Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[johntea]

Since they updated the app it seems to be complete pot luck as to if you'll actually be able to successfully purchase a ticket or not! Which could make for an interesting conversation with revenue protection, as there is potential if the transaction fails a couple of times through the app for your bank to then block your payment method until you contact them to report it isn't fraud!

 

[Puffing Devil]

Since they updated the app it seems to be complete pot luck as to if you'll actually be able to successfully purchase a ticket or not! Which could make for an interesting conversation with revenue protection, as there is potential if the transaction fails a couple of times through the app for your bank to then block your payment method until you contact them to report it isn't fraud!

View attachment 40672

I've found buying online and sending the tix to my phone to be reliable.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Apologies if I am just being a bit thick here but how is having an app on yor phone which you will have in your hand on the way to the station or indeed even that morning over a bit of breakfast more inconvenient or convoluted of having to queue up behind others and work your way around a TVM - especially if you are a first time user?

What is an 'app on a phone'? No-one creates apps or software for my Siemens A52!

 

[Clip]

What is an 'app on a phone'? No-one creates apps or software for my Siemens A52!

I'm pretty sure you know what one is don't you

 

[xotGD]

Passengers still being sold tickets on the train with no mention of penalty fares. Not even a ticket check for those who do not ask to buy one.

 

[Peakrider]

(How I hate those ad-riddled local newspaper sites)

Anyway, lots of hot air from a less than useless MP whose only guarantee of a job is that people in this area don't like voting for any other party. I'm sure Arriva are quaking in their boots at his threat to do "everything in his power" to remove them at the next franchise. This from an MP that sends most of his time talking waffle in the House to stop certain bills from being heard and voted on. I wouldn't hold him to his word, heck I wouldn't buy a second hand car from the man.

All of this does beg a question though. I can understand strong feelings against Northern on here from members of staff, but from a wider perspective they have been improving for most passengers and for most this new policy simply means a trip to the ticket machine before getting onboard. Its really not a hardship for most, and is pretty standard on rail networks around the world. So like I have said previously, I cautiously welcome this scheme providing of course they ensure that passengers are given at least some more information on what is expected of them, and the policy is handled sensibly especially in the first few months as it beds in. So why doesn't everyone at least see just how it actually works out, instead of leaping to conclusions and making assumptions? I for one as a user of these lines daily be very interested to see just how it pans out, and if it works and reduces the chronic fare evasion I see on a regular basis I will welcome it.

Well competent railway provides across the world do tend to offer the full range of available tickets. Interestingly Arribas owners DB are a fab hand at providing ticket machines that not only offer all tickets and day rovers but also allow you to buy a ticket from any German.

 

[Deerfold]

Well competent railway provides across the world do tend to offer the full range of available tickets. Interestingly Arribas owners DB are a fab hand at providing ticket machines that not only offer all tickets and day rovers but also allow you to buy a ticket from any German.

You can buy from any German? Now that does sound handy.

 

[Mathew S]

Just seen this vandalised TVM as I was passing through Moses Gate, just can't give some people nice things...

 

[roversfan2001]

Just seen this vandalised TVM as I was passing through Moses Gate, just can't give some people nice things...
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I get what you are saying, but a machine that means you now have no chance of a free journey isn't a 'nice thing'

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Having waited the maximum period allowed under the law, and then the maximum extension allowed in order to conduct 'public interest tests' DfT has declined to confirm, once again, that Northern have an approved Penalty Fares Scheme. Indeed they have declined to provide, thus far, any information whatsoever. But they do hold some information. Next update in another 11 days.

 

[323235]

Just seen this vandalised TVM as I was passing through Moses Gate, just can't give some people nice things...
View attachment 41116

That's what you get with such unnecessarily huge screens , they're just too tempting for vandals to break.

 

[Mathew S]

That's what you get with such unnecessarily huge screens , they're just too tempting for vandals to break.

Indeed. Though it's probably wrong that what annoys me most is that the hole isn't quite in the middle.

 

[Adsy125]

This was request was recently answered, saying the 2002 SRA rules still apply on penalty Fares Schemes. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/penalty_fares_schemes_2#incoming-1097021

 

[Merseysider]

Having waited the maximum period allowed under the law, and then the maximum extension allowed in order to conduct 'public interest tests' DfT has declined to confirm, once again, that Northern have an approved Penalty Fares Scheme. Indeed they have declined to provide, thus far, any information whatsoever. But they do hold some information. Next update in another 11 days.

The cynic in me says they’re scurrying to Northern to get all the previously non-existent paperwork in order

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone's shot that TVM with an air rifle or BB gun. Seems to be a common problem up North with many station signs being pock-marked from this.

 

[AlterEgo]

Someone's shot that TVM with an air rifle or BB gun. Seems to be a common problem up North with many station signs being pock-marked from this.

I’ve seen this in south London too. Definitely an air rifle of some sort to make a perfectly circular hole like that.

 

[AndrewE]

I’ve seen this in south London too. Definitely an air rifle of some sort to make a perfectly circular hole like that.

Is a circular hole uniquely characteristic of an air gun or pistol then? (Why a rifle?) Maybe you meant "a gun of some sort" - rather than a stone or a club?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is a circular hole uniquely characteristic of an air gun or pistol then? (Why a rifle?) Maybe you meant "a gun of some sort" - rather than a stone or a club?

BB gun, air gun, potato patata.

 

[xotGD]

Guards still selling tickets to passengers on Airedale services. No mention of penalty fares.

 

[A Challenge]

That's working well then...

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The cynic in me says they’re scurrying to Northern to get all the previously non-existent paperwork in order

As a full-time cynic with a side hobby in conspiracy theories, I would be tempted to agree. But late yesterday (29/1/18) I finally received a response to my FOI request (with some parts redacted and some parts withheld).

The Northern Penalty Fares Scheme was approved by DfT on 9 November 2017.
There was to be a three week publicity period and a two-week softly softly approach thereafter.
There will be a rollout to other routes over a period of 24 months. Each amendment to the scheme will require DfT approval.
The person at Northern responsible for design/implementation had to be led by the hand at times on the finer details.
Transport Focus, that fine champion of passenger rights (!) has signed the scheme off.

The actual scheme includes a list of stations and a map (so why can't they publish that to the public as required under the rules!). Passengers alighting from non Northern services at a Penalty Fares station will not be Penalty Fared but will be dealt with under National Rail Conditions of Travel. The scheme includes a list of ticket office opening times and numbers of proposed TVM's at each station: 1 at each except Shipley (2) and Leeds (26 including smart walls and toddlers, whatever they are).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

For clarification the scheme covers Leeds, Bradford, Skipton, Ilkley. All stations are Penalty Fares stations, all Northern trains on the Airedale / Wharfedale lines are Penalty Fares trains.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I travelled from Steeton & Silsden last week. Knowing that the ticket I wanted (a Settle Carlise line day ranger) wasn't available from the TVM, I thought that I'd be wise to get a Promise to Pay ticket. Maybe it was me being stupid but I couldn't find the option to get the machine to give me one. With a queue building up behind me, I gave up after a few minutes. Luckily the guard on the train sold me my ticket without any mention of the PF scheme. I need to go back at a quiet time to play with the TVM, but as there's only one at this station I don't think there are any quiet times.

Northern haven't replied to my question yet as to how long I need to allow to buy a northbound ticket at Cononley so as not to be cut off from my train by the crossing barriers being closed. Sounds like they aren't planning on installing a second TVM on the northbound platform then.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Some nuggets from the approved scheme.

Promise to Pay by cash is a function within our ticket vending machines that will allow our customers who do not have or wish to pay by credit/debit card the opportunity to obtain a notice to allow them to board the train with the intention of exchanging said notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer or at the next available booking office. We will monitor through a back office facility the number issues from each station and exchanged through our On Train Accounting Points.

The ticket facilities at each penalty fares station are sufficient to meet the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement. In cases where adverse queuing times are identified no penalty fare will be issued and the customer will be sold a ticket for the journey they are making.

(Signs) at each entrance to the platforms and on the platforms at interchange stations where they can be seen by any passenger changing onto a penalty fares train.

Our recruitment and selection process is designed to ensure we select only the best candidates for Northern & Carlisle Support Services (our revenue contractor).

 

[lyndhurst25]

After playing with the TVM at Steeton & Silsden, I have finally found out how you get a Promise to Pay ticket, if you want to buy a West Yorkshire Day Rover or Settle Callisle Day Ranger with either cash or a debit card for example:-

Firstly you have to lie to the machine and press the button confirming that you don't have a payment card.

Then you have to select the fare that you are promising to pay: only you can't because the examples above aren't on the machine. Your only option is to pick a random ticket that you don't actually want.

Then you can get a Promise to Pay ticket that doesn't actually say on it what fare you have selected and are promising to pay, or not as the case may be, but warns you that "You must pay this fare in full by cash only or you will incur a Penalty Fare".

What a shambles....

 

[Starmill]

There is a new message on the screen that says you can pay on the train or at your destination if you 'have difficulty' (or something like that) getting a ticket from the machine. I wonder if this counts as an authorisation to travel under Byelaw 18?

I would suggest that a Promise to Pay is not appropriate for a West Yorksire Day Rover purchase with a card as you have to lie to get it - you must press a button that says 'I do not have a payment card'.

 

[Starmill]

I travelled from Steeton & Silsden last week. Knowing that the ticket I wanted (a Settle Carlise line day ranger) wasn't available from the TVM, I thought that I'd be wise to get a Promise to Pay ticket. Maybe it was me being stupid but I couldn't find the option to get the machine to give me one. With a queue building up behind me, I gave up after a few minutes. Luckily the guard on the train sold me my ticket without any mention of the PF scheme. I need to go back at a quiet time to play with the TVM, but as there's only one at this station I don't think there are any quiet times.

Northern haven't replied to my question yet as to how long I need to allow to buy a northbound ticket at Cononley so as not to be cut off from my train by the crossing barriers being closed. Sounds like they aren't planning on installing a second TVM on the northbound platform then.

I can't believe the DfT have signed off on charging Penalty Fares at unstaffed stations used by almost a million passengers a year with one single ticket machine.

I forgot to say I had made a journey on one of the last days of December. Three ladies joined the train at Gusielsey (where I had seen the open ticket office). They were each sold three Off-Peak Day Returns by the guard from Guiseley to Leeds with zero suggestion that they had done something wrong or that they might get a Penalty Fare if they do so again.

The actual scheme includes a list of stations and a map (so why can't they publish that to the public as required under the rules!).

Have they sent you the map? Are you able to link to or publish the other results? No problem if not.

 

[xotGD]

After playing with the TVM at Steeton & Silsden, I have finally found out how you get a Promise to Pay ticket, if you want to buy a West Yorkshire Day Rover or Settle Callisle Day Ranger with either cash or a debit card for example:-

Firstly you have to lie to the machine and press the button confirming that you don't have a payment card.

Then you have to select the fare that you are promising to pay: only you can't because the examples above aren't on the machine. Your only option is to pick a random ticket that you don't actually want.

Then you can get a Promise to Pay ticket that doesn't actually say on it what fare you have selected and are promising to pay, or not as the case may be, but warns you that "You must pay this fare in full by cash only or you will incur a Penalty Fare".

What a shambles....

It says that you got on at Steeton. That is its only purpose. If the guard reaches you after Bingley you can't then get away with saying that you've just got on.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Oh dear, they have secured the document so I cannot post a single page, I'll have to post the whole thing, purely for journalistic purposes as allowed for.

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh dear, they have secured the document so I cannot post a single page, I'll have to post the whole thing, purely for journalistic purposes as allowed for.

Truly such a crying shame!