Northern Station Improvements & New Ticket Machines

[johntea]

It’s one of these at Woodlesford - card only (apologies for the poor quality image)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

...
Are you really claiming that the measured level of takeup is wrong based on one person's anecdotal evidence based on a single flow? What sample size does that represent and what evidence do you have that its representative? Sorry but it would be hard to think of an better example of an unrepresentative sample based on an inadequate sample size, virtually guaranteed to give wildly inaccurate results.

I'm not trying to claim that the figures are wildly wrong, nor that my own observations are somehow better- that would be absurd! My issue is really that as there's no way of measuring exits and entries at Batley or Mirfield, it is impossible for the figures to be 100% accurate. If those figures are then used to justify changes to services, those making the decisions should tread carefully.
Ideally all stations would be barriered and therefore fare evasion would fall significantly. That's never going to happen of course, though.

Use of MCards could be a source of useful data, if only it were gathered and recorded accurately. For example, on buses the system will log where my card was used to board a bus but there'll be no log of where I travel to. Do Metro or the operator assume I've travelled the whole route? Then there's the revenue: how is my £106 each month distributed between Metro themselves, Northern (used their machine), and the bus and train operators I actually travel with?

 

[northwichcat]

Ideally all stations would be barriered and therefore fare evasion would fall significantly. That's never going to happen of course, though.

That's fine on lines with a frequent service in a suburban area but having barriers at stations like Pontefract Baghill is a non-starter. You'd have to provide staff at the limited times trains actually operate (otherwise they'll be a risk of the barriers failing and passengers being locked in the station) and then if a staff member is provided it'd be more cost-effective to have them doing a manual check.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's fine on lines with a frequent service in a suburban area but having barriers at stations like Pontefract Baghill is a non-starter. You'd have to provide staff at the limited times trains actually operate (otherwise they'll be a risk of the barriers failing and passengers being locked in the station) and then if a staff member is provided it'd be more cost-effective to have them doing a manual check.

I agree it isn't practical- just that it would be the best solution in an ideal world... though actually in "an ideal world" the concept of money wouldn't exist and therefore there'd be no such thing as fare evasion!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Then its probably not a good tine to point out that work has also started in Baildon to install a TVM.....

Out of interest is any other work ongoing there? I seem to recall Baildon and Ben Rhydding are the first two stations to get the extra staff Northern promised, from this December, and I'm curios as to what form that'll take...

 

[lejog]

I'm not trying to claim that the figures are wildly wrong, nor that my own observations are somehow better- that would be absurd! My issue is really that as there's no way of measuring exits and entries at Batley or Mirfield, it is impossible for the figures to be 100% accurate. If those figures are then used to justify changes to services, those making the decisions should tread carefully.
Ideally all stations would be barriered and therefore fare evasion would fall significantly. That's never going to happen of course, though.

Use of MCards could be a source of useful data, if only it were gathered and recorded accurately. For example, on buses the system will log where my card was used to board a bus but there'll be no log of where I travel to. Do Metro or the operator assume I've travelled the whole route? Then there's the revenue: how is my £106 each month distributed between Metro themselves, Northern (used their machine), and the bus and train operators I actually travel with?

It's generally far too expensive and often impossible to collect 100% accurate data (look at recounts in elections). All that is necessary is to define in advance how accurate the data needs to be, then aim to take a sample size which provides that accuracy. While you won't see these in publicly quoted figures, you'll get 95% confidence limits, so you get a spread of values and know the quality of data on which you are basing decisions. Sorry, but the idea that each individual journey has to be recorded is also absurd.

Your concern for the TOCs and bus companies is touching, but I haven't heard them complaining. If you are worried about the settlement process for mcards, I suggest you don't even think about the electricity industry, where generated power is priced at 30min intervals with large variations in price across the day, but your meter reading rolls in 6months to a year later and just provides a single total consumption figure.

 

[northwichcat]

It seems the new machines have an assistance button (I'm not sure if that's the video assistance mentioned in the franchise agreement) but don't give the option to buy a ticket from another station (unlike some other operator's TVMs.) I should have checked if they can sell through tickets to Metrolink stops but didn't think to check that.

 

[mrbluelips]

Does anyone know what is happening at New Mills Newtown. The station office has been boarded up for months, with a sign saying 'we're working hard to improve the station.' How hard exactly?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The service is being improved. They'll get a morning peak departure for Manchester from next May which will arrive in Manchester pre-9am and an evening peak departure from Manchester post-5pm. Although, they'll be no service between the morning and evening peaks.

And I imagine the service will be reduced from 4 tpd to 2 tpd between Ellesmere Port & Helsby.

 

[northwichcat]

Someone at TfGM needs a glass of water thrown at them. They've decided to drop installing CCTV at Navigation Road, Appleby Bridge and Glazebrook stations as part of one scheme, but as part of another scheme they are installing a CCTV camera at Ardwick station so that the TVM being installed there can be watched!

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...2457/item_5_rail_infrastructure_update_report

 

[BurtonM]

Who in their right mind thought Ardwick needs a TVM?
Might as well be a PERTIS push button machine for all it'd get used.
Where are they going to put it?

 

[coxxy]

I think they need more than a glass of water throwing at them for that... I would suggest the very TVM they are putting at Ardwick..

How many services do they have calling at Ardwick per day? Is it still 2 in each direction? Not to mention the shocking footfall!

 

[Starmill]

0734 and 0823 to Manchester Piccadilly
1647 and 1808 to Rose Hill Marple via Hyde Central

 

[coxxy]

Cheers for that Starmill. Didn't think there were any more than that. Quite how they have justified spending the money for a TVM for Ardwick is beyond me...

 

[Starmill]

Well, Doleham only has 3 trains each way per day and it has a TVM now too.

 

[coxxy]

Not saying they shouldnt be putting the TVM's there but surely makes sense to put them on stations with a higher footfall and bigger service first.

 

[skyhigh]

Meanwhile the machine at Headingley has a dead spot on the screen over most of where the 'pay now' button goes, making it a little frustrating!

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Does anyone know anything further about the plans to start staffing stations from next year? I’m guessing this will just consist of a member of staff working as security providing general assistance or will they be undertaking retail duties as well?

 

[johntea]

Shipley P1 now has one of the fancy large screen TVMs (out of service albeit!), looks like Northern got quite a few of those off the back of a lorry

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Say what you will about the Northern TVMs, they're far more user-friendly (and with a more accurate touch-screen) than TPE's machines at Huddersfield. Fair enough, those do at least take cash though!

 

[185143]

A TVM at ARDWICK??

They'll put one at Denton next... absolute madness! I thought I'd seen everything from these tram obsessed clowns-but clearly not!

 

[Gathursty]

Forum meet suggestion to use the TVM at Ardwick?

 

[Bletchleyite]

TVM at *Ardwick*?!

Why don't they just bite the bullet and close it? Barely anyone ever uses it and it has a joke of a service. If it doesn't justify all the Hadfields calling it doesn't justify existing, and the footbridge looks like it's about to rust away to nothing.

Or is it being kept open in anticipation of planned "regeneration" developments of posh flats?

Having said all that, I suppose it could be to stop people on peak workings stopping there from saying "I got on at Ardwick, mate" and getting away with not paying. IOW, there being no intention of anyone ever actually buying a ticket there.

 

[185143]

TVM at *Ardwick*?!

Why don't they just bite the bullet and close it? Barely anyone ever uses it and it has a joke of a service. If it doesn't justify all the Hadfields calling it doesn't justify existing, and the footbridge looks like it's about to rust away to nothing.

Or is it being kept open in anticipation of planned "regeneration" developments of posh flats?

Having said all that, I suppose it could be to stop people on peak workings stopping there from saying "I got on at Ardwick, mate" and getting away with not paying. IOW, there being no intention of anyone ever actually buying a ticket there.

Until said person pulls a fiver out...

 

[northwichcat]

A TVM at ARDWICK??

They'll put one at Denton next... absolute madness! I thought I'd seen everything from these tram obsessed clowns-but clearly not!

They are going to put one at Denton - as well as Reddish South and Manchester United!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's different to the screens at neighbouring Northern stations- uses white LEDs rather than orange.

I give those a year at most. White LEDs seem to last very poorly.

My favourite current PIS is the LCD TV based variety used by Thameslink.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are going to put one at Denton - as well as Reddish South and Manchester United!

I presume this relates to the planned PF scheme? Still seems silly not to make the Flying Dentonian a Paytrain, though.

 

[185143]

They are going to put one at Denton - as well as Reddish South and Manchester United!

Manchester United seems the most ridiculous of them all...

Can't believe that many people just make a single journey back into Manchester!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester United seems the most ridiculous of them all...

Can't believe that many people just make a single journey back into Manchester!

I bet a lot do, as they know they will get away with doing so for nowt as the trains are too crowded to sell tickets. A few 80 quid specials will soon stop that.

 

[northwichcat]

I bet a lot do, as they know they will get away with doing so for nowt as the trains are too crowded to sell tickets. A few 80 quid specials will soon stop that.

You're unlikely to be able to get on a stadium bound train without a ticket, unless you arrive in Manchester on another train and only have a ticket to Manchester STNs/CTLZ. Deansgate will have manual checks on match days, while Oxford Rd is barriered and Piccadilly will have manual checks on the non-barriered platforms.