Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[ScotGG]

Some people argue the 322s were the last of one generation and the 323s were the first of the next.

Wasn't the Networker (class 465) the first of the new generation? It entered service in '91 so almost 25 years old now, and the 323 entered service in 1992.

Those 25 year old networkers are still in large scale service without any kind of widepread interior refurbishment and none imminent.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wasn't the Networker (class 465) the first of the new generation? It entered service in '91 so almost 25 years old now, and the 323 entered service in 1992.
Those 25 year old networkers are still in large scale service without any kind of widepread interior refurbishment and none imminent.

Class 465 was the first BR EMU class with an AC traction package.
The Networkers also had a totally new bodyshell (although the Chiltern Line's diesel 165s were the first of the type delivered), and represented the first departure from the Mk3 bodyshell.
The later Class 323s were also entirely new, and also with AC electrics (Hunslet/Holec).
It's worth recalling that all the above were regarded with derision at first, with very poor reliability compared to what they replaced.
323s also spent a long time parked at Bletchley waiting for mods after proving unusable in snow and ice.
With the subsequent failure of Hunslet, the 323 development line was a dead end; 465s (the BREL/ABB version) led to 365s and turbo/electrostars.

 

[fowler9]

I got a 319 on the slow line from Parkway to Lime Street on the 14:03 to Preston. The traction Motors sounded like a light saber battle as it tried to get going. Doing that every day can't be good for them.

 

[krus_aragon]

The traction Motors sounded like a light saber battle as it tried to get going.

Hm... the (electromotive) force is strong with this one...

 

[fowler9]

Hm... the (electromotive) force is strong with this one...

Ha ha, the force wasn't that strong.

 

[Bevan Price]

Stirring a bit of a hornets nest there suggesting it's poor driving technique! You're right about the wheels with there being more flats at this time of year but the driving technique has been hammered into us for years for this time of year. If you have trouble getting going, then you're gonna have trouble stopping is a good rule of thumb. It's Network Rail's time that gets lost so no one will push it if it's slippy out there.

Comment was made from personal experience of quite a number of journeys on 319s, and was not intended to criticise drivers, rather suggesting an observation that may help them to reduce slipping.

In wet weather, those drivers who accelerate more slowly from stops seem to be those most likely to avoid severe slipping. Trying to accelerate more rapidly seems more likely to induce slipping in poor rail conditions.

As a passenger, I have obviously not been in the cab of a 319, but does the control system allow drivers to select how quickly power is applied ?

Those of us who lived in the steam era recall how a combination of high power + insufficient adhesion often caused 4-6-2 locos to slip when starting on adverse gradients, whereas a lower powered 4-6-0 was less likely to slip.

 

[urpert]

m

Those 25 year old networkers are still in large scale service without any kind of widepread interior refurbishment and none imminent.

And don't we regulars know it :-/

 

[deltic08]

Those of us who lived in the steam era recall how a combination of high power + insufficient adhesion often caused 4-6-2 locos to slip when starting on adverse gradients, whereas a lower powered 4-6-0 was less likely to slip.

It was also due to more weight being on the rear driving wheel of a 4-6-0 whereas the trailing truck of a 4-6-2 tended to support the weight of the rear driving axle. Additionally 4-6-0s tended to have smaller driving wheels which rotated less distance per piston stroke than larger driving wheels so had less tendency to slip.

This is why Class 5 4-6-0 locos handled 10 coaches unassisted on 1 in 60 gradients over the Mendips on the S&D and 4-6-2 West Country's had to be piloted. 2-10-0 9Fs could handle 12 coaches without a slip on these gradients.

GWR King and Castle Class locos performed similarly over the steeper South Devon banks with up to 14 coaches unassisted with very little slipping.

 

[driver_m]

Comment was made from personal experience of quite a number of journeys on 319s, and was not intended to criticise drivers, rather suggesting an observation that may help them to reduce slipping.

In wet weather, those drivers who accelerate more slowly from stops seem to be those most likely to avoid severe slipping. Trying to accelerate more rapidly seems more likely to induce slipping in poor rail conditions.

As a passenger, I have obviously not been in the cab of a 319, but does the control system allow drivers to select how quickly power is applied ?

Those of us who lived in the steam era recall how a combination of high power + insufficient adhesion often caused 4-6-2 locos to slip when starting on adverse gradients, whereas a lower powered 4-6-0 was less likely to slip.

At a guess I'd assume a 319 had power notches like the other units of the time. There's also the fact that some units can have very different characteristics within the class. Certain class 90 locos would result in a very obvious groan if they turned up in wet weather as some were much worse performers than others in the class.

 

[northwichcat]

With the 700 delivery being later than originally expected it's always been the intention for Electrostars to temporarily replace 319s so the 319s can still be freed up to be used on services in other parts of the country.

 

[physics34]

as i continually cant keep track of these can someone please list the latest know locations of the remaining units and the quantities involved or is there still expected to be spares with nowhere to go. Cheers.

 

[D365]

as i continually cant keep track of these can someone please list the latest know locations of the remaining units and the quantities involved or is there still expected to be spares with nowhere to go. Cheers.

Do you refer to Class 319 units that have not be taken on by a new operator? As I understand it, all 20 of the initial tranche are in service with Northern. The 29 Class 387/1s were intended to replace and release an equivalent number of Class 319s, therefore that would imply five more units are available. Though it depends on if London Midland can even keep theirs in working order.

 

[physics34]

Do you refer to Class 319 units that have not be taken on by a new operator? As I understand it, all 20 of the initial tranche are in service with Northern. The 29 Class 387/1s were intended to replace and release an equivalent number of Class 319s, therefore that would imply five more units are available. Though it depends on if London Midland can even keep theirs in working order.

20 units to Northern
4 units to LM

which leaves 59 units!

I know there may be a few more going to Northern and LM but that leaves a sizable chunk with no plans.

 

[childwallblues]

20 units to Northern
4 units to LM

which leaves 59 units!

I know there may be a few more going to Northern and LM but that leaves a sizable chunk with no plans.

59? 86 - 24 = 62 when I was at school. Has the age of the computer changed this?

 

[D365]

59? 86 - 24 = 62 when I was at school. Has the age of the computer changed this?

My assumption in explaining the discrepancy is three additional units to London Midland.

 

[physics34]

59? 86 - 24 = 62 when I was at school. Has the age of the computer changed this?

Didn't realise the maths police were in operation on Christmas day!

I wrongly thought there were 83 units in existence, but yes indeed there are 86.

 

[Class377/5]

Your numbers are coming up wrong as you've not accounted for the two funits at Wolverton and two more spot hire. Also the 387 fleet is expected to work longer before requiring maintenance meaning its not like for like hence the 'missing' unit.

 

[childwallblues]

My assumption in explaining the discrepancy is three additional units to London Midland.

No problem.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Just a quickie. Are all 20 now in operation and does anyone have the numbers?

Updating my spotting books ovee the holidays.

Many thanks.

 

[Bevan Price]

Just a quickie. Are all 20 now in operation and does anyone have the numbers?

Updating my spotting books ovee the holidays.

Many thanks.

The abrail database lists 20 allocated to Allerton: See-

http://www.abrail.co.uk/emuformations.htm

 

[D365]

Your numbers are coming up wrong as you've not accounted for the two funits at Wolverton and two more spot hire.

You're referring to the off-lease Class 319s, I take it.

Also the 387 fleet is expected to work longer before requiring maintenance meaning its not like for like hence the 'missing' unit.

Assuming the timetable has not changed, until the Class 700 service roll-out is underway, how many more Class 319s could be up for grabs?

Haven't heard anything to suggest Bombardier is having trouble with the enhanced reliability specification.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Didn't realise the maths police were in operation on Christmas day!

"The maths police" and "the spelling pedants", like Jesus and "the poor", are with you always, especially on this website....

 

[childwallblues]

Just a quickie. Are all 20 now in operation and does anyone have the numbers?

Updating my spotting books ovee the holidays.

Many thanks.

319361-69/71/74-80/82/83/86 are the units at Allerton.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Thanks for the numbers. Do we know if all are actually in operation yet?

 

[Loop & Link]

Yep all of them have been out and about.

 

[Class377/5]

You're referring to the off-lease Class 319s, I take it.

Assuming the timetable has not changed, until the Class 700 service roll-out is underway, how many more Class 319s could be up for grabs?

Haven't heard anything to suggest Bombardier is having trouble with the enhanced reliability specification.

The ones at Wolverton aren't off lease IIRC, just two 'spares' covering for units away. They are spare on paper only.

The 700/0 will be doing the 319 replacement as the 700/1 will allow the 377/387 to start to be cascaded in early 2016.

Not sure where you come in with Bombardier as the 387s are working harder than the 319s did. Hence it's not a straight 29 for 29 swap.

 

[childwallblues]

Thanks for the numbers. Do we know if all are actually in operation yet?

Yes all 20 are in service since before the timetable change.

 

[Techniquest]

319361-69/71/74-80/82/83/86 are the units at Allerton.

Many thanks from me for those too, I was going to wait for the new NREA to come out in March or April for the gen, but I'm most grateful to graffiti my 2015 NREA with the updates.

Going by the book, I now need 9 319s with Northern. This number is totally unacceptable and needs action asap. Hmm, I might have to re-plan 4th January...

All other 319s are still in use with Thameslink, bar that handful that went to LM correct? I am well behind with what's gone and going where, as you can tell.

Anyway, thanks for the gen!

 

[158722]

All this discussion about fleet totals, etc reminds me about the sub-lease of 6 units to SE vice 377s. Is this still the case? 319217/220/373/421/436/451 were the ones noted previously as being the ones 'nominally' on lease to SE, but used by TSGN in lieu of 377s being used on some SE operated services. I think that was the story anyway!

 

[Class377/5]

All this discussion about fleet totals, etc reminds me about the sub-lease of 6 units to SE vice 377s. Is this still the case? 319217/220/373/421/436/451 were the ones noted previously as being the ones 'nominally' on lease to SE, but used by TSGN in lieu of 377s being used on some SE operated services. I think that was the story anyway!

Correct. Situation is still the same although not sure of unit numbers.