Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[WatcherZero]

Cant see any 319 failures at the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

Cant see any 319 failures at the moment.

Looking at the usual 319 services:

Manchester Airport to Liverpool - suspended due to engineering works.
Manchester Victoria to Liverpool - suspended due to engineering works.
Warington Bank Quay to Liverpool - doesn't operate on Sundays.
Liverpool South Parkway to Preston - isn't operated by 319s on Sundays. All services continue to Blackpool.
Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan - running as usual - 2 units required
Manchester Airport to Manchester - running as usual but isn't it still operated by 323s on Sundays?

So that's 17 or 18 of the 319s sat out-of-service today and 2 or 3 in service. Keeping up to 3 units going today shouldn't be too much of a challenge!

 

[158722]

One of the magazines this month is quoting an extra 12 319s for Northern - first time I've seen indication of a number for the extra units.

 

[northwichcat]

One of the magazines this month is quoting an extra 12 319s for Northern - first time I've seen indication of a number for the extra units.

Apparently the 77 extra vehicles mentioned as being introduced in 2017 will be 12 x 319s and the 150/1s currently with FGW (which are off-lease in 2017), that gives a total of 78 vehicles but Northern are to release a 153 to EMT so the figures add up if it doesn't include replacing the 323s.

The FGW 153s are also supposed to be off-lease in 2017 so at the moment it sounds like Northern won't be taking them on. Northern could even be releasing their existing 153s in 2018 or 2019, it's impossible to draw any conclusions from the information we have for then by the time they'll be new build, further cascades and withdrawals.

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't think we can say much for certain at the moment. The position on cascades could change if things, such as GWR Electrification is, keep falling behind. A case of "this can't be done until that has been done".

 

[158722]

Apparently the 77 extra vehicles mentioned as being introduced in 2017 will be 12 x 319s and the 150/1s currently with FGW (which are off-lease in 2017), that gives a total of 78 vehicles but Northern are to release a 153 to EMT so the figures add up if it doesn't include replacing the 323s.

The FGW 153s are also supposed to be off-lease in 2017 so at the moment it sounds like Northern won't be taking them on. Northern could even be releasing their existing 153s in 2018 or 2019, it's impossible to draw any conclusions from the information we have for then by the time they'll be new build, further cascades and withdrawals.

FGW have 17x 150/1s = 34 vehicles plus 48 319s = 82. Doesn't add up...

 

[Clarence Yard]

It does add up. Only 30 150/1 GW cars are being released in 2017. The remaining 4 go off lease in 2018.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think we can say much for certain at the moment. The position on cascades could change if things, such as GWR Electrification is, keep falling behind. A case of "this can't be done until that has been done".

Looking at the GWR Direct Award it doesn't look like the 150/1s are on a flexible lease (unlike the Scotrail 170s and the GWR HSTs.) Therefore, given Arriva will have a franchise agreement saying additional services will be introduced in 2017 and may have agreed a lease with the ROSCO for the 150/1s to transfer in 2017, there may not be anything GWR can do to prevent their 150/1s leaving in 2017 except possibly delaying their departure by a few months, so they only just arrive in the North in time for the December 17 timetable change. GWR will probably easily be able to extend their lease for their 143s (and obviously they can keep the 143s which are franchise assets as long as they need to.)
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It does add up. Only 30 150/1 GW cars are being released in 2017. The remaining 4 go off lease in 2018.

Indeed. I get the impression GWR are planning to keep 4 x 150/1 carriages for an extra year to cover refurbishment programs. (Once the 150s have had the post-2019 modifications the hybrid 150/9s will cease to exist.)

 

[Clarence Yard]

The 4 cars that were kept in the DA till 2018 were working Exeter locals until the 150/0 3 cars were released from the London area on electrification of the Basingstoke service.

The two hybrids were meant to revert to normal by May 2017 by which time the two odd 150/2 cars would be converted to a PRM standard unit.

The sequence was the main tranche of Turbos to the west from December 2016 to May 2017. All but 5 158 3 car units would revert to 2 cars and the 15x fleet would start to go back to the ROSCOs, 9 x 153 in May, 5 x 153 in July, 26 x 150/1 in August, 4 x 150/1 in December (after Thames branch electrification releases more Turbos) and then the last 4 x 150/1 in December 2018. The 143 units would have been binned early in 2017

These are the dates that are in the published FA on the DfT website. There was some slack in the hand back to allow for electrification delays but not on the scale now being talked about.

Electrification to Didcot by December 2017, a short extension of existing leases and retention of the 143 fleet for a short period would solve most of the issues but if Turbo clearance in the West is not sorted by then, it will get very awkward.

 

[Viscount702]

One of the magazines this month is quoting an extra 12 319s for Northern - first time I've seen indication of a number for the extra units.

Where will these be used.

It looks like only Preston will be wired by December 2017 and as things stand the only service that could go over to electric traction is the Hazel Grove - Preston if it doesn't continue to Blackpool.

 

[Iskra]

Where will these be used.

It looks like only Preston will be wired by December 2017 and as things stand the only service that could go over to electric traction is the Hazel Grove - Preston if it doesn't continue to Blackpool.

When will the Windermere branch be ready?

There are still DMU diagrams operating completely under the wires at the moment. Some of the Liverpool-Prestons are still DMU.

 

[northwichcat]

Where will these be used.

It looks like only Preston will be wired by December 2017 and as things stand the only service that could go over to electric traction is the Hazel Grove - Preston if it doesn't continue to Blackpool.

Arriva would have based their plans on the ITT and electrification plans at the time which had the final part of the Blackpool to Preston work being done as part of 12? week blockade starting in December 2016.
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There are still DMU diagrams operating completely under the wires at the moment. Some of the Liverpool-Prestons are still DMU.

The services you're referring to must meet one of the following criteria:
1. The Blackpool services which are DMU for obvious reasons.
2. DMUs filling for failed 319s (a fairly regular occurrence given the poor reliability of the 319s*.)
3. An early/late service where it's more efficient to use a DMU or combination of DMUs which need moving to/from Allerton than to use a 319 and to run a DMU(s) as a separate ECS.

* Given Northern never need more than 16 of their 20 x 319s in service at any one time, giving them more is not a solution to this.

 

[snowball]

When will the Windermere branch be ready?

Likely to be CP6 now. The Hendy report says only that GRIP 3 will be completed in CP5 and an announcement will be made then. Same for Lostock Junction to Wigan.

 

[Loop & Link]

Arriva would have based their plans on the ITT and electrification plans at the time which had the final part of the Blackpool to Preston work being done as part of 12? week blockade starting in December 2016.
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The services you're referring to must meet one of the following criteria:
1. The Blackpool services which are DMU for obvious reasons.
2. DMUs filling for failed 319s (a fairly regular occurrence given the poor reliability of the 319s*.)
3. An early/late service where it's more efficient to use a DMU or combination of DMUs which need moving to/from Allerton than to use a 319 and to run a DMU(s) as a separate ECS.

* Given Northern never need more than 16 of their 20 x 319s in service at any one time, giving them more is not a solution to this.

I'm going to be honest am not seeing this poor 319 reliability - I think there was a DMU vice 319 once ot twice last week. It happens! Bear in mind I'm on these trains nearly every day and I've yet to have a failure of be caught up in one!

Very few DMU services under the wires now - 1716 Lime St-Blackpool/1803 Blackpool-Lime St and 1903 Wigan-Lime St are just three off the top of my head.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm going to be honest am not seeing this poor 319 reliability - I think there was a DMU vice 319 once ot twice last week. It happens! Bear in mind I'm on these trains nearly every day and I've yet to have a failure of be caught up in one!

Well I've never been on a 150 that has failed while I've been on the train in 31 years and I've only been on 2 x 142s which have failed while I've been on the train in just under that time, despite regularly travelling on both types of units. However, I've been affected by delays, cancellations and short formations due to faults and failures of both type of traction on numerous occasions. Therefore I wouldn't say 'not being on a 319 that has failed in service in less than a year of service in the North' as an indication of the failure rate being low.

Very few DMU services under the wires now - 1716 Lime St-Blackpool/1803 Blackpool-Lime St and 1903 Wigan-Lime St are just three off the top of my head.

Any Blackpool services aren't DMUs under the wires.

19:03 Wigan to Lime Street appears to be the unit off the 18:14 Manchester to Wigan via Atherton, so it sounds like that's a case of where a DMU under the wires is used to prevent additional ECS movements.

 

[andyb2706]

FGW have 17x 150/1s = 34 vehicles plus 48 319s = 82. Doesn't add up...

Sorry for being pedantic but it does add up. FGW only has 15 150/1 units (30 vehicles).

Because they have 2 150/0 units and 150125 and 150126 have been reformed into 3 car units in the 150/9's.
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I'm going to be honest am not seeing this poor 319 reliability - I think there was a DMU vice 319 once ot twice last week. It happens! Bear in mind I'm on these trains nearly every day and I've yet to have a failure of be caught up in one!

Oh.....that's tempting fate. Good luck on your next couple of journeys.

 

[Class 170101]

Any Blackpool services aren't DMUs under the wires.

It is if it runs from Lime Street direct to Liverpool as one train. Lime Street to Preston is wired.

 

[northwichcat]

It is if it runs from Lime Street direct to Liverpool as one train. Lime Street to Preston is wired.

Running DMUs under wires should refer to services 100% under overhead electrics, if you start including services partly under wires then all you have is a very long list of services that no-one really wants to see split up except for a few electrification enthusiasts.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Any Blackpool services aren't DMUs under the wires.

Would mind clearing that up into the Queen's English...? For the life of me, I do not know it that is a statement or a badly written question

 

[northwichcat]

Would mind clearing that up into the Queen's English...? For the life of me, I do not know it that is a statement or a badly written question

A Blackpool to Liverpool service can not be operated by an EMU in lieu of a DMU because the overheads required do not yet exist to allow it.

I take it you do realise I posted that in response to Loop & Link who posted

Very few DMU services under the wires now - 1716 Lime St-Blackpool/1803 Blackpool-Lime St and 1903 Wigan-Lime St are just three off the top of my head.

The reply read as a standalone statement doesn't have to make sense but it should when the reader reads both the reply and the post they are replying to.

 

[DJH1971]

The 319 failures are still continuing.

The 16:16 LIV-MIA service today was a crowded 150 instead, as a 319 failed.

 

[Loop & Link]

That was an OHL issue rather than a demic 319.

*Correction* Just looked there was an OHL issue but 386 was also a failure with Speedo fault.

 

[8J]

The 22:09 MCV - LIV failed in the Eccles area... In a neutral section. Ended up just under 2hrs late. Was formed of 319378 + 319361 so I'm told.

 

[DJH1971]

And another 319 failure this morning.

The 07:38 MCV - LIV service is just a 2 car 150 this morning. Could be a case of some passengers being turned away today.

 

[childwallblues]

The 0738 MCV-LIV was one of those trains that remained DMU until the last timetable change. I don't think that the unit remains in service after arrival in LIV.

There were 3 x 319s on Allerton Depot at 1315 yesterday one of which was 377.

 

[Loop & Link]

And another 319 failure this morning.

The 07:38 MCV - LIV service is just a 2 car 150 this morning. Could be a case of some passengers being turned away today.

Reaction to last nights failures.

It is booked a 319.

 

[DJH1971]

Back to a 319 for today's 16:16 LIV-MAN service

 

[8A Rail]

And another 319 failure this morning.

The 07:38 MCV - LIV service is just a 2 car 150 this morning. Could be a case of some passengers being turned away today.

Reaction to last nights failures.
It is booked a 319.

Back to a 319 for today's 16:16 LIV-MAN service

No 150145 was on the Liverpool Lime St - Warrington Bank Quay service today vice Class 319. It certainly done at least 3 round trips from my visual observations.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

No 150145 was on the Liverpool Lime St - Warrington Bank Quay service today vice Class 319. It certainly done at least 3 round trips from my visual observations.

Did it do 3 round trips or did it do 6 singles...?

 

[DasLunatic]

Here's an idea: are 319s coupling compatible with 150s or Pacers? They both have tightlock coupling heads, the couplers are all in the same spot...