• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

Status
Not open for further replies.

chiltern trev

Member
Joined
28 Mar 2011
Messages
514
Location
near Carlisle
It was the unit working the 1045 Airport to Piccadilly. The reason given on RTT was a problem with the doors, but this appears unlikely given that it seems to have taken well over an hour to get it out of the way.

The 1055 Airport to Cleethorpes TPE was delayed by 70 minutes, and terminated at Piccadilly. Don't know why - it seemed to reappear at Sheffield!
The 1100 Airport to Glasgow TPE was delayed by 68 minutes and terminated at Preston. Here again, the reason for that isn't obvious.
The 1035 Crewe to Piccadilly via Airport (should have been 1116 ex-Airport) departed 1121, returned (in service) to Wilmslow, then operated to Piccadilly via Stockport.
The 1129 Airport to Blackpool was delayed by 46 minutes.
The 1140 Airport to Liverpool (electric) was delayed by 38 minutes.
Other services were cancelled Picc-Airport-Picc, and a few TPE services seem to have been cancelled due to problems elsewhere.
After the disruption, the first ex-Airport service to operate to time seems to have been the 1235 ATW Airport to Llandudno.

The 1140 ex-Airport was 56 minutes late into Lime Street, and the 1316 Lime Street to Airport, and 1440 return were cancelled, presumably as a consequence. The reason for the cancellations was given as a problem with the Traction Equipment, but this may have been a reference to the failure of the 1045 Airport to Picc, which was the original source of the delay.

A later failure involved the 1740 Airport to Liverpool, which was terminated at Lea Green due to a 'problem with the train'. The following 1802 ex-Victoria was delayed by 41 minutes (37 minutes setting off back from Lime Street to Victoria), and the ex-Newcastle TPE by 28 minutes.

So that was two significant failures in a day. It may be that the 319s are still getting into as much trouble as they have in the recent past, but these failures will often go unnoticed unless we are somehow caught up in the aftermath.



According to RTT two units are stabled at Lime Street overnight, every night of the week except Saturday. This isn't a new thing, either in principle or quantity, it's existed for a while, and certainly predates the latest changes. I believe one or two diesel units may also stable at Lime Street overnight.

The 319s which stable don't do so for the purpose of standby, since they constitute the final two 319 arrivals of the day (M/F ex Preston and Manchester Victoria, Sun both ex-Manchester Airport - of course), and the next morning they form the first and third 319 departures of the day (0516 Manchester Airport and 0532 Wigan North Western).



Looks like a bit of a disaster if you were going to Manchester Airport for a particular flight! And not very encouraging.

We plan to fly from Manchester Airport in a few months time and our preference is to travel by rail from Carlisle. I have already ruled out going for the cheap TPE only tickets due to TPE Manchester<>Scotland unreliability as there are too any occasions where something has gone wrong with the TPE service and you have to wait for a later TPE service which means an hour wait. And now 319s upsetting the service - perhaps car via M6 will be the answer.

When working in London, I do not recall anywhere near this level of time delays due to failed units - but then, I suppose, on the Thameslink service with a very frequent service and lots of units it is easy to 'hide' the defective ones, take them out of service and out of the way which would leave a short formed service which would still run. And if a service was missing then just a short wait for the next. Or maybe if a unit was defective in service maybe it would be detrained promptly so as to provide least disruption and the passengers transferred onto the shortly following next service.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
13,160
Whatever the 321s and 322s, and 323s now do, plus the Windermere and Blackpool Northern Connect services.

Six-car 331s (doubled up) will replace the four-car Class 333s on the busiest West Yorkshire services, which in turn will be used on the Doncaster-Leeds line to replace the currently eight-strong 321/322 fleet.
 

8A Rail

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2012
Messages
1,351
Location
Mars
I had noted at Allerton Depot this afternoon (15.15hrs), there were at least 4 Class 319's (out of 20) on shed including one in the Wheel Lathe House. This would suggest, if my information is correct, one/two turns today are therefore DMU in lieu of Class 319?
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,856
Location
west yorkshire
Six-car 331s (doubled up) will replace the four-car Class 333s on the busiest West Yorkshire services, which in turn will be used on the Doncaster-Leeds line to replace the currently eight-strong 321/322 fleet.

I believe quite a number of platforms including the 2 new aire/wharfe dale stations will need platform lengthening. Not sure which ones.
K
 
Last edited:

Loop & Link

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2015
Messages
515
I had noted at Allerton Depot this afternoon (15.15hrs), there were at least 4 Class 319's (out of 20) on shed including one in the Wheel Lathe House. This would suggest, if my information is correct, one/two turns today are therefore DMU in lieu of Class 319?

No that should be correct 3 spare/on exam the other one to work an ECS into Lime St at 1645 and form the 1717 Preston.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
2,098
I had noted at Allerton Depot this afternoon (15.15hrs), there were at least 4 Class 319's (out of 20) on shed including one in the Wheel Lathe House. This would suggest, if my information is correct, one/two turns today are therefore DMU in lieu of Class 319?

No, four is the number of 319s which should be stabled at Allerton at 15.15 hrs Mondays to Fridays, so if there weren't any more there which you couldn't see, then it's reasonable to suppose that the other sixteen units were out working, and that there wasn't any dmu substitution.

The 319 turnout reaches its peak at 16.46 hrs, an extra unit is then scheduled to depart Allerton and operate the 17.17 hrs Lime Street to Preston.

EDIT: Oops, Loop & Link jumped in while I was preparing my post..
 
Last edited:

Rail Bus

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2012
Messages
92
Six-car 331s (doubled up) will replace the four-car Class 333s on the busiest West Yorkshire services, which in turn will be used on the Doncaster-Leeds line to replace the currently eight-strong 321/322 fleet.
So 16 of the 3 car will be going to West Yorkshire, what about the other 15? And what about the 4 car, they just to replace the 323's but is there enough of them?
 

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,386
Location
Birmingham
So 16 of the 3 car will be going to West Yorkshire, what about the other 15? And what about the 4 car, they just to replace the 323's but is there enough of them?

Northern Connect services to Blackpool and Windermere (if they're electrified in time) have to fit somewhere in there, though I don't know how many units will be allocated to that.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
So 16 of the 3 car will be going to West Yorkshire, what about the other 15? And what about the 4 car, they just to replace the 323's but is there enough of them?

Northern Connect services to Blackpool and Windermere (if they're electrified in time) have to fit somewhere in there, though I don't know how many units will be allocated to that.

From what I understand the 4 car 331s will be used of Glossop services and other stopping services out of Manchester. The remaining 3 car ones will mainly be used on Northern Connect services which will mean 6 car workings, at least at peak times.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see where the conflict about how many extra 319s are arriving at Northern has come from. A footnote on P152 of the franchise agreement confirms that only 7 of the 12 additional 319s which will be going to Northern are intended to be kept beyond 1 February 2020 but the other 5 can be kept longer if there's a delay in getting replacement stock i.e. the final batch of 331s.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Crossforth

Established Member
Joined
20 Aug 2009
Messages
1,337
Location
Lancashire
Of the four 319s that sit at Allerton during the day, is 319379 still one of them? When I have been checking for its whereabouts over the past few months, it always seems to be out of service.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,347
Location
Yorkshire
I believe quite a number of platforms including the 2 new aire/wharfe dale stations will need platform lengthening. Not sure which ones.
K

I think the plan is that the services calling at Apperley Bridge and/or Kirkstall Forge are not the busiest, so will remain 333-operated. Some of the older stations may well get extended though, in particular P1, 2, 4 and 5 at Shipley. Additionally I wouldn't rule out some of the quieter off-peak services (think Bradford to Leeds, Ilkley and Skipton) being operated by a single 3-car 331.
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,323
I believe quite a number of platforms including the 2 new aire/wharfe dale stations will need platform lengthening. Not sure which ones.
K

According to the franchise agreement, Northern's platform lengthening programme includes only the"Leeds to Skipton" line and not Bradford FS or Ilkley services. Also the exact stations whose platforms are to be lengthened on the named routes are still to be agreed between Arriva and the DfT, but if the 2 new stations are served by Bradford/Ilkley trains (???), I cant see any chance of them being lengthened.
 
Last edited:

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,664
Using the available information i today tried to work out the percentage increases for the Northern Fleet by Dec 2019. It makes for some quite interesting reading so i thought i would share. I am hoping any errors will be small.

The increase in units is from 340 to 367. A mere 7.9% increase. Not very much.
The increase in carriages is from 780 to 941. A much more significant 20,6%.
The increase in total carriage length is from 15.52km to 20.75km. An increase of 33.8% in the length of train available at one time.

Amazing how you can skew statistics depending on how you measure it!
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
10,491
Location
Cheshire
I think the plan is that the services calling at Apperley Bridge and/or Kirkstall Forge are not the busiest, so will remain 333-operated. Some of the older stations may well get extended though, in particular P1, 2, 4 and 5 at Shipley. Additionally I wouldn't rule out some of the quieter off-peak services (think Bradford to Leeds, Ilkley and Skipton) being operated by a single 3-car 331.

In this case then there will have to be some serious re-design of the current Aire / Wharfe diagrams. Most services arriving into Leeds and Bradford do not head back out in the same direction. So for example an inbound service from Skipton into Leeds would then usually form a Bradford service heading back out. And even though the services out of Bradford tend to be quieter than those heading out of Leeds, some can still get quite busy an might struggle with a 3 car 331 formation.

Ironically platform 4 which handles Leeds & Ilkley services into Bradford will be the easiest of platforms to lengthen at Shipley despite being possibly the quietest, which will be very useful when VTEC start running 2-hourly Kings Cross services through to Bradford (assuming of course that they will be pathed to call there). Whereas probably the two busiest platforms in 1 & 2 serving Leeds / Skipton / Beyond will probably be the most difficult, although 5 would also be a challenge.

Elsewhere I would be very suprised if at least some Wharfe stations don't see platform extentions, even with the 2 extra services in the peaks a 321/322/333 can get pretty rammed. As for Apperley & Kirkstall, they'll probably stay as they are until / if numbers get high enough to justify stopping any 2x3 car services there.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Using the available information i today tried to work out the percentage increases for the Northern Fleet by Dec 2019. It makes for some quite interesting reading so i thought i would share. I am hoping any errors will be small.

The increase in units is from 340 to 367. A mere 7.9% increase. Not very much.
The increase in carriages is from 780 to 941. A much more significant 20,6%.
The increase in total carriage length is from 15.52km to 20.75km. An increase of 33.8% in the length of train available at one time.

Amazing how you can skew statistics depending on how you measure it!

The amount of time and maths required to work out the length increase with differing length classes and units being released.

My hat off to you sir.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
2,098
Originally Posted by Greybeard33
The 319 on the Piccadilly to Airport shuttle actually operates to 323 timings. It generally seems to keep to them.

Well yesterday the 319 didn't arrive on time at Heald Green once on the Airport bound services. The delays (to the nearest minute) were 4, 3, 5, 7, 6, 6, 10, 5, 5, 4, 6, 5, 11, 4. Obviously it's not just the performance of the 319 that will lead to delays but to not have even one departure within 2 minutes of the timetabled time is very poor. If you take the terminus times then I imagine they show most services only 2 services at least 5 minutes late and some on time due to the generous recovery time that Northern add in.

I wouldn't call the recovery times on Picc-Apt 'generous' - it only amounts to about three minutes between Heald Green and the Airport, and the same amount between Mauldeth Road and Piccadilly coming the other way. Even then, it seems to vary between journeys - the 0746 ex-Airport (M/F) doesn't appear to have any, although the effect is simply to give an earlier WTT arrival at Picc - departure time is pretty much the norm.

The recovery time is generally soaked up in the course of the journey - it's very rare, indeed, for a unit to arrive at its terminus three minutes prior to the WTT time. The turnaround time at Picc seems particularly tight - 4/5 minutes, that's hardly long enough for the driver to change ends. In reality, as turnarounds at Picc never take less than three minutes, and usually take longer, it follows that if a unit is late in arriving, it is usually late in departing.

I can't see why the Picc-Apts don't interwork with the Stoke stoppers, tbh - for much of the day the Stokes have a 49-minute drop-back at Picc.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
I can't see why the Picc-Apts don't interwork with the Stoke stoppers, tbh - for much of the day the Stokes have a 49-minute drop-back at Picc.

Well at the moment the 319 used on the Airport stoppers can't keep to 323 timings on the WCML due to the 319's inferior acceleration. Virgin and XC won't be happy if their services get delayed due to Northern using a 319 on a Stoke service.

The 319s will be allowed to work Glossop services once the North TPE recast reduces the number of TPE services through Guide Bridge, so putting a 319 on a Glossop diagram would release a 323 for South Manchester until the 331s start to arrive.
 

Class 170101

On Moderation
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,661
I see where the conflict about how many extra 319s are arriving at Northern has come from. A footnote on P152 of the franchise agreement confirms that only 7 of the 12 additional 319s which will be going to Northern are intended to be kept beyond 1 February 2020 but the other 5 can be kept longer if there's a delay in getting replacement stock i.e. the final batch of 331s.

Why this date? Do the DfT already have something lined up for them immediately after this date?
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
Well at the moment the 319 used on the Airport stoppers can't keep to 323 timings on the WCML due to the 319's inferior acceleration. Virgin and XC won't be happy if their services get delayed due to Northern using a 319 on a Stoke service.

Might traincrew route/traction knowledge, and the associated training costs, be another impediment to the use of 319s on Stoke services?
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
2,098
Well at the moment the 319 used on the Airport stoppers can't keep to 323 timings on the WCML due to the 319's inferior acceleration.

I can only presume that by 'WCML' you mean Oxford Road-Airport, since there are no other sections of route covered by both 319s and 323s. Yes, there is a difference between the two types, but it only equates to a time penalty of 10-20 seconds per station start.

Virgin and XC won't be happy if their services get delayed due to Northern using a 319 on a Stoke service.

I certainly didn't suggest 319s should be used on Stoke, a mix of the two types on the same route would be a bit at variance with current thinking, and there are other duties the existing Stockport-based 319 could do. As it happens, I don't see Stoke as any big deal anyway, with 319s the journey time Stockport-Stoke would increase by 1.5-3 minutes, so a slight adjustment might have to be made to one or two VT and/or XC timings. However for most of the day there are only two VT and two XC in each direction per hour, so there should still be room for everyone.
What happens if a stopper gets delayed by a late-running VT or XC - are Northern simply required to 'grin and bear it'?

The 319s will be allowed to work Glossop services once the North TPE recast reduces the number of TPE services through Guide Bridge, so putting a 319 on a Glossop diagram would release a 323 for South Manchester until the 331s start to arrive.

I think you've got completely the wrong end of the stick, here. Surely the objection to using 319s on Hadfield is that they would struggle to keep to the existing timings, which, at 90 minutes for a round trip Picc-Hadfield-Picc, are very tight indeed.
Over the section Picc-Guide Bridge 319s would increase the journey time by less than a minute, they would still take less time than the Rose Hill diesels, and there's currently only four TPE/hour in each direction, so I don't think that interference with TPE services is an issue.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
No I mean Manchester to Crewe and Stoke. You don't have to actually use a train on a route to prove it's unsuitable. Porterbrook have done all sorts of computer simulated trials to prove expensive modifications can be made to the 319s to make them suitable to replace 323s when they currently aren't suitable but no operator took up that offer.

You're forgetting extra services run at peak times and there's quite a lot of double track sections. Virgin services delay Northern on a regular basis but Northern are required to fit their services around Virgin not the other way around. If there's a high risk of a Northern service delaying a Virgin service the path won't get approval.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,664
The amount of time and maths required to work out the length increase with differing length classes and units being released.

My hat off to you sir.

Took 10 minutes on Excel. :) I am just quite accustomed to Excel and its inner workings to be able to quickly drag calculations.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
2,098
No I mean Manchester to Crewe and Stoke. You don't have to actually use a train on a route to prove it's unsuitable. Porterbrook have done all sorts of computer simulated trials to prove expensive modifications can be made to the 319s to make them suitable to replace 323s when they currently aren't suitable but no operator took up that offer.

Was that the famous idea to knock out the TSO and give the 319s a slightly better power/weight ratio than the 323s? You don't need a computer simulation to work that out, I've just done it with my calculator.
How expensive the modification would prove would probably depend on what happened to all the redundant TSOs. If the answer to that one is, they would be thrown away, yes, I suppose it would be an expensive modification.

You're forgetting extra services run at peak times

There are only two peak-time extras, both Virgin - 0627 and 0700 Picc-Euston. The 0627 runs eight minutes in front of another Virgin, and doesn't conflict with the stopper. As for the 0700, the stopper which, on the normal cycle would depart Picc at xx.46, instead leaves at 0632, gets overtaken by the 0635 Virgin at Stockport, then manages to remain comfortably in front of the 0700 Virgin all the way to Stoke. The stopper could leave at 0635, the extra three minutes are needed for the Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel calls.

and there's quite a lot of double track sections.

All my calculations have assumed that all of Stockport-Stoke is double track, with no passing places, and, indeed, there are no scheduled overtaking manoeuvres. Whether a stopper could be sidelined at Macc in order to be overtaken by a late-running express, I don't know, I haven't checked it out. I know there is a third platform at Macc, but it doesn't appear to get a great deal of use, other than in respect of terminating trains. Oddly, the third platform is not acknowledged on the National Rail station plan.

Virgin services delay Northern on a regular basis but Northern are required to fit their services around Virgin not the other way around.

I suggest that's simply not true. Taking the situation of the off-peak, there are two VT and two XC trains per hour in each direction. If those trains were to be scheduled at even intervals (i.e. 15 mins apart), there would be no scope for running a stopper, without arranging an overtaking move at some point. In fact the four expresses are scheduled to leave Stockport for Stoke at xx.16, xx.23, xx.35, and xx.43, leaving a 33-minute gap before the next, and therefore time to get the stopper all the way to Stoke. Clearly, someone has made a point of creating a space for the stopper.
In the opposite direction the equivalent gap is only 25 minutes, but it's still enough to accommodate the stopper.

If there's a high risk of a Northern service delaying a Virgin service the path won't get approval.

I'm inclined to suspect that an existing service would take precedence over a proposed, but I think all proposed path applications would be considered on their merits. Virgin could have presumably continued having their trains call at Congleton, but instead chose to go along with the idea for an hourly stopper to be operated.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Bovverboy - at the 2008 recast this peak time extra Northern service proved difficult to path: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y14355/2016/08/01/advanced They had to run it in what should have been the path for a Mid-Cheshire service between Piccadilly and Stockport and it's WTT arrival at Stoke is just 3 minutes ahead of the 17:35 Piccadilly to Euston service. A 319 being 10-20 seconds slower per station (according to your own estimate) would result in there being no path to run that service using a 319 unless it was truncated at Macclesfield.

From December 2017 there won't just be morning peak extras to Manchester and evening peak extras from Manchester, they'll be 2 Northern services per hour between Macclesfield and Manchester in both directions every hour with some peak time services making extra calls or providing an extra service to Stoke. I imagine Arriva's plan to use 319s on Glossop services by the end of next year is partly to release 323s for those extra Macclesfield line services to keep 319s well away from Macclesfield and Stoke.

I suggest that's simply not true. Taking the situation of the off-peak, there are two VT and two XC trains per hour in each direction. If those trains were to be scheduled at even intervals (i.e. 15 mins apart), there would be no scope for running a stopper, without arranging an overtaking move at some point. In fact the four expresses are scheduled to leave Stockport for Stoke at xx.16, xx.23, xx.35, and xx.43, leaving a 33-minute gap before the next, and therefore time to get the stopper all the way to Stoke. Clearly, someone has made a point of creating a space for the stopper.

Virgin have to leave sufficient paths for Northern but they get first choice of paths. They want a Manchester to London train every 20 minutes, giving Stoke a clock face service pattern to Manchester is low on their list of priorities.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
2,098
On Mondays to Fridays there is no XC departure from Picc at 1727, when you would have thought there would be. The only explanation I can think is that the relevant path was required for the 1710 stopper, Deansgate to Stoke. So there would appear to be an example of an express playing second fiddle to a local service.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
On Mondays to Fridays there is no XC departure from Picc at 1727, when you would have thought there would be. The only explanation I can think is that the relevant path was required for the 1710 stopper, Deansgate to Stoke. So there would appear to be an example of an express playing second fiddle to a local service.

There's a 17:27 XC Manchester to Leamington Spa via Birmingham service
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C73035/2016/08/01/advanced

I'm not sure why it goes to and terminates at Leamington Spa after Birmingham but I doubt that's anything to do with XC not getting the paths they want because of Northern!
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
2,098
There's a 17:27 XC Manchester to Leamington Spa via Birmingham service
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C73035/2016/08/01/advanced

I'm not sure why it goes to and terminates at Leamington Spa after Birmingham but I doubt that's anything to do with XC not getting the paths they want because of Northern!

Yes, I was a bit quick to say there wasn't a 1727 XC, there obviously is, but it goes via Crewe instead of Stoke. The reason for this, I suggest, is as given above.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top