Northern to introduce 2 extra trains in December

[northwichcat]

More trains will come to the north west following a deal between the Department for Transport and Northern Rail to introduce electric trains on the network.

Two 4-carriage electric trains will start running between Liverpool and Manchester via Newton le Willows from December 2014, providing quicker, cleaner and more reliable journeys for passengers. By the end of 2015 an additional 40 carriages will be in service, providing up to 3,000 extra seats during the busiest times of travel.

Thanks to the introduction of these trains, a diesel train will be freed up to strengthen services to Bolton from December 2014, providing a further 200 places during peak travel. A second train will also be released to run on the newly reopened Todmorden Curve.

Rail Minister Stephen Hammond said:

This is great news for passengers and underlines our commitment to transform rail travel in the north. These electric trains will mean cleaner, quicker and more reliable journeys for thousands more passengers between Manchester and Liverpool, driving forward the economies of these two great cities.

In addition, the deal will provide extra capacity to Bolton and see a passenger train running on the Todmorden Curve for the first time in more than 40 years. I look forward to further improvements as more trains are introduced.

The government is undertaking an ambitious programme of investment in the north with the £400 million North West Electrification Programme and the £600 million Northern Hub scheme. This will improve connections, passenger services and help stimulate the local economy.

Northern Rail is expected to meet improved passenger satisfaction, reliability and punctuality targets as part of a new 22-month franchise announced by the Department last week.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-trains-to-boost-rail-services-in-the-north-west

Disappointing news considering we were told there would be more available and Northern were believed to be in talks to take on 5 x 319s from December 14.

 

[YorkshireBear]

14 units in total, received over 12 months. Three to start with for Dec 2014.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's a question of how may are actually available, last I saw on these forums, there was talk of only three 319s being available 'from May'.

 

[302PS]

Northern just posted on facebook 12 trains

 

[northwichcat]

14 units in total, received over 12 months. Three to start with for Dec 2014.

Don't follow. The DfT story says 2 electric trains in service December this year and 40 additional carriages in service by the end of next year. While that may be 3 additional units in the franchise this December but only 2 ever in passenger service (like with the 180s Northern used to have) the 40 extra carriages bit implies a total of 10 x 319s by the end of next year unless DfT have revised their ways of counting extra capacity (unlikely.)

EDIT: Alternative idea. 14 x 319s = 56 extra carriages. Cascade 8 x 2 car 158s to TPE and that's 40 extra carriages.

 

[swt_passenger]

Should the thread title not really be '...agree a deal for 12 extra trains' though? Staged introduction is always happening.

After all TPE's EMUs came in one at a time over a few months but I don't recall posts about TPE agreeing a deal for 'one extra train'...

I see you've altered the title now anyway, to better reflect what's happening...

 

[302PS]

14 319's

 

[northwichcat]

Should the thread title not really be '...agree a deal for 12 extra trains' though? Staged introduction is always happening.

After all TPE's EMUs came in one at a time over a few months but I don't recall posts about TPE agreeing a deal for 'one extra train'...

I see you've altered the title now anyway, to better reflect what's happening...

Yeah at the time of posting I hadn't seen the Northern Twitter feed saying '14 additional electric trains' which it sounds like YorkshireBear had seen. Northern are also saying they won't lose carriages to other operators despite the discrepancy of 16 carriages.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yeah at the time of posting I hadn't seen the Northern Twitter feed saying '14 additional electric trains' which it sounds like YorkshireBear had seen. Northern are also saying they won't lose carriages to other operators despite the discrepancy of 16 carriages.

That is indeed what i was basing this upon.

 

[Lankyline]

Northern just responded on Twitter saying yes its 14 trains, diesel units to strengthen other Northern routes, didn't say which & pacers are staying ??????

 

[northwichcat]

Northern just responded on Twitter saying yes its 14 trains, diesel units to strengthen other Northern routes, didn't say which & pacers are staying ��

As per the DfT release the two DMUs released initially have had their future use confirmed. Others won't be released until next year so which services to get strengthened probably hasn't been confirmed yet, given TPE are making significant timetable changes in a few weeks time I imagine Northern and the PTEs will want to see the impact of those changes on Northern services before making decisions about which services will get strengthened next year.

 

[swt_passenger]

Northern just responded on Twitter saying yes its 14 trains, diesel units to strengthen other Northern routes, didn't say which & pacers are staying ��

Pacers are almost certainly staying for the foreseeable future. Were you seriously expecting any Pacer retirements before 2020?

 

[northwichcat]

Pacer retirements before 2020?

December 18 may be a possibility for a first batch if North TPE electrification runs to schedule and EMUs are available to run all routes which can switch to EMUs.

 

[swt_passenger]

December 18 may be a possibility for a first batch if North TPE electrification runs to schedule and EMUs are available to run all routes which can switch to EMUs.

Fair point. This or even next year's end is still a lot to hope for though...

 

[northwichcat]

In response to someone's question about refurbishing the 319s Northern have said "they won't be getting a complete overhaul as it's not needed, but they will be refreshed and made to look Northern."

 

[47802]

One might ask the question why its going to take a year to get these electric trains into service when if the 387 introduction run's reasonably to time there should be loads of 319's spare by may next year. and considering they intend to do naff all to them refurbishment wise, ok the staff will need to be trained but is it going to take that long?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In response to someone's question about refurbishing the 319s Northern have said "they won't be getting a complete overhaul as it's not needed, but they will be refreshed and made to look Northern."

So in other words it will be a downgrade then

 

[northwichcat]

So in other words it will be a downgrade then

Purple seat covers and existing floor kept without even a deep clean. I think the 319s have a neutral colour floor so they won't look as bad as the 5 x Pacers which have a brown floor and purple seats or the ex-LM 150s with a green floor and purple seats.

 

[YorkshireBear]

One might ask the question why its going to take a year to get these electric trains into service when if the 387 introduction run's reasonably to time there should be loads of 319's spare by may next year. and considering they intend to do naff all to them refurbishment wise, ok the staff will need to be trained but is it going to take that long?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So in other words it will be a downgrade then

And one will get the answer. Because they will get them in dribs and drabs. The 387s will need bedding in firstly. And by saying the end of 2015 they give themselves lots of wiggle room if the 387 is late, which it may be who knows. They have said by the end of 2015 not at the end of 2015.

 

[Starmill]

IF history tells us what happens to rolling stock when Northern get hold of it... oh my god.

This is great news for passengers

No. No it isn't. Shut up.

 

[sprinterguy]

No. No it isn't. Shut up.

It is perhaps indicative of the state of local rail travel in the North that the addition of fully two second hand trains is being heralded as a “commitment to transform rail travel in the North”.

I suppose, at its’ most optimistic, that two additional trains can be considered better news than none at all…

 

[northwichcat]

No. No it isn't. Shut up.

That statement is from the same government minister who admitted passengers on overcrowded services on lines not set to be electrified are having to suffer for longer due to the DfT's current policy of electrification programs and no new DMU orders.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is perhaps indicative of the state of local rail travel in the North that the addition of fully two second hand trains is being heralded as a “commitment to transform rail travel in the North”.

I suppose, at its’ most optimistic, that two additional trains can be considered better news than none at all…

Given the last government promised enough 319s for Northern to run all Chat Moss local services released from Thameslink by May 2013, which would be fully refurbished to include new interiors with 2+2 seating, tables, air conditioning and accessible toilets, I think we can be disappointed with the current situation.

 

[47802]

That statement is from the same government minister who admitted passengers on overcrowded services on lines not set to be electrified are having to suffer for longer due to the DfT's current policy of electrification programs and no new DMU orders.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Given the last government promised enough 319s for Northern to run all Chat Moss local services released from Thameslink by May 2013, which would be fully refurbished to include new interiors with 2+2 seating, tables, air conditioning and accessible toilets, I think we can be disappointed with the current situation.

Anybody who has travelled on a 319 recently will know they are fairly clapped out, a retrim of the seats might be OK for the short term, but for the long term they need major work, and especially if they replace 185's on the Blackpool run I carn't see that going down well in their present condition.

 

[northwichcat]

Anybody who has travelled on a 319 recently will know they are fairly clapped out, a retrim of the seats might be OK for the short term, but for the long term they need major work, and especially if they replace 185's on the Blackpool run I carn't see that going down well in their present condition.

Nothing's been confirmed for the Blackpool-Manchester Airport route at the moment or the long term future of the other TPE North West routes.

Oh and can't doesn't have a 'r' in it unless you believe an over-rated over-tanned thick b**** I used to work with who couldn't spell anything.

 

[fgwrich]

In response to someone's question about refurbishing the 319s Northern have said "they won't be getting a complete overhaul as it's not needed, but they will be refreshed and made to look Northern."

Made to look Northern, so no proper cleaning regime for at least a month then?

It'll be interesting to see how they define 'Look Northern' given that it seems the first 319s earmarked for a Northern move are the ones refurbished by Capital Connect - So will have First coloured walls, First coloured treadmaster (floor lino!), First Group moquette and er, externally wrapped in FCC vinyl.

 

[Starmill]

Made to look Northern, so no proper cleaning regime for at least a month then?

It'll be interesting to see how they define 'Look Northern' given that it seems the first 319s earmarked for a Northern move are the ones refurbished by Capital Connect - So will have First coloured walls, First coloured treadmaster (floor lino!), First Group moquette and er, externally wrapped in FCC vinyl.

It could go a bit like the 322s from SR? I don't know what livery they wore in Scotland but now they are in non-standard all-blue livery?

 

[northwichcat]

Made to look Northern, so no proper cleaning regime for at least a month then?

It'll be interesting to see how they define 'Look Northern' given that it seems the first 319s earmarked for a Northern move are the ones refurbished by Capital Connect - So will have First coloured walls, First coloured treadmaster (floor lino!), First Group moquette and er, externally wrapped in FCC vinyl.

I was on one of the 5 ex-FNW 142s that didn't get the full refresh under FNW and has since been subleased to FGW the other week. That had a brown floor, purple seat covers, blue panels under the windows internally, pink door control panels and some pink grab handles (others yellow) with externally a smart painted blue and purple livery.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It could go a bit like the 322s from SR? I don't know what livery they wore in Scotland but now they are in non-standard all-blue livery?

Dark blue base paint with a First Group Barbie vinyl applied over the top.

 

[Lankyline]

Pacers are almost certainly staying for the foreseeable future. Were you seriously expecting any Pacer retirements before 2020?

One lives in hope !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Made to look Northern, so no proper cleaning regime for at least a month then?

It'll be interesting to see how they define 'Look Northern' given that it seems the first 319s earmarked for a Northern move are the ones refurbished by Capital Connect - So will have First coloured walls, First coloured treadmaster (floor lino!), First Group moquette and er, externally wrapped in FCC vinyl.

They'll have a flat cap on the front and a whippet on the side, spittoons fitted as standard

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Two trains is not enough to fully convert any one service, so I suppose they will be on DMU timings and just infiltrated as and when.
Do we have any clear idea of when the next lot of EMUs will arrive?

Rail also seems to think that Blackpool will now not be before Dec 2016 because of remodelling work, so essentially the December 2014 Liverpool wires will be the last to go live for two years.

 

[Darren R]

So where does this leave us in relation to the Todmorden curve services? This latest missive from the DfT is saying one unit will be available from December - enough for a train every three hours. Or am I missing something?

 

[northwichcat]

Do we have any clear idea of when the next lot of EMUs will arrive?

If it's the same as previous extra capacity Northern have got they won't appear in service mid-timetable, so the next lot of EMUs will appear in service in May 2015* and the final set (for this franchise) in December 2015.

* With the exception of if Northern have to give up units to another operator in time for the new operator to have the cascaded units for the May 2015 timetable change.