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Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

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When the Government privatised the separate franchises in 1996-97, there were minimum service requirements written in. Post Covid are we now at that point with some of the service levels described in the previous posts? Do these requirements no longer apply, now the Northern franchise has been taken over? Or were they quietly dropped years ago?
 
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Watershed

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When the Government privatised the separate franchises in 1996-97, there were minimum service requirements written in. Post Covid are we now at that point with some of the service levels described in the previous posts? Do these requirements no longer apply, now the Northern franchise has been taken over? Or were they quietly dropped years ago?
Whilst there is still a Train Service Requirement or similar for most agreements (you can't really even call them franchises anymore), the idea is that it protects the government and the public against an operator withdrawing services to save money. It depends on enforcement from the DfT in effect.

With the DfT now being the party who are, in many cases, causing these service cutbacks - e.g. by refusing to allow TOCs to enter RDW agreements on terms that will be acceptable to the unions - they can hardly object when the TOCs tell them there are parts of the TSR they can't run. In fact in some cases it's even more direct than that, with the DfT telling operators to save X% of costs.

Because the 'obligations' of the agremeents can only be enforced by the DfT, but they're only interested in saving money, they are basically worthless.
 

Peterthegreat

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Whilst there is still a Train Service Requirement or similar for most agreements (you can't really even call them franchises anymore), the idea is that it protects the government and the public against an operator withdrawing services to save money. It depends on enforcement from the DfT in effect.

With the DfT now being the party who are, in many cases, causing these service cutbacks - e.g. by refusing to allow TOCs to enter RDW agreements on terms that will be acceptable to the unions - they can hardly object when the TOCs tell them there are parts of the TSR they can't run. In fact in some cases it's even more direct than that, with the DfT telling operators to save X% of costs.

Because the 'obligations' of the agremeents can only be enforced by the DfT, but they're only interested in saving money, they are basically worthless.
But Northern is run by the Government. It is Schapps who should be shouldering the blame.
 

geoffk

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But Northern is run by the Government. It is Schapps who should be shouldering the blame.
Doesn't this make a mockery of the "reversing Beeching" programme? We've had Okehampton and the Blyth & Tyne project seems to be going ahead, but that could be your lot.
 

Watershed

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But Northern is run by the Government. It is Schapps who should be shouldering the blame.
Indeed he should - but being able to deflect the blame onto operators is, I imagine, one of the primary reasons why the model of keeping operations outsourced has been baked into GBR.
 

northernchris

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Northern have tweeted on occasions this morning that the current service levels will remain until December. I seriously hope that this is not true.

Technically it isn't true, in May they are making further cuts to some routes. Last summer there were some heavily overloaded Northern services, looks like this year will be worse!
 

Peterthegreat

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Technically it isn't true, in May they are making further cuts to some routes. Last summer there were some heavily overloaded Northern services, looks like this year will be worse!
I don't know how accurate RTT currently is for the May TT but Hull to Bridlington is increased to two trains per hour whilst the Whitby line is reduced to 4 trains per direction.
 

northernchris

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I don't know how accurate RTT currently is for the May TT but Hull to Bridlington is increased to two trains per hour whilst the Whitby line is reduced to 4 trains per direction.

Ah, that may explain why Hull - Halifax has been reduced to 2 hourly. You'd think Whitby would be a route which would justify it's usual timetable in the summer though
 

Peterthegreat

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Ah, that may explain why Hull - Halifax has been reduced to 2 hourly. You'd think Whitby would be a route which would justify it's usual timetable in the summer though
I think it does. However if Northern have a GENUINE crew shortage in the North East it may be better to employ the resources elsewhere eg to maintain an hourly Middlesbrough to Newcastle service.
 

Southern Beau

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As I mentioned earlier on, the Sunday service from Preston to Blackpool south is increasing to an hourly service (currently every 2 hours) from May 15
 

Iskra

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From today's Sheffield Star
The article fails to pick up on the point that not only is it a reduced timetable, but then it is further watered down by cancellations. It's a double whammy. I wouldn't mind a reduced timetable, if they actually stuck to it, you could plan and make your journey then around it.

Surely, the point of a reduced timetable is to reduce it to a point where it can be run in a resilient manner? Or is this just a stealthy way of making much bigger cuts and spreading it around so less people take umbrage?
 

Kite159

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Ah, that may explain why Hull - Halifax has been reduced to 2 hourly. You'd think Whitby would be a route which would justify it's usual timetable in the summer though

All it does is push those potential passengers onto using the buses. Especially if they experience a rammed 156 going one-way.

Bus companies in South Yorkshire must be enjoying the extra passengers they are getting from displaced rail passengers.
 

30907

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You'd think Whitby would be a route which would justify it's usual timetable in the summer though.
It effectively has! The cancelled train is the 0630 commuter train from Whitby. I predict Alan Williams and the Community Rail Partnership will be annoyed - I wonder how many people actually use it, certainly not day-trippers?
The 2223 has replacement buses, one of which is non stop and therefore half an hour faster than a train. The all-stations one is a good 40min slower than the train.
 
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Peterthegreat

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The article fails to pick up on the point that not only is it a reduced timetable, but then it is further watered down by cancellations. It's a double whammy. I wouldn't mind a reduced timetable, if they actually stuck to it, you could plan and make your journey then around it.

Surely, the point of a reduced timetable is to reduce it to a point where it can be run in a resilient manner? Or is this just a stealthy way of making much bigger cuts and spreading it around so less people take umbrage?
Absolutely agree. I am in contact with Dan Jarvis (and John Healey my MP) over this. Northern say the commuter numbers are down. Well what do they expect when the service is slashed by 2/3rds, the peak commuter trains are withdrawn and there are still cancellations. Northern have done absolutely nothing to mitigate any of the issues caused. There are better ways to allocate the resources to increase the number of trains operating and/or reduce costs. Initially of course this was only for a couple of weeks "so it wasn't possible to do anything in the timescales" now it will be a year. I'm sorry but Northern (or whoever is pulling the strings) are wrecking rail travel in South Yorkshire.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

All it does is push those potential passengers onto using the buses. Especially if they experience a rammed 156 going one-way.

Bus companies in South Yorkshire must be enjoying the extra passengers they are getting from displaced rail passengers.
Well they may be on certain routes. However try getting from Mexborough to Meadowhall or Sheffield by bus (no direct services) Or from Swinton to Doncaster (train 15 minutes, bus 70).
 

tbtc

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But Northern is run by the Government. It is Schapps who should be shouldering the blame.

True - there'd be outrage if private companies were cutting corners the way that Northern have been doing over the past couple of years - they are untouchable though - no franchise commitments to worry about honouring, nobody is going to fine them - this is what we are stuck with - who'd have guessed that the Government that has mismanaged so many other public services over the past decade would make such a mess of running trains too?

Doesn't this make a mockery of the "reversing Beeching" programme? We've had Okehampton and the Blyth & Tyne project seems to be going ahead, but that could be your lot.

Completely - but I guess that the Government are hoping that the target audience for the "reversing Beeching" stories were the Shire Tories/ Pensioners who don't travel by train regularly and can be distracted by occasional headlines about how Shapps wants to "bring back the good old days" (and forget that he promised the same six months ago, and six months before that, and all we've seen is progress on two minor projects that would likely have happened anyway), whilst the poor people stuck at stations like Conisbrough (trying to work out whether Northern are planning to run the same timetable as yesterday or if it's been chopped/changed again) is just collateral damage

I'm sure Shapps will be back in TV studios soon with warm words about how he wants to "reverse Beeching", and the people who buy into the John Betjeman/ Old Maids Cycling To Communion/ Modern Life Is Rubbish stuff won't have a clue how bad *actual* rail travel now is on provincial lines

The "reverse Beeching" stuff always felt like "A Railway Story For People Who Don't Regularly Use Railways" - it wouldn't be how the railway would prioritise spending but it played well with the kind of nostalgic people who vote Conservative/ UKIP etc

The article fails to pick up on the point that not only is it a reduced timetable, but then it is further watered down by cancellations. It's a double whammy. I wouldn't mind a reduced timetable, if they actually stuck to it, you could plan and make your journey then around it.

Surely, the point of a reduced timetable is to reduce it to a point where it can be run in a resilient manner? Or is this just a stealthy way of making much bigger cuts and spreading it around so less people take umbrage?

Good points - if they said that they could only run half of the "Arriva" timetable, but at least ran 100% of that 50% then that'd be something that people could base their travel around - but the constant changes and short notice cancellations creates a lack of certainty - so that I wouldn't risk a ninety minute gap if I were doing a local journey in South Yorkshire - it's not worth it

The bus service from Sheffield to Doncaster (X78) used to be every ten minutes - it's been cut back to every twenty minutes but at least First seem to be delivering that timetable - it's not great but I'd rather based my journeys around a reliable twenty minute service than head out expecting a bus every ten/fifteen minutes and then find multiple journeys cancelled - it only takes a couple of bad experiences like this for people to give up on public transport - "once bitten, twice shy" etc

I suppose they are scared to say "this irregular line will be abandoned for the next six months, because we don't have enough staff/stock" and would rather give the impression that they are trying to run everything (even thought why clearly can't)
 

northernchris

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All it does is push those potential passengers onto using the buses. Especially if they experience a rammed 156 going one-way.

Indeed, an infrequent, overcrowded train is not going to encourage or even retain passengers. If there's a chance the train will be too overcrowded to board passengers will soon find other ways to travel

Absolutely agree. I am in contact with Dan Jarvis (and John Healey my MP) over this. Northern say the commuter numbers are down. Well what do they expect when the service is slashed by 2/3rds, the peak commuter trains are withdrawn and there are still cancellations. Northern have done absolutely nothing to mitigate any of the issues caused. There are better ways to allocate the resources to increase the number of trains operating and/or reduce costs.

Absolutely, if the timetable isn't suitable for passengers, or is too unreliable then do Northern really expect to be carrying close to pre-Covid numbers. The fact they still haven't acknowledged their performance has been unacceptable the past few weeks though really makes me think the management believe they are doing a good job, and until this culture within Northern changes I doubt the service being delivered will improve

True - there'd be outrage if private companies were cutting corners the way that Northern have been doing over the past couple of years - they are untouchable though - no franchise commitments to worry about honouring, nobody is going to fine them - this is what we are stuck with - who'd have guessed that the Government that has mismanaged so many other public services over the past decade would make such a mess of running trains too?


Good points - if they said that they could only run half of the "Arriva" timetable, but at least ran 100% of that 50% then that'd be something that people could base their travel around - but the constant changes and short notice cancellations creates a lack of certainty - so that I wouldn't risk a ninety minute gap if I were doing a local journey in South Yorkshire - it's not worth it

It is somewhat ironic some believed that nationalising Northern would cure its problems when in reality I can't remember the service across Yorkshire being this poor since the Arriva Trains Northern era of the early 2000s.

It's clear Northern don't have enough available crew (although it does make you wonder what the attrition rate is given they seem to be in a worse position now than 12 months ago!) and a reliable hourly 4 car service is better than a haphazard 2 car 30 minute frequency, so I do support thinning out the service. But in reality there's still many diagrams shortformed each day, dozens of on the day cancellations, multiple instances of last services being cancelled with no replacement bus provided and delay repay being denied because either the service was pre-cancelled the night before so doesn't exist on their systems, or they hide behind the fact that PTE tickets are exempt, which a lot of their passengers use. It's almost as if the brief they've been given from the DfT is to reduce passenger numbers permanently.....
 

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It gets worse for South (and West) Yorkshire. Apparently 3 return services on the Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe route will be axed in May.
 

johntea

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Something that annoys me about these cuts is there can also be an impact on ticketing

Now I can either catch a peak service in the morning and pay the price...but the 09:30ish service has vanished never to be seen again presumably so the earliest off peak service is 10:00!

I also read they're axing the 18:47 and 21:44 services from Harrogate to Leeds which is absolutely bonkers, luckily my workplace is flexible (and I only have to go in infrequently these days), others won't be so lucky...

(On a positive note I'm building up quite a nice stash of complimentary tickets at the moment to use on the rare services that will still exist in the future due to all these no and very little notice cancellations!)
 

TUC

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Northern also continue to show themselves to be clueless commercially. Some of the servicess reduced to 2 hourly form part of co-ordinated timetables with other services between intermediate stations. Part of attracting people to use the railway is for them to know that services between A and B run at 08, 28 and 48 every hour. What use is it for that to be the case on alternative hours, but in the other hours the service is at 08 and 48 only, and have to remember which set of hours are which?

Northern, no matter who runs the franchise, have shown themselves decade after decade to be bad at the basics of running a business.
 
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Peterthegreat

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Northern also continue to show themselves to be clueless commercially. Some of the servicess reduced to 2 hourly form part of co-ordinated timetables with other services between intermediate stations. Part of attracting people to use the railway is for them to know that services between A and B run at 08, 28 and 48 every hour. What use is it for that to be the case on alternative hours, but in the other hours the service is at 08 and 48 only, and have to remember which set of hours are which?

Northern, no matter who runs the franchise, has shown themselves decade after decade to be bad at the basics of running a business.
Absolutely.
 

175001

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The Hope Valley gets its missing trains back in the afternoon, but the hourly New Mills terminator goes down to every 2 hours in the afternoon to compensate.
 

tbtc

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It is somewhat ironic some believed that nationalising Northern would cure its problems when in reality I can't remember the service across Yorkshire being this poor since the Arriva Trains Northern era of the early 2000s.

It's clear Northern don't have enough available crew (although it does make you wonder what the attrition rate is given they seem to be in a worse position now than 12 months ago!)

Agreed

I'm not expecting every pre-Covid service to still be running (passenger numbers haven't come back to that level) but they can't even run the reduced services that are on the "temporary" timetables - we keep seeing the goalposts shifted (Serco/ Arriva used to be fined for not meeting timetables, but the new Northern seem quite casual when it comes to "commitments") - and they aren't exactly great at giving us good expectations of what services will be like in future

I know there's a lot of buzz about how "leisure" passengers are going to be the saviours of the railway in future, but there are still people relying on trains to get them to work, and those regular reliable farepayers are being terribly treated

Lots of people were quick to criticise Serco/Arriva - enthusiasts/ politicians/ Unions etc - but there's a lot of silence about the current version of Northern - I guess people don't want to admit that the much desired public controlled railway is failing - if they haven't improved things in the first two years then when are they going to?

It gets worse for South (and West) Yorkshire. Apparently 3 return services on the Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe route will be axed in May.

Gosh, things get even bleaker

Maybe now that it's affecting Leeds passengers, there'll be someone important who takes notice - it's clearly been fine for them to cut services like Sheffield to Doncaster or Wakefield to Huddersfield - maybe the prospect of South Yorkshire services into Leeds missing will be the point at which the managers start to pay attention?
 

northernchris

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It gets worse for South (and West) Yorkshire. Apparently 3 return services on the Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe route will be axed in May.

Having checked RTT it's the 0948, 1248 and 1548 from Leeds, and the 0815, 1115 and 1415 from Sheffield which are withdrawn. At least the peak services are protected, although I have little confidence Northern will be able to deliver the May timetable reliably and with enough capacity
 

Peterthegreat

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Having checked RTT it's the 0948, 1248 and 1548 from Leeds, and the 0815, 1115 and 1415 from Sheffield which are withdrawn. At least the peak services are protected, although I have little confidence Northern will be able to deliver the May timetable reliably and with enough capacity
Yes those are the trains. 6 days a week.
 
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