests 34 of those 60 services will be stopping services and 26 will be semi-fast services and will have to run from Victoria to be able to accommodate the Salford Central call.

Then in another part of the document



So likely a half-hourly semi-fast service from Stalybridge to Wigan calling at Ashton-under-Lyne, Victoria, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan for most of the day.

I suppose this depends how we interpret the 'each of' sentence, which isn't used anywhere else in the TSR.

I've assumed it to mean 60 Salford-Bolton(including to Blackburn and Preston) and 60 Salford-Wigan(including via Atherton), which requires fewer trains and is cheaper than 60 Salford-Bolton-Wigan.

It'd be great if it is 60 trains to Wigan via Bolton, but the press release and consultation talks of 6tph to Wigan, with no mention of extra Northern services for Bolton, so I personally doubt they'd have put a requirement for more in the TSR.

So, in my (perhaps pessimistic) opinion, the TSR can be met by 2tph Stalybridge/Manchester-Wigan calling at Bolton and Westhoughton, one maybe or maybe not calling at Farnworth etc. Plus Atherton services.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think ultimately the government when it has received the bids and has an idea of who the winners are likely to be (anonymised) and what their offering service wise will then be trying to merge the two franchise bid timetables into one coherent whole and to fill in any gaps during the detailed negotations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose this depends how we interpret the 'each of' sentence, which isn't used anywhere else in the TSR.

Has anyone any knowledge as to why would this have occurred?

 

[northwichcat]

I suppose this depends how we interpret the 'each of' sentence, which isn't used anywhere else in the TSR.

I've assumed it to mean 60 Salford-Bolton(including to Blackburn and Preston) and 60 Salford-Wigan(including via Atherton), which requires fewer trains and is cheaper than 60 Salford-Bolton-Wigan.

So, in my (perhaps pessimistic) opinion, the TSR can be met by 2tph Stalybridge/Manchester-Wigan calling at Bolton and Westhoughton, one maybe or maybe not calling at Farnworth etc. Plus Atherton services.

Given the wording is

Sixty services departing from Manchester to Salford Central shall also call at each of Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan.

I think that's a requirement for 60 services from Manchester to Wigan via Bolton. If it should include Blackburn services then the wording should be

Sixty services departing from Manchester to Salford Central shall also call at Salford Crescent and Bolton with x services continuing to Wigan.

The requirement stated elsewhere is for 32 services per day from Manchester to Blackburn/Clitheroe via Bolton, so 34 services calling at Westhoughton and 32 services to Blackburn/Clitheroe via Bolton doesn't give a total of 60. Also the requirement for services at Atherton is much lower than the requirement for services at Wigan with the expectation that at least most Southport services would operate via Atherton, rather than the current arrangement where around half go via Bolton.

Therefore, if what you suggest is correct there's been multiple errors made in the specification.

 

[unlevel42]

...
Or not, given that AIUI the tram-train vehicles being sourced for the Rotherham trial will have (at least) passive provision to run on 25kv OHLE in the event of Sheffield to Moorthorpe being wired for heavy rail...

The proposed Sheffield to Moorthorpe electrification is via Mexborough and so does not share any track with Sheffield Rotherham tram-train.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The proposed Sheffield to Moorthorpe electrification is via Mexborough and so does not share any track with Sheffield Rotherham tram-train.

You'd hope than any electrification between Sheffield-Moorthorpe would at least include the Rotherham Central loop, where it would in fact share track with the planned tram-train.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The proposed Sheffield to Moorthorpe electrification is via Mexborough and so does not share any track with Sheffield Rotherham tram-train.

You'd hope than any electrification between Sheffield-Moorthorpe would at least include the Rotherham Central loop, where it would in fact share track with the planned tram-train.

I believe that if Sheffield to Moorthorpe and Doncaster goes ahead, the Rotherham Central loop would be included, to avoid at least 2tph still being diesel-powered. This is also the reason for the tram-train vehicles having 25kv capability.

 

[daniel3982]

Perhaps Super tram will extend toward Doncaster to replace some of the stoppers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps Super tram will extend toward Doncaster to replace some of the stoppers.

......cue arrival of the porcine squadron..

 

[krus_aragon]

......cue arrival of the porcine squadron..

The Hambusters? :P

 

[thealexweb]

Its 20mph actually

My mistake :P
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Won't the electric trains have a higher capacity and some of the DMU's get lengthened by the units cascaded as a result of electrification?

I imagine there will be a case of two car DMUs being replacing four car EMUs. However getting the peak loadings down to a 99% average in five years sounds like there will continue to be big increases in demand offsetting the extra capacity.
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You need to treat these types of figures with caution for two reasons:

1. It likely only counts morning peak arrivals in to Manchester and evening peak departures from Manchester. If it doesn't the figures then the figures are wrong as some 'overcapacity' services have been excluded.

2. A 20 minute standing rule applies. Remember the DfT most overcrowded trains list included a Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough service which didn't call at Stalybridge or Dewsbury? That means every standard class passenger without a seat is classed as a passenger in excess of the train's capacity. However, if the train called at Stalybridge and Dewsbury and had the same total number of passengers it would be classed as less crowded because there's less than 20 minutes between stations.
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Just to be clear here. They'll be regular Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Manchester Airport to Barrow services as well as occasional Manchester Airport to Windermere services operated as regional express services by the next Northern franchisee.

Also they'll be a Northern express shuttle between Manchester and Wigan and there may be Liverpool-Scotland TPE services which portion work with Manchester services north of Preston.
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Is there a reason why they can't have a 'set down' only restriction on the morning southbound services and a 'pick up' only restriction on the evening northbound services, so that Bolton passengers can still use them to get to and from Preston and beyond, even if they can't use them as commuter services to/from Manchester.

I cannot see any reason why any of the Scottish peak time services cannot physically stop at Bolton, other than a set down only being difficult to enforce.