Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[swt_passenger]

As has been said, the wording of official statements so far has been a bit ambiguous.

...and nothing published so far has really been intended to act as an 'all singing and dancing' rolling stock plan! Give it a week or two now, so probably in the new year, and the TOCs might publish something, but are probably under no obligation to do so. The franchise agreement should include tables with numbers and dates, unless they redact it a few weeks after publication.

 

[urpert]

The peaks were usually all 8 car until Jan '15 when some of the stock was raided to extend trains into Cannon Street due to the London Bridge works. The 6 car services are very rammed.

Interesting. The 0653 from Shortlands is full and standing by the time it leaves Beckenham Jn.
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So a fleet of 10x 319s to cover 8 diagrams (4x 8-car sets) would seem good for SE to have all Orpingtons as 8-car whilst freeing up a maximum of 8 465/466s for assisting with 12-car formations elsewhere. Not knowing SE operations that well, are there any other inner-sub workings which could go over to 319s vice Networkers?

All the Victoria suburbans are max 8 car, so you could stick them on Victoria-Dartford as well. I think the Orpington diagrams are pretty much self-contained these days.

 

[hassaanhc]

Not all the Orpington diagrams are 8 coaches - some are 6 (465+466) and some of the inter-peak services are only 4.

I've never seen a pair of 466s alone in over 20 years of using the line.

Found a photo from 2012, although I recall seeing one from earlier in the year too:

466027 by Lewis Smith, on Flickr

Several examples though of such pairs on local services in Kent, like https://flic.kr/p/ePVnkH

 

[northwichcat]

Well despite Northern appearing to have ample 319s, they are apologising for using a 2 car unit on a Wigan-Liverpool diagram currently and they don't really have enough spare DMUs to be filling in for DMUs - 2 North West diesel diagrams are showing as short formed and there's a cancelled peak time extra due to a shortage of diesel carriages.

 

[Loop & Link]

Not ample enough to cover two failures and it's not easy to get a unit off Allerton Depot, no spare driver.

 

[ianhr]

Well despite Northern appearing to have ample 319s, they are apologising for using a 2 car unit on a Wigan-Liverpool diagram currently and they don't really have enough spare DMUs to be filling in for DMUs - 2 North West diesel diagrams are showing as short formed and there's a cancelled peak time extra due to a shortage of diesel carriages.

Not just in the North West. The 07.56 Doncaster-Leeds was a 2-car 142 yesterday in place of a 4-car 321/2 with obvious consequences! No explanation or apology offered. I find it incredible that they should be short of EMUs in Yorks when they have 24 units to cover only Doncaster, Bradford FS, Skipton and Ilkley diagrams!

 

[ScotGG]

Interesting. The 0653 from Shortlands is full and standing by the time it leaves Beckenham Jn.
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All the Victoria suburbans are max 8 car, so you could stick them on Victoria-Dartford as well. I think the Orpington diagrams are pretty much self-contained these days.

Victoria to Dartford could do with a full 8-car peak time service too so if the 319s provide that then fantastic. Badly needed. The first service leaving Vic after 5pm is usually 6 cars (465 and 466) and rammed solid. Tonight it is only 4. Awful levels of crowding.

 

[urpert]

Victoria to Dartford could do with a full 8-car peak time service too so if the 319s provide that then fantastic. Badly needed. The first service leaving Vic after 5pm is usually 6 cars (465 and 466) and rammed solid. Tonight it is only 4. Awful levels of crowding.

I know it's probably impossible because of Tanners Hill Jn, but it would make such a difference if Vic-Dartford and Blackfriars-Sevenoaks could go to 4tph. It's hard to believe now that there was a time when Vic-Orpington was only half hourly.

 

[Class 170101]

Could be for a variety of reasons. Late running trains in front probably.

10:00 to 16:00 thats a lot of late running trains.

 

[childwallblues]

371 on Picc-Airport shuttles which is now a booked working

And 319367 was noted yesterday.

 

[northwichcat]

Every day this week so far there's been either a 319 failing after being put in service or/and a DMU filling in for a 319 on one diagram. One failed on a Victoria-Lime St diagram today.

 

[8J]

If you're referring to the 12:02 MCV - LIV and the 13:20 LIV - MCV as reported on another forum from a reliable source, it was down to a DMU failing on the Kirkby line resulting in the crew being stuck up there so they cancelled it.

 

[AM9]

Those in Northern Rail land should note the eagerness to accept Thameslink 'cast-offs' on Southastern, who have plenty of Networkers and Electrostars but have a genuine train capacity shortage problem and will accept anything that will ease the problem.

 

[northwichcat]

Those in Northern Rail land should note the eagerness to accept Thameslink 'cast-offs' on Southastern, who have plenty of Networkers and Electrostars but have a genuine train capacity shortage problem and will accept anything that will ease the problem.

The problem is the 319s are proving so unreliable that services aren't getting extra capacity. Northern have 20 x 319s and 16 weekday diagrams to use 319s on, so they only need 80% of them in service but it seems having 80% in service every day is proving impossible and people were saying TPE were doing a bad job when they had 1 or 2 of their 10 x 350/4s out-of-service.

LM are also having reliability problems with 319s so I'm doubtful Southeastern would be able to take them on and operate them reliability.

 

[AM9]

The problem is the 319s are proving so unreliable that services aren't getting extra capacity. Northern have 20 x 319s and 16 weekday diagrams to use 319s on, so they only need 80% of them in service but it seems having 80% in service every day is proving impossible and people were saying TPE were doing a bad job when they had 1 or 2 of their 10 x 350/4s out-of-service.

LM are also having reliability problems with 319s so I'm doubtful Southeastern would be able to take them on and operate them reliability.

The problem of reliability doesn't seem to affect Thameslink in the same way so I assume that it is something to do with experience in maintaining them.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem of reliability doesn't seem to affect Thameslink in the same way so I assume that it is something to do with experience in maintaining them.

As has been posted before the ones which have left Thameslink had their 3rd rail equipment removed had a new traction package fitted which is unreliable and even a former FCC fitter who now works at Allerton can't figure out how to make them reliable.

 

[AM9]

As has been posted before the ones which have left Thameslink had their 3rd rail equipment removed had a new traction package fitted which is unreliable and even a former FCC fitter who now works at Allerton can't figure out how to make them reliable.

What you have said implies that they were supplied with incipient faults, therefore the lessor, i.e. Porterbrook should be approached. Why are Northern not pursuing such a course?
The technical remedy would be to reinstate the original traction package which Thameslink seems to manage with on much more intense diagrams.
I suspect that Northern are more content to blame somebody else and not take the necessary steps to deliver a full service to their passengers.
Essentially, it has been reported in here that they picked the units that they wanted from a range on offer. The only modifications required were to remove the pickup shoes to ease route clearance issues, and fit guards/TM control access for the doors. Are the unreliability problems blamed on those parts?

 

[507 001]

They have NOT been fitted with new traction packages.

IIRC the only 'dc equipment' to be removed was the shoe beams.

 

[northwichcat]

What you have said implies that they were supplied with incipient faults, therefore the lessor, i.e. Porterbrook should be approached. Why are Northern not pursuing such a course?

I heard TfGM have asked for an explanation of why reliability has been so poor but I haven't heard what (if any) official response they have given.

Essentially, it has been reported in here that they picked the units that they wanted from a range on offer.

I was under the impression DfT required them to pick units which won't need C6 examinations before the end of the Direct Award period.

 

[AM9]

I heard TfGM have asked for an explanation of why reliability has been so poor but I haven't heard what (if any) official response they have given.

So nobody up there semms to be in that much of a hurry. Such tardiness wouldn't be the norm for TfL.

I was under the impression DfT required them to pick units which won't need C6 examinations before the end of the Direct Award period.

I would be surprised if they haven't left any units of similar vintage and service status down south, so it would seem strange that the level of failure is so high among those taken by Northern compared with those still in Thameslink service.

 

[northwichcat]

So nobody up there semms to be in that much of a hurry. Such tardiness wouldn't be the norm for TfL.

DfT decided Northern could cut back their office staff to save money and one consequence of that is they don't require as detailed reporting to the PTEs as was required before the Direct Award started.

so it would seem strange that the level of failure is so high among those taken by Northern compared with those still in Thameslink service.

Some people are claiming LM's 319 failure is worst than Northern's. As LM haven't had 319s as long as Northern and have a smaller fleet, perhaps they are doing equally well.
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They have NOT been fitted with new traction packages.

IIRC the only 'dc equipment' to be removed was the shoe beams.

Something was said about having a ex-FCC fitter employed at Allerton and him struggling due to things being changed since they were at FCC, I thought it was traction equipment. Someone posted that on a forum - I can't remember if it was someone on here or on wnxx who said that and with so many threads going off-topic at some point it might be difficult to find that post.

 

[muddythefish]

Could it be the 319s are unreliable because they are more than 30 years old?

 

[Bevan Price]

I wonder if some of the problems may be associated with the tendency of Class 319 to slip badly in "poor rail" conditions. Some drivers may need more experience in the techniques of how to minimise slipping. Could some of our "technical" experts comment on whether or not prolonged periods of slipping can damage electrical components ? I also doubt that prolonged slipping does much good to wheels or rail condition.

 

[physics34]

Could it be the 319s are unreliable because they are more than 30 years old?

25 years old

 

[muddythefish]

25 years old

Stand corrected, but certainly significantly older than the new generation of units currently coming into service in the southeast

 

[northwichcat]

Stand corrected, but certainly significantly older than the new generation of units currently coming into service in the southeast

Some people argue the 322s were the last of one generation and the 323s were the first of the next.

 

[driver_m]

I wonder if some of the problems may be associated with the tendency of Class 319 to slip badly in "poor rail" conditions. Some drivers may need more experience in the techniques of how to minimise slipping. Could some of our "technical" experts comment on whether or not prolonged periods of slipping can damage electrical components ? I also doubt that prolonged slipping does much good to wheels or rail condition.

Stirring a bit of a hornets nest there suggesting it's poor driving technique! You're right about the wheels with there being more flats at this time of year but the driving technique has been hammered into us for years for this time of year. If you have trouble getting going, then you're gonna have trouble stopping is a good rule of thumb. It's Network Rail's time that gets lost so no one will push it if it's slippy out there.

 

[Domh245]

Could it be the 319s are unreliable because they are more than 30 years old?

In part, but if that were the case, Thameslink would be falling down daily (well, more than it is now :P)

I will stick to my theory of lack of familiarity on behalf of crew and depot staff, although with every passing day it does seem more tenuous.

 

[geoffk]

I see from Real Time Trains that two and a half round trips on the Manchester Picc - Airport stopper were cancelled this afternoon. I arrived at Picc around 1430 and there was a class 319 at the buffers on platform 12, with a high-viz clad person, presumed engineer, in attendance. This isn't the normal platform for airport trains so I assumed it was "in disgrace". RTT says "problem with the on-board safety systems (M0)."

 

[AM9]

Stand corrected, but certainly significantly older than the new generation of units currently coming into service in the southeast

But no older (by any relevant measure) than the 455s and 321s which are of similar MKIII design, DC motors, etc., and run in their hundreds in the south-east. Similarly, there are the 320s and 322s elsewhere that provide services better with less failure rates than the 319s in Lancashire.
Comparing 319s with Electrostars and Desiros is as irrelevant as comparing 150s, 155s and 156s to 170/172s and 185s.