Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

"Compare to Great Western or East Midland franchises where the 'local' services are balanced with the 'fast' services."

Yes, user groups and others responding to the Northern Invitiation to Tender made this very point. The separation, effectively creaming off profitable services and giving them to TPE, inflates the apparent subsidy to Northern.

Combining the two franchsies would make the subsidy per passenger mile look much better. On the 2013-14 figures TPE operating subsidy per pass'r mile is 5.95p, Northern 25.82p. If the two TOCs are combined this becomes 17.29p.

A franchise equivalent to FGW would be something like the former ATN services, the East Coast services plus the Great Northern services. FGW have the Cornish branches, local services out of Paddington plus a mix of Intercity, regional and local services inbetween.

 

[Loop & Link]

Just to prove how good these 319's are at making up time, with the DMU timings.

1230 Preston-Liverpool Sth Parkway, left Preston 8 late, was on time again at Huyton!

 

[Whistler40145]

Not bad considering the wet weather at present, obviously not causing too many wheelslip problems today.

 

[northwichcat]

Just to prove how good these 319's are at making up time, with the DMU timings.

1230 Preston-Liverpool Sth Parkway, left Preston 8 late, was on time again at Huyton!

Given the service is still timed for 75mph DMUs and the 319s can run up to 100mph on that service it would be worrying if the 319s weren't able to make up late running.

How come the 11:03 Liverpool South Parkway service (the outbound working) is so frequently late at Preston, it seems to frequently get delayed between Wigan and Leyland.

 

[Whistler40145]

I presume that service is uses the slow lines through Leyland?

Unless the pathing is tight between Wigan North Western and Balshaw Lane Junction, then I've really no idea why it runs late.

Any information on this would be great.

 

[driver_m]

Just to prove how good these 319's are at making up time, with the DMU timings.

1230 Preston-Liverpool Sth Parkway, left Preston 8 late, was on time again at Huyton!

60mph track where it got it all back. I reckon that puts to bed any sniping about whether electrification has worked.

 

[geoffk]

Just to recap on the class 319 diagrams, now all 20 units are in service:

3 Liverpool - Man Airport
4 Liverpool - Wigan NW
3 Liverpool - Man Vic
3 Liverpool - Preston
2 Liverpool - Warrington BQ

That's 15, and it's been suggested that the Picc - Airport stopper will have another, releasing a 323. So 16 diagrams for 20 units - is that right?

There's a lot of layover at Man Vic but of course nothing else for the unit to work yet; perhaps it will go to Stalybridge in due course.

 

[northwichcat]

Just to recap on the class 319 diagrams, now all 20 units are in service:

3 Liverpool - Man Airport
4 Liverpool - Wigan NW
3 Liverpool - Man Vic
3 Liverpool - Preston
2 Liverpool - Warrington BQ

That's 15, and it's been suggested that the Picc - Airport stopper will have another, releasing a 323. So 16 diagrams for 20 units - is that right?

There's a lot of layover at Man Vic but of course nothing else for the unit to work yet; perhaps it will go to Stalybridge in due course.

Northern couldn't really make use of 6 extra 319s but they did have an clause in their Direct Award stating that if they lost any units they would get an equivalent number of replacement units (not carriages) so they lost 6 x 156s and the only thing DfT could find to replace them was more 319s, so they finished up with 6 of them.

Hopefully the generous supply of 319s will mean DMUs won't be filling in for class 319 unit failures. Hopefully they'll also have enough Piccadilly crews trained so that if a 323 fails that they can put a 319 on an Alderley Edge working opposed to the usual 142/150 which goes on Alderley Edge workings when they are a 323 down.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Hopefully they'll also have enough Piccadilly crews so that if a 323 fails that they can put a 319 on an Alderley Edge working opposed to the usual 142/150 which goes on Alderley Edge workings when they are a 323 down.

Given that all the 319s are based in Liverpool, I suspect that's a nice theory that won't see practice.

 

[childwallblues]

If only 15/16 are required for service Northern could afford to keep a 319 in the Manchester area,

 

[Loop & Link]

3 units on exam and a spare I reckon.

 

[Buspilot]

If only 15/16 are required for service Northern could afford to keep a 319 in the Manchester area

If Stalybridge had been wired by now, both from Victoria and Guide Bridge, they could keep a 319 in one of the bays there with access to both Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[superkev]

What's happened to the presumably 20 or so dmu's released apart from the six 156 lent to ftp?
K

 

[northwichcat]

What's happened to the presumably 20 or so dmu's released apart from the six 156 lent to ftp?
K

Ones freed up from Liverpool-Manchester services that didn't go to TPE went to provide the new Blackburn-Burnley-Manchester service and strengthen Bolton corridor services.

Ones freed up/being freed up from Liverpool-Warrington/Preston services haven't been redeployed yet, I started a thread on services being strengthened from 14th December here, it sounds like the Atherton line will be the main beneficiary: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=123882

 

[WatcherZero]

Apparently 319's will be refurbished to operate the South Manchester services for a short interim period until new build stock arrives. 323's will be released almost immediately.

Current planned 319 refurbishments by the existing franchise are:
• Passenger information system
• Speaker replacement
• Wheelchair space
• Bike space
• Trial of media screens

There has been a sparks effect noted by Northern. Since introduction of 319's passengers on Liverpool-Wigan services have increased by 10% and Liverpool-Manchester by 11%.
There has also been an improvement in performance

On Time at Origin (OAO)/On time at Destination (OD)
Manchester Airport-Liverpool Route OAO 76.7% to 82.5%, OD 67.2% to 74.4%, PPM 90.9% to 92.8%
Liverpool-Wigan OAO maintained, OD 83.5% to 89.3%, PPM 95%

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently 319's will be refurbished to operate the South Manchester services for a short interim period until new build stock arrives. 323's will be released almost immediately.

Current planned 319 refurbishments by the existing franchise are:
• Passenger information system
• Speaker replacement
• Wheelchair space
• Bike space
• Trial of media screens

There has been a sparks effect noted by Northern. Since introduction of 319's passengers on Liverpool-Wigan services have increased by 10% and Liverpool-Manchester by 11%.
There has also been an improvement in performance

On Time at Origin (OAO)/On time at Destination (OD)
Manchester Airport-Liverpool Route OAO 76.7% to 82.5%, OD 67.2% to 74.4%, PPM 90.9% to 92.8%
Liverpool-Wigan OAO maintained, OD 83.5% to 89.3%, PPM 95%

Being discussed in the next Northern franchise thread are where the new EMUs are going to go, which includes the current 323 routes.

The new EMUs will be deployed on Northern Connect services from Blackpool, Windermere and Preston to Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Crewe, and Stoke-on-Trent. They will also be used on Manchester - Glossop/Hadfield services, which are currently operated by class 323 EMUs, and supplement the existing fleet of class 333 EMUs on services from Leeds to Ilkley, Skipton, and Doncaster.

So I imagine the next franchise will eventually just have a small fleet of 319s mainly for Liverpool services.

 

[WatcherZero]

Liverpool-Wigan, Wigan-Manchester via Bolton, Liverpool-Blackpool will form almost the entirety of 319 usage in the future franchise it looks like.

 

[Viscount702]

Will the 319s for the temp south Manchester services be in addition to the existing 20.

Also would it be correct that 319s may be for

Liverpool - Airport stopper

Liverpool - Wigan

Liverpool - Warrington BQ

Liverpool - Preston/Blackpool

Wigan - Manchester Via Bolton.


If so more than 20 units will be required. There are I believe 17 323s at present. Will that therefore mean 17 more 319 which will then stay for the extra services or will some be released when the new units arrive.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How come the 11:03 Liverpool South Parkway service (the outbound working) is so frequently late at Preston, it seems to frequently get delayed between Wigan and Leyland.

I presume that service is uses the slow lines through Leyland?
Unless the pathing is tight between Wigan North Western and Balshaw Lane Junction, then I've really no idea why it runs late.
Any information on this would be great.

I use this service regularly.
Despite gaining on the DMU schedule, it often waits time at Springs Branch, and again at Euxton Jn.
It is turned slow line at Balshaw Lane and then gets held at Euxton for a late-running Hazel Grove-Blackpool.
Often also held outside Preston to reach P2, where it reverses in a couple of minutes.
The reverse working often gets held at Balshaw Lane for late-running VT/TP, and at Springs Branch ditto.
Also rare not to be held before/after Edge Hill.
Could do with a completely new EMU path (and faster line speeds Huyton-Springs Branch).
It's nice to get up to 100mph through Coppull, though.

Also, the Northern announcement means that Portebrook will shortly have a lot of spare 319s on their hands.
Squadron use of 319s on Northern seems to be out.

 

[fowler9]

Will the 319s for the temp south Manchester services be in addition to the existing 20.

Also would it be correct that 319s may be for

Liverpool - Airport stopper

Liverpool - Wigan

Liverpool - Warrington BQ

Liverpool - Preston/Blackpool

Wigan - Manchester Via Bolton.


If so more than 20 units will be required. There are I believe 17 323s at present. Will that therefore mean 17 more 319 which will then stay for the extra services or will some be released when the new units arrive.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport is moving to the CLC route is it not when FTPE all goes over Chat Moss? They won't need/can't use 319's on the CLC route.

 

[deltic08]

Being discussed in the next Northern franchise thread are where the new EMUs are going to go, which includes the current 323 routes.
So I imagine the next franchise will eventually just have a small fleet of 319s mainly for Liverpool services.

Have I missed something here? What are these new EMUs for Northern?

 

[childwallblues]

Apparently 319's will be refurbished to operate the South Manchester services for a short interim period until new build stock arrives. 323's will be released almost immediately.

Current planned 319 refurbishments by the existing franchise are:
• Passenger information system
• Speaker replacement
• Wheelchair space
• Bike space
• Trial of media screens

There has been a sparks effect noted by Northern. Since introduction of 319's passengers on Liverpool-Wigan services have increased by 10% and Liverpool-Manchester by 11%.
There has also been an improvement in performance

On Time at Origin (OAO)/On time at Destination (OD)
Manchester Airport-Liverpool Route OAO 76.7% to 82.5%, OD 67.2% to 74.4%, PPM 90.9% to 92.8%
Liverpool-Wigan OAO maintained, OD 83.5% to 89.3%, PPM 95%

Good to see more people using the local services out of Liverpool and the improvements in unit performance.

 

[WatcherZero]

Have I missed something here? What are these new EMUs for Northern?

Arrivas winning bid included a lot of new build, 43 three and four car EMU and 55 two and three car DMU, though will mostly be for the Northern Connect branded services except for in the North East where the Northern Connect will be refurbished 158's and in South Manchester where new build will eventually replace the 323's (interim operated by 319's).

 

[1D53]

Hopefully they'll also have enough Piccadilly crews trained so that if a 323 fails that they can put a 319 on an Alderley Edge working opposed to the usual 142/150 which goes on Alderley Edge workings when they are a 323 down.

Are 319's cleared to Alderley Edge?

 

[swt_passenger]

Apparently 319's will be refurbished to operate the South Manchester services for a short interim period until new build stock arrives. 323's will be released almost immediately.

Are these the services where (according to much discussion in these forums over the last year or so) 319s cannot possibly keep up with the timings?

Or am I thinking of some other routes?

 

[northwichcat]

The Northern ITT mentioned an additional hourly Macclesfield service from Dec 17, yet this isn't mentioned on the DfT interactive map of improvements. Is the additional service up in the air due to the planned replacement of 323s which wasn't allowed for when the ITT was written?

 

[Viscount702]

The Northern ITT mentioned an additional hourly Macclesfield service from Dec 17, yet this isn't mentioned on the DfT interactive map of improvements. Is the additional service up in the air due to the planned replacement of 323s which wasn't allowed for when the ITT was written?

In fact it is mentioned under Stoke IIRC
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Liverpool to Manchester Airport is moving to the CLC route is it not when FTPE all goes over Chat Moss? They won't need/can't use 319's on the CLC route.

But at the same time the Liverpool - Victoria stopper will run to the Airport rather than Victoria

 

[WatcherZero]

Are these the services where (according to much discussion in these forums over the last year or so) 319s cannot possibly keep up with the timings?

Or am I thinking of some other routes?

Yes, its the routes that its thought 319's couldnt match timings without having a trailer removed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, its the routes that its thought 319's couldnt match timings without having a trailer removed.

All going to go pear shaped then?

 

[Greybeard33]

The Northern ITT mentioned an additional hourly Macclesfield service from Dec 17, yet this isn't mentioned on the DfT interactive map of improvements. Is the additional service up in the air due to the planned replacement of 323s which wasn't allowed for when the ITT was written?

There will be a 2 trains per hour Northern service for most of the day between Macclesfield and Manchester, with 9 extra off peak services. This will also benefit Poynton, Bramhall and Cheadle Hulme.

Sundays

Manchester-Macclesfield-Stoke will be a full hourly stopping service with 10 extra trains per day. This will benefit intermediate stations: Kidsgrove, Congleton, Prestbury, Adlington, Poynton and Bramhall. This also means Cheadle Hulme will get a full 2 trains per hour.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html