Northern to introduce 2 extra trains in December

[507 001]

In response to someone's question about refurbishing the 319s Northern have said "they won't be getting a complete overhaul as it's not needed, but they will be refreshed and made to look Northern."

Flat cap and pipe then?

Why does "made to look northern" not exactly inspire confidence??

 

[northwichcat]

So where does this leave us in relation to the Todmorden curve services? This latest missive from the DfT is saying one unit will be available from December - enough for a train every three hours. Or am I missing something?

It will only be a new service between Todmorden and Blackburn.

The services showing terminating here or starts here on this list: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/TOD/2014/05/19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt will become trains to/from Blackburn at the December timetable change.
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Well it seems the Yorkshire side has so many carriages Northern don't know what to do with them:

Apologies, the 17:07 #Leeds to #ManchesterVictoria due 18:32 will be formed of 4 carriages instead of 3

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Northern's announcement about electric trains helpfully shows a 156 running under the wires (at, I think, Eccles).
Exactly matches the prospect for 2015. :cry:
http://www.northernrail.org/news/7449

I wonder why the type of EMU is secret?
There must have been a deal with Porterbrook, or there would be no announcement.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder why the type of EMU is secret?
There must have been a deal with Porterbrook, or there would be no announcement.

Northern have confirmed on their Twitter feed that the 14 x 4 car EMUs they are taking on are class 319s currently used by First Capital Connect. Remember average Joe has no idea what a class 319 is.

 

[WatcherZero]

My thought on the discrepancy, Dft says 12, Northern says 14.

12 in regular service, one on standby and one under maintenence?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anybody who has travelled on a 319 recently will know they are fairly clapped out, a retrim of the seats might be OK for the short term, but for the long term they need major work, and especially if they replace 185's on the Blackpool run I carn't see that going down well in their present condition.

Good to hear from someone with actual knowledge of the conditions currently applying to the Class 319 units. For Northern Rail to claim that only a "refresh" of these units will suffice, it shows that their benchmark standard of the ex-Merseyrail Class 142 units still occupies the closed minds of the Northern Rail management....

 

[Wolfie]

Good to hear from someone with actual knowledge of the conditions currently applying to the Class 319 units. For Northern Rail to claim that only a "refresh" of these units will suffice, it shows that their benchmark standard of the ex-Merseyrail Class 142 units still occupies the closed minds of the Northern Rail management....

A simple question - do you want additional capacity now or later?

If the latter refurbish the first 319s that become available before they enter Northern service or else accept them pretty much as is.

Most 319s have had only "refreshes" internally since they were built. They are truthfully still in (marginally) better shape than most of Northern's stock of a similar vintage. The best you can say in the short-term (ie until a proper refurbishment) is that there will be more capacity and the general stock condition will not be worse than is currently the case.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Flat cap and pipe then?

Why does "made to look northern" not exactly inspire confidence??

Remember the Commonwealth Games that were held in Manchester a few years ago where "a flat cap" appeared to be part of the uniform...

Northern Rail appear to believe that this image is still the prevailing lifestyle in the area of its franchise, where Class 142 Pacers really do accentuate their portrayed rail image.
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Most 319s have had only "refreshes" internally since they were built. They are truthfully still in (marginally) better shape than most of Northern's stock of a similar vintage.

I see that we are in the mathematical area of the lowest common multiple when you use Northern Rail as your benchmark comparison....

 

[thealexweb]

In response to someone's question about refurbishing the 319s Northern have said "they won't be getting a complete overhaul as it's not needed, but they will be refreshed and made to look Northern."

Will they be receiving the air conditioning as planned?

 

[Geeves]

I dont know why the obsession with refurbishment...

They look fine to me??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:319363_TSO_Internal.JPG

Compared with...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:142009_Interior.JPG

As for aircon, when is it ever even hot enough up here to use it?

 

[Starmill]

What state are the toilets in? I've never used one on a 319. Wikipeida says they have 2 each, are they the really small ones as found in most 321s and similar to the 323s? If so, 156s have an accessible toilet (although it may not meet the latest legislative requirements, the trains as a whole certainly don't)... a step back?

 

[387star]

Purple seat covers and existing floor kept without even a deep clean. I think the 319s have a neutral colour floor so they won't look as bad as the 5 x Pacers which have a brown floor and purple seats or the ex-LM 150s with a green floor and purple seats.

Please share pics of the brown floor

319s have flooring similar to 150/2s with FGW I think

 

[Starmill]

Please share pics of the brown floor

319s have flooring similar to 150/2s with FGW I think

Isn't this it?

From this interesting link.

EDIT: OK some issues attaching a link to that actual image. :/ It's the one third up from the bottom showing the facing bay of seats, but you can see it in a few places in that document.

 

[northwichcat]

As for aircon, when is it ever even hot enough up here to use it?

Remember what happened in 2006 when TPE introduced the 185s? We had a heatwave and the fact that the air con was more reliable on the 185s was appreciated by the passengers. In fact due to the unreliable air con on the 158s TPE handed out hundreds of bottles of complimentary water to passengers who had to travel on one of the 158s with unreliable air con when the exterior temperature was 30oC.
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I dont know why the obsession with refurbishment...

They look fine to me??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:319363_TSO_Internal.JPG

Compared with...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:142009_Interior.JPG

As for aircon, when is it ever even hot enough up here to use it?

Although initially the 319s will replace refreshed 156s with 2+2 seating, tables and carpets. Later on they will replace a few Pacers on the Liverpool-Manchester stoppers.

 

[Wavertreelad]

A simple question - do you want additional capacity now or later?

If the latter refurbish the first 319s that become available before they enter Northern service or else accept them pretty much as is.

Most 319s have had only "refreshes" internally since they were built. They are truthfully still in (marginally) better shape than most of Northern's stock of a similar vintage. The best you can say in the short-term (ie until a proper refurbishment) is that there will be more capacity and the general stock condition will not be worse than is currently the case.

And surely the simple answer is, as soon as possible.

The assumption from both press releases must surely be two units running from moment Network rail hand over the electrified line to Northern, which is December 2014 anyway. Only the first three weeks of December will be full working weeks it's probably not going to make that much difference to the travelling public.

As far as refurbishment is concerned, I suspect most passengers will only be too delighted to board a train with a hope of getting a seat, even if the décor is looking a little tired. The other point we must also remember is that Northern only hold the franchise till 2016 so purely from a commercial point of view would Northern be in a position to authorise a refurbishment? Clearly no, so refurbishment can take place once the new franchise is awarded and all the trains transferred can be treated in a rolling process as they are released.

One final point, if the 319's are to be stabled at Allerton, one might wonder if Merseyrail might try and borrow one to test on their network?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I travel on 319's every work day - they are clean , warm and good runners and riders. Some have etched windows (coating often changed) - if people are happy to ride in them for an hour to / from Bedford and Brighton to the Big City - I am sure they will be fine for Liverpool - Manchester.

They have seats and space.

 

[northwichcat]

I travel on 319's every work day - they are clean , warm and good runners and riders. Some have etched windows (coating often changed) - if people are happy to ride in them for an hour to / from Bedford and Brighton to the Big City - I am sure they will be fine for Liverpool - Manchester.

They have seats and space.

What you have to remember is for fast Liverpool-Manchester services Northern offer 156s currently and compete with TPE's 185 services and EMT's refurbished 158s. If passengers think the 319s are inferior they'll try to use the TPE and EMT services instead. I posted on here once before that when I boarded an ex-LM 150/2 deputising for a 156 on a Manchester Airport to Liverpool service one passenger got on at Piccadilly and straight back off declaring he would get the next train instead (the TPE service a few minutes later) and two other passengers sat in front of me were commenting on how bad the seating was.

 

[Starmill]

I travel on 319's every work day - they are clean , warm and good runners and riders. Some have etched windows (coating often changed) - if people are happy to ride in them for an hour to / from Bedford and Brighton to the Big City - I am sure they will be fine for Liverpool - Manchester.

They have seats and space.

Oh well if people are so happy with them, why are they being replaced?

People are not happy with them, they are not good!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh well if people are so happy with them, why are they being replaced?

Because they cannot operate at 24 trains an hour for the end of Thameslink KO2 is actually the reason they are being replaced. So there don't try to be clever.

 

[bramling]

What you have to remember is for fast Liverpool-Manchester services Northern offer 156s currently and compete with TPE's 185 services and EMT's refurbished 158s. If passengers think the 319s are inferior they'll try to use the TPE and EMT services instead. I posted on here once before that when I boarded an ex-LM 150/2 deputising for a 156 on a Manchester Airport to Liverpool service one passenger got on at Piccadilly and straight back off declaring he would get the next train instead (the TPE service a few minutes later) and two other passengers sat in front of me were commenting on how bad the seating was.

I've never understood this obsession with always wanting new or refurbished trains. There will always be rolling stock which is at the beginning of its life-cycle, some which is in the middle, and some which is nearing the end.

Liverpool to Manchester is not a long journey, the design of the 319 is perfectly adequate and acceptable. I realise that some of the trains are in a worn condition, however this is a separate issue, and if the interior was restored to its original condition the ambience would be perfectly acceptable. My local service has class 317s, which are more-or-less in their original 1980s condition (older than 319s), and I find them quite comfortable, providing they are not crush loaded. I don't see or hear passengers complaining about the state of the trains.

The North West has been fortunate in securing investment in electrification - electric trains accelerate faster than diesels, require less maintenance, and are more reliable. Generally it's more cost-effective to run longer formations. Given the choice, I'd prefer the extra length of a class 319, combined with the other benefits of an EMU, over a 185.

I'm coming to conclusion this is a more imagined than real issue, I'm sure the 319s will be well filled when they arrive in the North West.

 

[Starmill]

Because they cannot operate at 24 trains an hour for the end of Thameslink KO2 is actually the reason they are being replaced. So there don't try to be clever.

There aren't enough of them to provide the necessary capacity either, and they don't have much space for luggage or particularly good provision of cyclists/wheelchair users etc. Ya didn't mention them.

My point is that they are being replaced by something that is state of the art and round here they will quite simply more of the same. Mark my words they will deteriorate as they are neglected like the rest of the fleet.

The choice of capacity now or refurbishment is never one that should have been made. The idea of the electrification project was that both would be ready now. And it's a bit of an insult to the rail users of the north to say they should just be happy with a seat!
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I've never understood this obsession with always wanting new or refurbished trains.

Oh, you don't travel by train then...
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I'm coming to conclusion this is a more imagined than real issue, I'm sure the 319s will be well filled when they arrive in the North West.

No it isn't. The original idea of not procuring new stock for the project was that the second-hand trains would be released in good time to give them a refurbishment that would last.

Lumbering one part of the country with more and more of the fleet that needs a lot of work doing on it to make it compliant is also not a good approach!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm coming to conclusion this is a more imagined than real issue, I'm sure the 319s will be well filled when they arrive in the North West.

What else do you think would be the case if these are the replacement units for other units that are sent elsewhere....hock:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Oh, you don't travel by train then...

I travel by train regularly and i am no obsessed either....

 

[northwichcat]

I'm coming to conclusion this is a more imagined than real issue, I'm sure the 319s will be well filled when they arrive in the North West.

I'm sure they will be when they replace busy 4 car 150 services on the Bolton corridor but when replacing 2 car 156s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services where extra luggage space is a higher priority than extra seats is a different matter.

The North West needed 3 car EMUs which could then be doubled up on the busiest services. An order of 3 car 377s or 380s would have been ideal but DfT wanted to find somewhere to off-load the 4 car 319s from Thameslink. Even a cascade of 323s from LM to Northern would have been better.

 

[transmanche]

I dont know why the obsession with refurbishment...

They look fine to me??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:319363_TSO_Internal.JPG

Compared with...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:142009_Interior.JPG

Those photos are quite old though: six years old for the 142 and seven years old for the 319.

 

[Manchester77]

The choice of capacity now or refurbishment is never one that should have been made. The idea of the electrification project was that both would be ready now. And it's a bit of an insult to the rail users of the north to say they should just be happy with a seat!

Lumbering one part of the country with more and more of the fleet that needs a lot of work doing on it to make it compliant is also not a good approach!

You are very correct in stating that however had the government not daudelled with the Thameslink Rolling Stock Program then we would have the refurbished 319s. By the time it was clear the 319s would be delayed it was too late to order new EMUs I'd imagine since by the time the new EMus would arrive the 319s would be free.

I wouldn't say they need lots of work, their interiors are almost the same as the refurbished ashbourne seated 150s (not the ex-LM ones but the ones which retain the ashbournes) as well as many other trains which operate all over the country. Based on what we know of the situation the current plan for any refurbishments to take place under the next franchise is probably best since it ensures that there will be some EMU services between Manchester and Liverpool and that they will be in a correct operators house colours. Under the next franchise one suspects the DfT will include requirements for DDA compliant refurbishments.
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Those photos are quite old though: six years old for the 142 and seven years old for the 319.

The 142 imagine is fairly accurate, the ex-FGW now have northern's stripes moquette however most of the FNW refurbished units have the bus seats with stripes moquette, pale blue floorings and luggage rack at one end. Its nothing major so the image is a fair portrayal of the fleet in my opinion.

Can't comment on the 319s, last time I travelled on one they were operated by NSE!

 

[northwichcat]

Under the next franchise one suspects the DfT will include requirements for DDA compliant refurbishments.

The leasing companies are responsible for making trains properly accessible. What refurbishment work is done alongside that is down to the operator and how long the lease is for. If Northern said to Porterbrook now that they want some bizarre internal layout on the 319s and want an 18 month lease, Porterbrook would probably say no.

 

[transmanche]

The 142 imagine is fairly accurate, the ex-FGW now have northern's stripes moquette however most of the FNW refurbished units have the bus seats with stripes moquette, pale blue floorings and luggage rack at one end. Its nothing major so the image is a fair portrayal of the fleet in my opinion.

Can't comment on the 319s, last time I travelled on one they were operated by NSE!

So a large number of the 142s have been refreshed since 2008? (Certainly the ones in the NE have just been done.) But when were the 319s last refreshed?

 

[Class377/5]

What I final strange is 35x 319s (140 carriages) are set to be released by Thameslink by Dec 2015 with the 6x 319 only seeing 3x 319s initially released due to overhaul requirements. The 387 order of 29 units (116 carriages) are all supposed to be in service by Dec 2015 at the latest.

So with Northern getting 14x 319 (56 carriages) where are the other 21x 319s (84 carriages) going?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

I'm sure they will be when they replace busy 4 car 150 services on the Bolton corridor but when replacing 2 car 156s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services where extra luggage space is a higher priority than extra seats is a different matter.

The North West needed 3 car EMUs which could then be doubled up on the busiest services. An order of 3 car 377s or 380s would have been ideal but DfT wanted to find somewhere to off-load the 4 car 319s from Thameslink. Even a cascade of 323s from LM to Northern would have been better.

A cascade of 323s from LM to Northern would just generate an new order for LM and more moaning on here!. The transfer and REFURBISHMENT of the 319s needs to be managed better.